[Closed] Fraudulent bike shop?, What do you think?

What's the issue then ? You got a replacement frame for free, built for free ?

I did not get the replacement for free as i paid the 'deposit'

If you've only paid a deposit after cracking your frame then I think you should stay quiet* and enjoy riding it! You say yourself that the manufacturer wasn't going to provide a free replacement, so unlikely they just changed their mind without mentioning it

*or, because STW, own up and offer to pay the rest

I did not get the replacement for free as i paid the ‘deposit’

Well we don't know how much that was but fair point.

Is that a reasonable figure for the parts and work you've had done ?

i never spoke to the manufacturer directly it was always through the shop and if i did have something to pay the shop would have been aware by now. i believe the frame was free from the manufacturer but the shop i trying to wring cash out of me. the notion that the shop seemingly cant provide an invoice is suspect and then they asked for the price to find the invoice. Who titles their invoice files with the price and not the product/customer name? seems madness to me that its this much trouble for an established company to find an invoice

TBH mate i think you're making more of this than you need to.

Lets assume you get an answer and it says "The frame is £400, we'll send you the correct invoice today"

Would that make you happier ?

The shop didn't HAVE to waive the fitting cost, there's no requirement for them to spend 3 hours swapping your whole frame componentry over... they're completely within their rights to have done so.

yeah i'm unwilling to divulge specific numbers due to paranoia regarding employees of said bike shop being present on this forum and putting 2 and 2 together. But it would have been about half the price i was expecting to pay so i got a good deal but i would like to know where my money has gone and the fact they have not chased me for the rest says to me that i shouldn't have paid what i did

I sent this email 23/09 its now 24/09

24hrs isn't that long in the real world.

Re the monies involved, you won't (or at least most preprint wouldn't) have paid more as a deposit than the estimated cost so either the deposit/total was less than you expected (I'm going to guess 200 max since you didn't immediately query 114 more) and you're worried you've "ripped them off" or you're thinking you're owed change from <£300 for something you expected to cost at least that?

If its the former fess up, assuage your guilt and pay what you owe within reason.

If its the later stop pushing it - I think you'll be disappointed and end up finding out you owe more.

I would like to know where my money has gone and the fact they have not chased me for the rest says to me that i shouldn’t have paid what i did

That and the lack of invoice, along with the fact you've paid less than expected would very much suggest to me they've screwed up, not invoiced you enough and someone has processed it through at the shop as an foc warranty job, not a chargeable crash replacement, and they're paying for the frame.

I'll lay odds the ones out of pocket here are the shop, not you who has paid less than 50% of the price they were happy with.

Also, how, exactly, is an invoice from the bike shop going to prove where your money went unless what you really mean is you think Bob the mechanic has trousered your payment?

What do you think?

Possession is 9/10ths of the law. You have a bike that you are happy with. They have your deposit. If you pursue it, very little chance that you will get money back from them, some chance you will end up paying them more. Unless the shop tries to charge you more, I would just ride the bike and forget about it.

I sent this email 23/09 its now 24/09 and theirs no response.

I missed this bit...... made me chuckle

Weeksy they didn't have to waive the cost and i am grateful for that, and if this whole thing ends up costing me money i would be happier as the suspicion of being ripped off is worse than £100-200 is good. Don't you find it at all suspicious that they cant find my invoice and need to know what i paid to find it.

The deposit is probably just down as a random thing as they didn't have a product to book it to, which could make it hard to find if they are just searching through transactions.

Don’t you find it at all suspicious that they cant find my invoice and need to know what i paid to find it

TBH having seen a fair few workshops and invoice systems, not really 🙂 But that's a whole other discussion.

I'm often astounded people actually get their bikes back from some places when they take them in. Cycle shops IME are not very organised.

So basically the issue is, you think they got the frame for free from the supplier ?

Cable rub is a common issue - what you do is helitape those areas, then always check it - MTB cables wear through paint/frames due to the amount of grit.

I helitaped all the frame rub points upon getting my bike. Only replaced the tape on the fork crown. Far cheaper than new frames/fork crowns.

It's the way it is. How you've not noticed a groove wearing into the frame for 8 months I don't know. Tell tale signs are the paint goes first.

How is it the shop or manufacturer's fault for cable rub after 8 months use?

You thought it not safe but carried on riding it?

That is down to you - check more frequently and adjust often.

Adjust the cable so there is more cable in that area or put a spacer of some sort to prevent cable from rubbing.

The cable rub is from your use.

Sounds like you've managed a real bargain for a replacement so I'd suggest spending more time checking bike when cleaning it and enjoy the bargain price of the replacement.

It sounds a lot more like you're being paranoid and they're a bit disorganised.

Just tell them what you've paid them. Of course, they might be ripping you off, but what makes you think that now? Contact mfr directly if you like, but you'll look a bit of a dick.

I get you ... I'm sure the LBS was more aggressive about getting a warranty replacement when it's their money not yours BUT they aren't going to admit it if they did.
I guess its possible and what you're thinking that the earlier damage was their fault hence why they didn't try the warranty BUT now its cracked its warranty.

Right now you have a decent deal... and your reluctance to deal with them earlier (I also sympathise with) is only going to increase.

You'll never really know without dragging a whole load of crap along with you... and going out riding will be far more healthy mentally and physically.

As the shop said the frame itself is directly from the manufacture so the price is set by them and i am buying it through the shop. i want to pay the amount it costs hence why i want the invoice. the fact that i have asked for this invoice several times and still don't have it is suspect to me. Anyone have any idea as to why a price of the invoice is at all necessary to locating it on a computer

i want to pay the amount it costs hence why i want the invoice

Why ? The warranty will still expire at the same time whether you pay £0 or £1000 ?

Anyone have any idea as to why a price of the invoice is at all necessary to locating it on a computer

We have no idea, we don't work for the company, we don't even know who they are.

. i want to pay the amount it costs hence why i want the invoice.

The invoice won't tell you what it cost.

Do you mean you want their invoice from their supplier? If you do I know I'd be politely telling you to go fornicate alone were I in their shoes.

(edit: Also

To try and resolve this i asked for a invoice, weeks then pass

If you do, if the service dept is anything like ours at their supplier it'll be months before the shop get an invoice.)

Anyone have any idea as to why a price of the invoice is at all necessary to locating it on a computer

At a guess, because the invoice is nothing more than a credit card receipt at the moment, if they're lucky, stapled to a slip of paper saying something like deposit. They aren't trying to find your invoice, they're trying to create one which says "£350 crash replacement, 150 deposit paid dd/mm, build fee waived, total due £200"

Are you a regular user with a fake ID? Very odd first post on this forum.

For those saying the cable rub is my fault i get your point but personally i think a bike should be designed and assembled to not rub before its sold on but thats another discussion.

Weeksy- yes i believe thats what has happened

Stevextc - Yes you hit the nail on the head

...i think a bike should be designed and assembled to not rub before its sold on but thats another discussion.

Is this your first mountain bike!? There's a whole market in anti cable rub stickers and frame protection.

Time to move on and choose a new shop for your next purchase. I can't see much point in chasing something like this entirely on the principle that the shop "might" have been telling you porkies. It would be different if you were significantly out of pocket over the situation, but sounds more like you've actually lucked in here.

Muffin Man, The rub was under the BB, (not a place people tend to look at often) Normally with full outers that go under the BB and the bike been a Full sus, Most manufacturers will have some figure of the gap(loop) from BB to Outer/hose in the manual so when the suspension moves/full compressed it does not rip/rub/pull/gost shift etc cable/hose from it's position.

Though saying there are some systems you can set but if there is no way of "holding" the cable in place it move over time.

Anyone have any idea as to why a price of the invoice is at all necessary to locating it on a computer

Because it's not in the til in as "tomafox95's frame replacement deposit" it's one of 20 "Misc cash item" sales on that particular day as the guy on the counter was in a hurry?

Because it’s not in the til in as “tomafox95’s frame replacement deposit” it’s one of 20 “Misc cash item” sales on that particular day as the guy on the counter was in a hurry?

I have assumed that the manufacturer would supply an invoice with the frame and i have asked for that invoice. the shop informed that i am buying the frame directly off the mfr not from them so any invoice supplied with the frame from the mfr should be mine?

All i want is some documentation regarding the cost of my frame, the fact that the shop have not chased me for the rest of the frame money despite me bringing it to their attention makes me feel as if i don't own them any more money and if i don't own them any money i find it hard to believe the deposit was the total cost despite the owner estimating a higher price.

Is this your first mountain bike!? There’s a whole market in anti cable rub stickers and frame protection.

and there are also frame designs out there with questionable routing. e.g. Devinci changed that Django (think it was the Django anyway) as its cables would saw away the frame if they weren't absolutely perfect

Are the shop chasing you for more money, over the as yet undisclosed "deposit" you paid?

To be fair, it sounds to me like you complained about some normal wear and tear / lack of maintenance (cable rub doesn't appear over night to that extent), they brushed you off politely, then luckily for you your frame cracked and they sorted you with what is essentially a heavily (?) discounted crash replacement, which you haven't actually paid anything for.

What's the problem exactly?

All i want is some documentation regarding the cost of my frame

Why ?

Weeksy - because i believe what i paid for the frame is wrong whether the true value is more or less at this point i want to know

Steve_B77 - No they are not chasing me for anything and you may consider cable rub normal wear and tear but i don't as people above have pointed out they're many ways to prevent rub (e.g. stickers) and i still think to sell a product that through normal use results in potentially a written off frame after what is not along time i think is unacceptable. Cable rub is easily avoidable and that the fact that the onus is on the consumer and not the manufacturer or the person who assembled the frame to put in place measures is wrong. disagree with me if you may but i would like the industry to recognise this problem but i believe they conveniently ignore it as a lack of cable rub is not exactly a marketable feature and would intrude on other design requirements that are easily marketable e.g. aesthetics

Who says it wasn't your fault ? With cables that run under the BB all it takes is you to pull it slightly too tight and it's then you causing it to rub under suspension compression. Not the manufacturer, not the LBS, but you.... you may not have even known it at the time. But could easily have been your fault entirely.

Consider the fact if 20 out of 20 people are saying "Forget it and move on." then maybe you're like a dog with a bone for no reason.

It's possible the LBS spoke to the supplier and had some sort of reciprocal arrangement, maybe "Well if you buy 5 of these new bikes, we'll throw in the frame for that bloke" or we'll add it to another order some time down the line...
So they don't actually have a 'cost' defined, but one kind of exists.

No they are not chasing me for anything

So you've got a new frame, not paid anything for it and yet you are still complaining?

Cable rub is easily avoidable

I sincerely hope you've placed a patch of 'copter tape or similar protective sticker in the same place on your new frame, as you say, it's easily avoidable 😉

Weeksy – because i believe what i paid for the frame is wrong whether the true value is more or less at this point i want to know

So I'll repeat:

The invoice won’t tell you what it cost [them]

Also, how, exactly, is an invoice from the bike shop going to prove where your money went unless what you really mean is you think Bob the mechanic has trousered your payment?

Do you mean you want their invoice from their supplier?

Steve_B77 - As I've stated i have paid for the replacement and no i didn't but protective tape where it was rubbing the manufacturer did ;). For the record i am not complaining i am just trying to find out were my money was spent and i think that a perfectly reasonable desire

Dangeourbrain - the invoice would be from the manufacturer because according to the shop the transaction was between me and the mfr due to it being a crash replacement frame. And in my experience invoices usually state price, not sure about the bike world but i cant recall one where it did not have a price

Another thread to add to the 'Thank **** I don't have to work in a bike shop' file.

Dangeourbrain – the invoice would be from the manufacturer because according to the shop the transaction was between me and the mfr due to it being a crash replacement frame. And in my experience invoices usually state price, not sure about the bike world but i cant recall one where it did not have a price

OK, so, if it's between you and the mfr,
(a) why did you pay any deposit to the bike shop?
(b) why are you now asking the bike shop for an invoice for the frame (given they haven't sold it you)
(c) why not tell them how much you paid since the only invoice you should get from the shop is for the deposit you've (inexplicably) paid them.
(d) why not ask the mfr for your invoice since the transaction is between you and them?

Yes I'd expect a price on an invoice but very much I'd only expect the price I'm required to pay to be shown, no chance I'd expect supplier pricing to be shown. If that invoice is from the bike shop to you, it should show the price you pay to them. If its from the supplier to you I wouldn't expect it to go anywhere near the shop or be supplied by them.

As I’ve stated i have paid for the replacement and no i didn’t but protective tape where it was rubbing the manufacturer did ;). For the record i am not complaining i am just trying to find out were my money was spent and i think that a perfectly reasonable desire

For any of a large number of reasons you probably won't find out where your money went and even if you do...

I have assumed that the manufacturer would supply an invoice with the frame and i have asked for that invoice. the shop informed that i am buying the frame directly off the mfr not from them so any invoice supplied with the frame from the mfr should be mine?

Do you have that in writing ???
Like weeksy said, it could have been part of a deal, like others have said it's probably down as Misc...

I'm guessing not so in the end what would you do? (that's rhetoric)

What you might want to ask yourself is "would you rather be correct than happy".

Had a guy last week wanted to return his week old bike, loved the bike but disliked the Matt finish, didn't want a new bike or a refund though. Was wondering what we could do...... erm.....

having thought about it the shop said the frame a was directly from the factory and was bypassing the mfr uk distributor so technically i did purchase the frame from the shop so i assume that's why i paid a deposit that should clear up some hings

Having thought about it i realise i was incorrect earlier what i meant to say is that the frame was bought by the shop from the mfr (bypassed the Uk distributor)the only reason i know this is that they told me this was the case and therefore couldn't give me an accurate delivery date so yeah i did buy it from the shop i suppose. and i payed a deposit because i was asked to.

Sounds like you’re being framanoid
Lol

Ride On and be free my child

bypassing the mfr uk distributor

There is a reasonable chance that will screw any invoice you're hoping to see for the frame...

Bypassing most likely means the distributor issues the stock to the shop at 0 value having been issued credit by the manufacturer for an item they already have on stock.

Cable rub happens, doesn't matter how the bike is designed.

You are lucky they have replaced. How you've not noticed the damage in 8 months ? 5mm is a heck of a lot of rub, and it's in a dirty gritty part of the bike. You could have also accidentally pulled the cable a bit too tight - that happens also, hence checking !

Bikes are quite simple mechanical devices, but given the conditions mountain bikes get ridden in, you can't go leaving stuff to chance. I have heli tape at every point where the cable is likely to rub - just a small cut out stuck under the cables.

Got to love the blame culture !

I'm really confused.

You won't get a warranty replacement frame for cable rub or rock strikes in a millions years, yet you are complaining that you've ended up with a free frame and the shop didn't even charge you for the rebuild? Crack open the Champagne!

This sent alarm bells off in my head. i didn’t want to tell them as i believe they are going to make up a fake invoice so i told them i couldn’t remember

You telling them you couldn't remember is the fraudulent part of the debacle...

The most they appear to be doing is defrauding themselves, by giving you a good deal on a crash replacement and building it up for nowt.

OP: are you ok? Your posts are getting quite odd now. That little flurry of posts 40 minutes ago are quite disjointed.

Is there something else on your mind we could help with?

Got to love the blame culture !

Well, to be fair I half get the cable rub thing.
If I read the instructions with any mainstream component I get dire warnings of severe injury or death.. but they don't protect against cable rub?

Sounds like a right result unless I am going mental

1: I owe the shop money for the frame, 2: the frame costs the amount the deposit was(coincident?) 3: The frame was free from the manufacture and the shop has ripped me off. As the shop has not asked for payment for the frame i don’t think situation 1 is true and 2 seems too coincidental and that leaves me in situation 3.

I think if the shop was trying to rip you off they would have charged you for an outstanding balance on the frame.

It is more likely that because of the nonstandard nature of the transaction (the shop won’t have stock codes set up for crash replacement frames) that something has gone amiss with the admin.

I know of 2 separate people who have had no-fault crash replacements frames. In both cases they dealt with the distributor and not the shop. The fact that the shop is involved in this case may be the source of the confusion. Staff think it’s a warranty job and are acting accordingly, but in fact it isn’t.

Personally I don’t think you’ve been ripped off, but If you are concerned speak to the shop. That is where the answers will be. That said, bike shops aren’t always well run and you may be causing more problems for a shambles of a business.

I sometimes have to replace warranty items for customers. If I get an invoice from the manufacturer, whether a price has already been agreed between mfr. and customer or not, there's no way I'm going to show the customer that invoice. It's none of his business.

And I strongly suspect that the OP's local Halfords isn't going to show him the invoice for this Apollo frame, which is what I assume we're discussing.

Jeez, this thread is more confusing than the Three Handlebars One Dog photo on the handlebars thread.

The manufacturer offered me a crash replacement frame for a discounted price, I agreed based on the shop owner saying that it should cost around £300 -350 he could not give me an exact price. He then offered to omit the cost of the frame build up which was nice and i accepted and i dropped off my bike and paid a deposit.

the new frame arrived and was assembled, I picked it up i was charged £114 initially i thought this to be the remainder of the cost of the frame but i realised the receipt stated it was for the frame build up. I called the shop and they refunded this charge. This refund means that i’m in one of three situations, 1: I owe the shop money for the frame, 2: the frame costs the amount the deposit was(coincident?) 3: The frame was free from the manufacture and the shop has ripped me off. As the shop has not asked for payment for the frame i don’t think situation 1 is true and 2 seems too coincidental and that leaves me in situation 3.

I'd say there's a fourth situation, which is most likely the one you're in:

The frame wasn't free from the manufacturer, it was discounted. You were quoted a price, which you were happy with, and you paid a deposit, which is presumably only a minor proportion of that price. You also got a free build-up, which is a bonus. The shop gets the frame, builds it up, charges you for the build-up, apologises and cancels that fee, leaving you with a fully built bike and a brand new frame, having paid only the cost of the deposit. The shop fumbles its paperwork and appears not to charge you any further amount.

If that were me, I'd admittedly be wary of being sent a bill at some unknown point in the future, but if I were confident that wouldn't be happening (ie I'd get an email from the shop saying that as far as they were concerned it was all done and dusted) I'd very much consider that to be landing on my feet.

The one issue I can see arises if you didn't accurately phrase the statement "the manufacturer offered me a crash replacement frame for a discounted price". If you know that was the manufacturer's offer, ie you saw/heard some communication sent directly from them, then all is well and good and I think you can be confident you're not being ripped off. If what you got was the shop owner telling you he could get a discounted frame and you suspect he's got one for free then I suppose you might be rightly peeved—but you'd have to be quite cynical to reach that conclusion, because it's pretty bloody rare that manufacturers hand out free frames when you've had a rock strike on an 8 month old one.

Seems to me there's a 99.9% chance you've come out on top and the bike shop is the one losing money.

But then it's kinda hard to figure out what the facts are in this one-sided tale.

Crash replacement will not have been free, not because of a rock strike.
Stop bitching on the internet and go and ride your heavily discounted new frame, ffs 🙄

All i want is some documentation regarding the cost of my frame

Too bad.

You have no relationship with the manufacturer. None. Zero. Your legal contract of sale is with the shop.

Any money changing hands, or not, between you and the shop is - oddly enough - down to you and the shop to negotiate and agree upon. You've agreed a a cost of £300-£350, have paid a third of it so far, they're not chasing you for the rest so quite why you're pulling your face about that I cannot fathom. Your entire argument is essentially "they've charged me a hundred quid when they should have charged me three hundred, the bastards!"

Whether the bike shop got the frame for free, paid £300 or £10,000 for it is simply not your concern, it's none of your business and you have no rights to demand that information. You wouldn't buy a bag of apples from Tesco and then demand to see the receipt from their distributor, would you? Could even be that an individual receipt for that frame doesn't exist as they bought a consignment of ten frames that day.

It boils down to this: do you think the price quoted by the shop was fair? If no, why did you agree to it? If yes, what are you complaining about? Anything else is whataboutery I'm afraid.

Had a guy last week wanted to return his week old bike, loved the bike but disliked the Matt finish, didn’t want a new bike or a refund though. Was wondering what we could do…… erm…..

Sell them some paint?

I see Marks STW Thread Generator 3000 is working well.

Threads like these are why I love this forum! You couldn’t make it up 😂

I reckon the replacement frame is stuffed with high-grade coke and the shop are using you as a county lines drugs mule. I bet you’ve got a trip planned to the Elan Valley or some other hotbed of vice and depravity, haven’t you, OP?

yeah i’m unwilling to divulge specific numbers due to paranoia regarding employees of said bike shop being present on this forum and putting 2 and 2 together

I'm sure that any bike shop employee that's only yesterday been emailed about an invoice query on a rock and cable damaged frame they had in for a £114 frame build up that they later refunded will be totally unable to put 2 and 2 together from the information already provided...I mean they all blur into one, don't they!

What Cougar says. You agreed a contract and price, paid part, got the frame and that's it. You might get charged the full agreed amount, or not. Latter is bonus.

What the shop did to get the frame and whether they got it free from manufacturer or bloke down the pub is none of your business.

Having waived the build fee, I'd say it's all even. You've ended up paying probably what the frame cost or the build fee.

Something else just occurred to me.

It may well be that the shop offered to waive the build fees because they knew they could get the frame at a discounted rate. If they were paying full whack they might not have made that offer in the first place. I don't know how long it takes for an experienced bike mechanic to transplant an entire bike's components, set it all up and test it, but I'd expect it's several hours' work for which a wage will need to be paid plus any consumables.

Your beef appears to be that you suspect that the bike shop is turning a profit in this exchange. I hate to break it to you, but that's how shops stay in business.

I'm just waiting for the "lbs sent me a bill for the balance of work done 13 days ago!? Eh should I pay" thread

There’s another scenario where the shop was told replacement frame would be, say, £400 and the customer pays £200 deposit, balance to pay.

When talking to their account manager, he agrees to wave it as goodwill. Customer saves £200, shop makes £200.

OP would probably say in this instance he wants his £200 back, but he only got the replacement at £200 because of the shop’s relationship with the company/account manager.

My guess is the shop haven’t been invoiced yet, and have just forgot to charge the balance on a non-stock item - and that there will be a bill coming soon for the difference to the OP.

You should have an invoice even if its FOC to create a paper trail and to give you some sort of warranty on the replacement frame with out the correct doccumentaion with frame # if the new frame fails you could find it hard to prove you had it new espcially if the relation breaks down between you and the shop which its sounds like it is doing.

You should have an invoice even if its FOC to create a paper trail and to give you some sort of warranty on the replacement frame

Warranties are on the original purchase, from the original purchase date, so the original invoice is all you need. If it gets replaced, you don’t get a new warranty/extension, unless stated otherwise.

I'm confused. Is the answer Brexit?

If like to add that the cable rub should of been noticed when you were washing your bike. This is when you should be inspecting the frame for damage, that's why it pays to wash your bike properly from time to time.

eddiebaby

Member

I’m confused. Is the answer Brexit?

Agreed, sounds like they are dis-organised rather than fraudulent.