http://www.singletrackworld.com/2010/02/fox-forks-gain-shiny-coats
Hi,
Seems according to the recent press release
on the front page of STW that Fox are revising the maufacturing process on their stanchions to deal with wear issues. At Last. This surely is an admission that there was a problem before, despite fox's previous repeatedly blaming any wear issues on poor maintainance and denying any reponsibililty to warranty?
Perhaps we now have ammunition we need to get some consumer power going?
Please could you email me with your stories, copied here too if you like with the following info:
Model / year
Date / place of purchase or are they OEM?
Did you follow the service guidelines?
Problem, costs associated, and fox's response to any warranty issues.
send to peternadin@btinternet.com
I will try and collate the responses and publish the results. Together we m ay actually be able to get fox/mojo to beahve reposnsibly towards their obligations on an allegedly premium quality product.
Peter
Fox Talas RLC 2006
Bought from LBS early 06 and used on cove hustler, then swapped to cotic soul
Didn't do anything to them other than keep them fairly clean
No problems whatsoever, no stanchion wear. Flawless performance
2008 Fox F120 RLC bought direct from Noah's Ark in early 2008.
Flawless performance for 2 years despite the lack of servicing. 😳
Fox TALAS 36 '09: maintained as per instructions, flawless performance
Fox F120 '09: Ditto
Fox 32 Vanilla '09: Ditto
Fox 32 140 Float RLC '10: too early to tell, but I'll maintain it and I'm sure it will continue to display the excellent performance I've had from it so far.
F120 will be up for sale soon if anyone wants to share my enjoyment of it.
Now, where is the Rockshox failure thread?
2008 Revelation: travel loss, stanchion wear (continued even after service from reputable UK suspension service outfit looked at it)
2008 Lyrik 2 Step Air - repeated failure of 2 Step TA. Finally got a replacement and ebayed it straight off.
Erm isn't the stated purpose of the coating to reduce friction rather than increase durability?
And it's not getting done to all models either.
I don't see how it's an admission myself, but good luck with the campaign. Has no one tested this through trading standards or in the courts?
2007 FLoat R, 140mm - OEM
Serviced once a year by LBS, kept clean by me
No problems at all
Haha, this thread is an awesome fail!
2006 F100 - maintained well, flawless!
2009 36 Talas - maintained well, flawless!
Though i should add friends fox too...
07 40 - Very little maintenance, no problems.
08 40 - Maintaned well, no problems.
07 32 - Pretty much zero maintenance, no problems.
2005 Float R OEM
serviced every 6 months
No problems what so ever.
Several sets over lots of years never had a problem.!!
I think the only problem is some of the customers who buy em
then never even show there bike an oily rag.
Talas 36 150mm (talas 1 air adjust)
Talas 36 160mm Rc2 (Talas 2 air adjust)
Vanilla 36 Rc2
Float R 130mm
Vanilla 125mm
Vanilla 130mm
Vanilla 140mm
All fine, stuck fairly closely to maintenance guidelines, apart from the one 140mm vanilla which I'm seeing how long they'll last with nothing done, seals just starting to weep after 16 months or so of fairly hard riding in south Wales.
The issues seem to arise as a result of use of proprietary caustic cleaners (despite what the manufacturers call them) and overly vigorous use of jet washes/hoses on to seals. Causing a dirt ingress and forcing water dispersing/degreasing cleaners into the forks. The type of soil in your area will effect it to e.g Thetford sandiness would be like grinding paste!
Any problems that are manufacturing issues e.g if the coating had gone through in the first month would be sorted without question in my experience. Mojo are pretty good on warranty.
Some of the fox forks will be more prone to wear due to having less lubricating oil in the legs to 'soak up' any solid that get in the closed cartridge (FIT) forks run a fair bit less, so that may have a bearing on it too.
2008 f100 rlc
do the seal service when i recon its time.
no bother so far.
2005 Float RLC, never serviced, quick clean when needed. no problems
2006 Float RLC, as above
2008 Talas, No problems to speak of.
2009 F120, no problems
2009 F100, no problems.
Sorry.
It has to be said my Vanillas have been faultless for 20 months or so now. Never been serviced, just some lube under the seals now and then.
I do know someone who had the stanchion wear problems a few years ago, but to be fair he's not one for looking after bikes all that well, and I know a lot of people with Fox forks with no issues at all. I know of one old pair of 125mm Vanillas that must be 5 years or more old, still in perfect nick, still in very regular use.
Fox changing their coating on stanchions is not necessarily an admission that they were bad before.
[i]Perhaps we now have ammunition we need to get some consumer power going?[/i]
I doubt it
Peakmonster - that is right.
End of the day the issue is this, IMO. Fox are moving more or all of the forks to FIT dampers. Already, those that didn't have FIT dampers (e.g. my '09 F120) had low oil volumes in the left lower, with a sealed air spring having it's own lubricant internally (and hence the need for less oil in the spring side). In the damper side the oil bath in the lower has a larger volume (~4.5 x the volume of the spring side in the case of the F120). Added benefit of this of course is that there is plenty of oil to lubricate the upper and the bushes in the lower. This is why some report wear occurring preferentially on the left side and have, IMO, erroneousnly associated it with braking forces in some way.
Now, with the FIT dampers, the free oil volume in the lowers on both sides is less - a function of moving to said dampers, which I have to say perform excellently if the 2010 Float 32 is anything to go by. It does mean that care and attention may be needed to ensure the small oil volume in the lower is sufficient to keep the bushes lubed. A compromise perhaps but one I can live with as doing this service in no big deal.
End of the day, if you don't like the service schedule, don't buy them.
Oh dear, hasn't gone well.
Don't own any myself (too poor) but if it's any consolation everyone I know that's owned a 36 vanilla has had big problems. Same problem on all, damping cartridge blown. But the stanction wear has only happened in one case and he was riding in Whistler (happened after six weeks though). He has no good things to say about em.
My 2004 TALAS had stanchion wear and I did as instructed by Fox.
2005 FLoat 80RL, 80mm - OEM
Never been serviced, turn bike upside down to keep seals moist, kept clean by me
No problems at all
My 2004 TALAS had stanchion wear and I did as instructed by Fox.
Which is what? My 2004 floats are wearing through the anodizing as well.
IMO all fox have wrong is the seals they use...they let oil out and crap in (hence the short service intervals). If they got a better quality sealing system then this problem (for folk who dont like oil 😀 ) would be dramatically reduced.
Which is what? My 2004 floats are wearing through the anodizing as well.
Lift the seals add lube, turn bike upside down, eat a virgins spleen under a blue moon, that sort of thing.
I should add mine started to wear within 12 months.
Lift the seals add lube,
For me thats not the proper way...crap in the seal stays in the seal. Only proper way is to remove lowers compleatly and clean.
For me thats not the proper way
Quite possibly, but at the time those were the instructions given by Fox or Mojo, can't remember which.
2008 32 Floats, no issues.
2009 32 Vanillas, no issues.
I probably do about 50-75km a week spread over the two bikes. Always wipe the stanchions clean and once a month I put some finish line wet lube on, pump the forks round the car park and wipe clean.
It probably gets the occasional over night storage upside down.
Quite possibly, but at the time those were the instructions given by Fox or Mojo, can't remember which.
Should have pointed out that mojo have changed their reccommended quick lube procedure from lifting seals to removing lowers. Bad early practice from mojo?
I don't have any fox forks but, if I had 2, I reckon one would be expensive and the other absolutely the same
maybe I could go down as a don't know ?
2005 Vanilla R 130 never touched them - seals just started to leak but stantions fine.
2009 Float 32 RLC second hand off here too early to tell but will try to look after these better!
2006 Rockshox Pike- Like a pogo stick (something replaced- cant remember)
2009 Rockshox Pike- blown moco
2009 Rockshox Lyrik- siezed compression Cartridge replaced
All these forks were brand new/bought new by me.
Especially on the Pikes- they are supposed to have very simple and bombproof internals.
I honestly think the stanchion wear on Foxs (especially in the nook of the brace is users not cleaning after every ride.
Which is what? My 2004 floats are wearing through the anodizing as well.
But it is 2010.
My 2004 TALAS had stanchion wear and I did as instructed by Fox.Which is what? My 2004 floats are wearing through the anodizing as well
i wouldnt be unhappy about having anodizing wearing off a 6 year old set of forks (as long as they have been used a reasonable amount).
How long do you expect it to last?
Some Mazzi 55ATA, Warrantied by Windwave, they sent me some Talas instead
The complaints re Rockshox et al: WTF do you think Fox iwll do about that? LOL111
Not one single problem with any of the Fox forks (5) Ive used or rear shocks (3). I dont really understand what the issue here is?
I've had three pairs of vanilla's - they are the best fork I've owned. The first two did wear out, stantion anodising and bushes, three and a half years. I serviced them myself - new seals and oil, once IRC. I have a pair of 07 on my 5spot, it doesn't get used that much, haven't even changed the oil on them. I tip the fork upside down when I remember and keep the seals clean, I've also lifted the seals for a clean once.
They are a great fork, but something could be done on bush/stantion wear IMO. I think they put the bare minimum oil in them, to keep weight down - maybe an issue.
I've got some coil revs, a year old TF tuned as well, and I've noticed some scores/wear on the anodising there!
I have a set of fox vanillas I bought a few years ago from a mate knowing they were goosed. Wore out stanchions and bushes in a years use but I have no idea how he serviced them - probably not at all.
There are a lot of tales of foxes of this generation wearing out the stanchions on one side - simply because there is only a couple of teaspoonfuls of oil in that side so unless you invert the fork every ride the bushes run dry and wear quickly on the one side.
I pout 150 ml of oil in them rather than 15 ml and the wear stopped as splash lubrication now works.
anything with a 15 hr service interval is unacceptable IMo. Its a consequence of the design of these forks that they are like that. either invert after every ride and follow the service schedule, add a lot more oil to the empty side or put up with a shot life - or buy open bath marzocchis where this cannot happen 'cos the splash lubrication works due to having large oil volumes
32mm Talas bought second hand. Slight scoring on one stanchion and tiny oil leak when I bought them which gradually got a bit worse. Sent them for repair via my LBS and they came back with new sliders, stanchions, crown and steerer for £180 (ie. just the old internals reused)
32mm Talas Terralogic bought second hand. Tiny leak from one seal. Asked about replacement seals at the Fox distributor stand at Mountain Mayhem last year. They stripped the forks and fitted new seals free of charge while I waited. No problems since.
Float RLC 03 Regularly removed seals and added float fluid to foam rings. Stanchions show a little wear but are fine. Seals keep blowing though which is annoying.
04 to date vanilla rl's=flawless
05 to date talas rlc's=flawless
06 to date talas 36 rc2's=flawless
09 to date (6 months) talas rlc's= flawless
09 to date (5 months) talas 36 rc2's=flawless
all serviced infrequently with a quick oil change and float fluid on foam rings and the 05 talas pushed in 08 by tf
EDIT i also run some paper between the seal and stantion to pull any dirt/grit out when the seals are lifted
lol, so who's going to mail a link to this thread to fox?
Like I said, regarding the service intervals, like it or lump it. If you think it unacceptable buy something else.
Anyway, doesn't look like there are too many takers for the consumer crusade.
F80X / 2004/5
Christmas 04 / EBC
Did you follow the service guidelines? Don't think so, they were washed down with the rest of the bike, the seals lifted every 3 months and fluid added to them, but that was it - never sent off for a service.
Problem, costs associated, and fox's response to any warranty issues - none, they were great forks if a little pricey!
F100RL / 2005/6
Nov 05 / OEM on Giant Trance 1
Did you follow the service guidelines? Doubt it - washed with rest of bike, seals lifted every 3 months and fox fluid added - sent off to Mojo once in the 4 years I had them.
Problem, costs associated, and fox's response to any warranty issues - only 1 issue - rode at Laggan and after getting to car park, shock oil was all over bottom of fork - sent to Mojo and serviced - repaired for free and rest of service done.
2009 / Fox F120 RL
May 2009 / OEM on Marin Mount Vision 5.8
Did you follow the service guidelines? Nope, washed with rest of bike, not lifted seals yet and not sent them for a service yet - not issues with them so far though. Service will be done in May.
Problem, costs associated, and fox's response to any warranty issues - no problems so far.
If I didn't have them with the bike when bought I suspect I wouldn't be riding Fox forks - they are good but very pricey compared to competition and from what I've tried, seen and read, the competition is just as good if not better (being cheaper).
Fox 32 Van - never serviced and never had problems for 2 years. Flawless.
Fox 36 Van - seals changed by LBS and kept clean by me. No problems and great performance.
The above two forks were ridden daily in all sorts of foul weather and muck.
Fox 36 Talas - seals swapped and serviced by LBS/Mojo. No problems and great performance.
My Totems, Pikes and Lyrik DH's have all followed similar servcing and have been flawless as well.
Haha, the fox backlash backlash begins! This thread would have gone quite a different way about 6 months ago...
That said, I've got a set, reasonable use in manky conditions, look perfect. BUT thats because I've been doing the 15 hour service, and like TandemJeremey, I'm not so happy about having to service them every fifteen hours, simple or not.
I'm going on a 15-20 day off road tour in may, at an average of 5 hours riding a day in typical Scottish Highland's conditions. Am i going to have to remove the lowers, clean and lubricate 5 times in that period? I'm not about to throw a bottle of 7wt suspension fluid in with my camping gear...
Tandem, do you notice any difference to the performance by adding oil to the spring side? Based on my experiences with old (read good) marzocchis, adding oil would affect the performance (as the remaining air volume compressed).
I always thought it would be a cool idea to biuld an oil pump into forks, just a pipe with a non-return valve (or two for relibility) in it, so that when the fork compressed if would displace the small ammount of oil up to the area between the seals and bushings, the fork extending would then create a partial vacumn in the lowers, sucking the oil back down through the bushings.
Tandem, do you notice any difference to the performance by adding oil to the spring side? Based on my experiences with old (read good) marzocchis, adding oil would affect the performance (as the remaining air volume compressed).
Shoudlnt do has fox seals arent designed to hold air (like marz seals are). I would think 150ml is over the top, but im sure putting 30-50ml in wouldnt do any harm.
13th - it ramps up a bit maybe - the seals did not blow. There is a lot of empty space in the non damper side - I estimated around 400ml so 150 ml of oil didn't cause hydraulic lock. You could add oil till it was full and work this out but I guestimated on 150 ml. With the fork fully compressed the oil level is around the top bush and the whole of the stanchion above this is still empty space
You can tell it works 'cos there are oil rings appear on the stanchion on the worn side showing oil is getting to the top bush
Fox 36 Talas bought on a s/h 06 Enduro.
The lowers cracked where the pinch bolts are (warrantied by Mojo) in mid-08, even though I only had a s/h receipt (thanks to my LBS - Bucks Bikes). Serviced at the same time.
Only used intermitantly since as I have a pair of 'trail' forks. Probably could do with another service as the Talas is 'struggling'.
Good quality product, but need far more tlc than my everyday RS forks.
The seals do still hold air - not totally airtight perhaps but you do not get air whooshing out every time the fork is compressed
13th - the other thing to do is invert the bike every night - the dribble of oil will get to the top bush that way
they don't make a fork to compare with totems, so I can't comment.
2 pairs of PUSH'd pikes here with no issues.
lots of Fox forks spewing oil in the alps last time I was there, seems to me a seal issue rather than anything else (dust + water = bunged up seal).
Suspect the anodising thing is spin.
I know of one old pair of 125mm Vanillas that must be 5 years or more old, still in perfect nick, still in very regular use.
Well I have the very first model of vanilla 125. It's fubar, but only after 6 years of intensive riding and only 2 change of seal.
The 3 other fox I have/had are so far perfect.
You're probably all pros, but I came across this how-to guide on servicing Fox Forks a couple of days ago that has a nice pictorial walk-through.
http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/article/workshop-service-the-seals-on-your-fox-32-fork-25020
Drillski has left the building...presumably to go and buy some float fluid?
Fox 32 Van 06
Still on original seals and bushes
Puffered, 10 undered and 5ft to flat dropped,
Flawless.
Thanks Tandem, I think I'll go for 60ml or so and just invert them every night.
I'm sure a mid-trip service wouldn't be out of the question, but last time I serviced them I knocked the bike over, cue huge flood of suspension fluid from the damping side. Do that on the trail and things could get intesting...
offers superior durability, hardness, and less friction
In reply to the post above that said the new coat was for friction only, not from the link.
I don't own any fox forks, my bombers have lasted me 10 years with sod all servicing, no problems 🙂
[i]Haha, this thread is an awesome fail![/i]
🙂
2006 Vanilla Rs - no problems or wear, serviced once (+new seals) Sold to mate, still ok.
2007/8 Vanilla Rs - no problems or wear. Bought 2nd hand. Not touched.
2007 Float Xs - no problems or wear. Low mileage though.
just a quick question to all the people with flawless forks, how are you checking for wear? as if you don't pull the lowers off you can't always see the damage.
LBS's I use comment on the durability of fox forks, as they see lots of knackered sets, however they all agree that they do work the best, even if you pay a huge for it
Depending on the year of fork, inverting them might cause damage...earlier forks - pre-07 can be done, but later forks apparently can cause damage - but I'm not clear what damage. I have noticed if I store my bike on it's back wheel my lockout fails to work for a few big compressions to get everything back in place, I'm guessing it's down to oil being in not quite the right place or something.
i do pull the lowers off to change the oil and they are fine, but i do the paper/stantion thing when just lifting the seals and putting float fluid in the foam rings and you can see the muck being pulled out so worth doing imo
After inverting the forks or laying the bike down for any period of time for that matter, you need to bleed the damper cartridge if they're not FIT carts. that is.
Put the rebound to full slow and compress slowly 3 or 4 times job done.
Turning your forks upside down will not cause damage either.
My 2003(?) TALAS lasted for 5 years with pretty much no effort on my part.
Finally started leaking oil and I noticed loads of wear on the front and rear of one stanchion.
I'm not too upset after that length of time, but on the other hand, the 2001 Marzocchis (now on my hack / commuter)are still showing no wear at all.
2008 Float 32 RL
Changed the oil once in the last two years. Still original seals.
Tend to store bike upside down when not in use.
No signs of stantion wear and no problems whatsoever.
🙂
2x 200? - original Vanilla R 125mm, god knows how old....never really serviced, just kept clean around the seals
one set sold after 3 years to a friend, who also never serviced them but i belive did change the oil in 2008? still working perfectly
the other set I still have, I took the lowers off last week and changed the oil, still seem to be the same as when i got them on the inside, most of the paint has chipped off the outside but you can't really blame fox for that 🙂
2007 OEM Vanilla 32's - lubed the seals once but nothing more, completely faultless, great forks.
stuartanicholson
LOL NO ITS NOT.
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Mate of mines Had them 3-4months light work nothing too drastic tho, & then started sticky,feeling Knotchy,etc .
Few stantion wear marks LIGHT at 1st so i serviced them for him..
& WOW these were lurking under the lowers LOL
2004 Talas - ridden on an Enduro for three years, then put on my commuter. No maintenance, and no wear, but bushings are probably shot, and there is oil leaking out of the seals.
2008 Pikes - stanchion wear after 14 months of fortnightly usage, this with oil changes and services regularly.
yeah, you really need to take them apart to know whether you've got the stanchion wear as it isn't usually obvious on the exposed bits of an assembled fork
Mate of mines Had them 3-4months light work nothing too drastic tho, & then started sticky,feeling Knotchy,etc .
Few stantion wear marks LIGHT at 1st so i serviced them for him..
& WOW these were lurking under the lowers LOL
Cant believe thats from 3-4 months light use! I serviced a mates pike last year...06 pike air, never serviced, powerwashed to death and ridden alot...it had 2" mud (yes mud, not gloop!) in the bottom of the spring leg...looked pretty similar to those.
You can see where the bush and seals sit, and that there is a massive wear patch above those. Not saying that it all occurs above, but mose wear will come from the top bush, which just happens to be the one that slides over visible stanction.
Bought a pair of very basic '06 Vanillas in '05. Had two big issues with them:
1) Rode them in the Alps in '05 not long after purchase and the damping stuck 'on' halfway thru the holiday (forks would compress, but take 30seconds to rebound...). Sent them back to the shop under warranty who sent them off for repair. Some manufacturing grease had clogged the little hole, by all accounts.
2) Not long after, I sent them to Flooksy for a service. He told me the stanchions were ****ed. Anodising had worn off and new ones would cost a couple of hundred quid. Think the 203mm rotor (to which the forks WERE warranted - I checked) create too much torsion and the bushing scraped away at the stanchion.
I didn't bother kicking up of a fuss. It was about the time that everybody else was complaining and Fox were being very unhelpful. Just decided to run them into the ground. Five years later and they're *just* about to expire :O)
Jonnyvegas, do you mates use jet washes and muc off or other caustic bike wash by any chance??
That white oxidation would suggest so.
Bike cleaner is a degreaser! so ain't great inside forks.
I expect Mojo told them the same thing. 🙄
JV what did you use as lube oil? Plaster diluted with water?
i have some worn fox vanillas....they r great... only one side is worn.
how are you checking for wear? as if you don't pull the lowers off you can't always see the damage.
I get mine serviced annually by an LBS for half the price of Mojo. From all the horror stories I assumed they'd be knackered on my mileage but they were, I quote, pristine.
To be fair, I've not had the Vanillas done yet but based on my floats, I'm not overly concerned.
Still no Drillski.... 🙄
Fox Float R 130 supplied on an Orange 5 , purchased 2006
Never serviced, and never had any problems (touches wood!!)
Good to hear so many good reports i suppose. Not quite what i was expecting if i was honest, so i assume Fox will as per. I can only point out that my atttention to maintainance, after the first episode especialy was slavish. I became an expert on removing the lowers, nearer to every 10 hours if truth be told. Still the same problems. I have never used a jet wash on any mountain bike or motorcycle of mine, and also avoid the cleaners you mention for the reasons mentioned.
Perhaps i have just been unlucky..... but unlike this thread, i seem to meet alot of people elswhere who have similar stories.
Thanks to everyone for their replies so far, keep them coming, both sides of the coin are appreciated.
Drillski
2008 120RL 32 Floats that came with my Stumpy FSR. Stanchion wear after 2 months and total shock failure after 4... NOT! 🙄
Sorry, been totally flawless with one service a year ago and careful clean by me after a mucky ride. 🙂
Kev
2008 F120s
Cleaned carefully every ride, serviced after 1 year
They work. No signs of wear yet
2002 vanillas still going strong no prob, 2006 vanillas no probs 2004 talas no probs(not as nice as vanillas),2005 talas 36s no probs .mind you had fox air can on 2003 enduro absolute sack of sh2t. 😀
i've got some 5 year old vanillas that i bought from new. they have been used and used, and i keep my bike clean but i haven't really done much to the forks
they had new seals at 2 years, and a full service last year by TF. apparently the stanctions are starting to wear, but aren't too bad yet
considering how quickly other top end stuff wears out (e.g. XTR) i'm quite happy with 5 years hard use, and they're not dead yet
i've had 2 sets of TALAS's - don't know about stanction wear but they both rode like crap, and according to my scales weren't much lighter than the vanillas