they are not on fast "pedally" sections
Many of mine are 🙂
@Northwind you're not coming accross as a dick, you're just not listening to other opinions and facts (and that's what the Internet is all about...). As I've repeatedly said, the masses of real world evidence contradicts your pseudoscience assembled from internet forums. I don't mind what you believe, but you won't convince me to ignore measured evidence collected by myself and my friends over thousands of miles. Yes, the tyres roll differently. What you're ignoring (again and again) is that this gives positives as well as negatives. Slightly reduced rolling resistance due to rubber/carcass movement is more than offset by improved rollover due to size and shape. Rolling resistance measurement only measures one of these factors because that site is squarely aimed at showing the best tyre model from a construction perspective. Other factors are excluded to compare one variable and only one variable (also, his machine would kill itself if it had uneven bumps!).
This is why 29ers roll better than 27.5 which roll better than 26 too. Those also have nothing to do with tyre construction.
I'm faster on my Fatbike (dude) than my 5.
Last time I rode my 5 I didn't enjoy it because of how much slower I was on it, this was just on local trails/bridle paths.
I put around 14psi front 12psi rear.
I don't get what all the fuss is about with the rolling resistance debate. I couldn't care less quite frankly. I have a Cube Nutrail with the 4.4" JJ's. It rolls very well and I'm able to go quicker downhill on it than my full sus trail bike.
Having beefed the brakes up, sorted the bar width and gone tubeless, it's easily the most fun bike I've ever ridden. That's all that matters for me. Doubt I'll be riding it for a few days after this weather though!
I'll take it right back to the basics. You understand that the Jumbo Jims are faster rolling than the Kenda Juggernauts, right? But the juggernaut is a lower, more sloped tread tyre. They have roughly the same thickness. And the JJs actually have a softer rubber too. So where do you think the rolling resistance coming from?Similarly, you probably know that tubeless rolls faster than tubed. But do you know why? It's the exact same thing- the extra rubber requires a constant force to deform it. 5-10 watts, dependent on pressure, with a jumbo jim.
With Northwind here, i find my fat bike has its "own pace" that there is a speed that off road but relatively flat i can hold easily, but to go that extra 4-5mph you seem to have to double the effort almost.
requires a constant force to deform it
why does this constant force increase out of proportion with the speed when you go faster?
Mine (Scott Big Jon) is the fastest bike I've ever ridden in a crushingly unstoppable kind of way. Strava says it's between 15 and 40 seconds/mile quicker than my other bikes.
It has a kind of elastic energy that propels it along even when I ease off a bit. It's the only bike I've ever ridden where I sometimes have to dab the brakes going uphill 🙂
Just to show it off, i've just finished building this as the weekend, it's 4ibs lighter than last fat bike, so hoping it'll ride that way too.
Interested to see what the Alpkit bars are like to as it'll be used a lot for bikepacking.
[img][url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4275/34967028082_c490eb8ae8.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4275/34967028082_c490eb8ae8.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/VgVadw ]1[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/49281217@N02/ ]Scud75[/url], on Flickr[/img][img][url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4270/35131605995_ca87324f88.jp g" target="_blank">
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https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4206/34286961754_b2045cdeab.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/UePDc1 ]4[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/49281217@N02/ ]Scud75[/url], on Flickr[/img][img][url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4236/35131605535_7ee80f33a9.jp g" target="_blank">
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Nice bike, scud!
I'm not in either camp here, not really felt a speed limit from effort any more than I have on a different bike. Speed limit for me comes more from the fine balance of tyre pressures.
Pressures on the low end give you that magic carpet ride, which puts a smile on your face at low to medium speeds, but pushed hard into corners at higher speeds gets you into squirmy trouble, same with trying to turn it into steep switchbacks hard on the brakes - straight on!
Put a few more psi in and you lose that small bump compliance, the tyres absorb less of the force, but have the ability to resist more force on bigger bumps and higher side loads/braking loads.
Thanks Ned
There definitely is a sweet spot for the tyres, but find that the sweet spot for the beach is different often to that riding rocky/rooty stuff.
@Painey you don't notice because you run JJs! Put some Kenda Juggernauts on and you'll feel why rolling resistance matters, the drag is unbelievable!
My go to bike, but every ride is slow as everyone from 10yr old kids to 80 year old blokes want to talk about it!!
My go to bike, but every ride is slow as everyone from 10yr old kids to 80 year old blokes want to talk about it!!
@Painey you don't notice because you run JJs! Put some Kenda Juggernauts on and you'll feel why rolling resistance matters, the drag is unbelievable!
I had a look at them and they do look like they'd be draggy as hell! I must admit I only tend to use my fat bike when it's dry. Chiefly because on the South Downs where I live, when it's wet you get very slippery chalk and it's tricky get grip anywhere with big tyres. Also because fat bike tyres aren't cheap, I ride one of my other bikes.
Must admit, I've also been thinking about changing the frame on mine for something carbon.
Here's something carbon:
[img] 
[/img]
[url= http://www.carbonspeedbikes.com/ ]Carbonspeed[/url] CS-197 frame and matching carbon wheels. 25lbs with a dropper post, 1x10 and JJ 4s.
All this lightweight stuff, I don't know. My puffin comes in at 34lbs single speed, so easily beats that.
Just a brief update on the Puffin, for whoever might be remotely interested. Third ride on Saturday - different again. I'm trying to find it's limitations and have done 3 different rides.
Bimble around Surrey Hills, taking it easy, following my nose - Tick. Comfy, relaxing, safe.
Swinley Trail Centre, going as fast as I dare - Tick. Shocked me as to how much fun it was, and just egged me on to treat it bad. Loved it!
This weekend - loops around Surrey Hill trails based in Peaslake. Much bumpier than Swinley as they are natural trails and found a limitation. Don't get me wrong, I had a blast on Barry's, Secret Santa, Bo, etc, and it has bizarre ability to lift the front wheel at will - short chain stays?
I found it on the first ride, and it that if you ram the front wheel into a hollow, or big root, it can ping the front end up in the air. I tried a mate's full suss and it certainly absorbs these hits. I guess it is the nature of rigid bikes, but I think it might be the tyre. I'm running at 7PSI now, but I think the 27tpi nate might be really stiff and not give much and have this bouncing characteristic. Good grip in turns though and I'm getting more confidence to just chuck the bike at corners now.
Still, as I mentioned, it wasn't really a problem, as just lift the front wheel up and it flies over stuff. so is it a tick for Surrey Hills trails? I think so, as I've never had so much fun there. My shoulders are sore today though from all the upper body effort - a bonus really.
Also, I got a PB up the gulley - being single speed, it was an out of the saddle, lung bursting sprint and the rear tyre just gripped the rocks and up I went, even with my weight right over the bars. Amazing!
I really do like this bike. Yes, I wish it was 10 pounds lighter and had more standover, but it feels great while riding it, which is the main thing.
Maybe I should try to go tubeless - might make the front more supple?
Cheers.
Tubeless definitely helps on a fatbike, the rolling resistance improves and the weight drops by a pound per wheel if you don't have to use dodgy methods to install it such as split tubes etc.
If you deflate you tyre and it's stuck to the rim you're normally OK. If it comes away easily tubeless may be a struggle. Tubeless tyre/rim combos lock together so it's often a struggle to remove your tyre and you'll need to stand on the sidewall to remove it! Then some tweeks tape and stans and you're good to go.
root-n-5th, sounds like you're going on a similar journey to mine with my Puffin! Really fancied one, wasn't sure if it the novelty would wear off pretty quickly and it'd end up gathering dust, so I waited for one to come up 2nd hand so I could ship it on for not much loss.
Took it on more and more different rides: Well, it's fun there, and it's fun there, it's actually brilliant at that, but surely it's going to be rubbish there - actually no, it's effing great at that too!
It's not great at everything, (high speed, high precision, wheels off the ground descents - you need some compression damping to calm things down and get composed and settled for the next - the same pingy thing you're finding) but it does a lot very, very well.
Thanks for the tubeless advice. I'm not convinced the Robsson rims will be that easy as there lip is quite small. Will give it a go.
Yes, definite limitations to it. Fast, rocky descents can be a bit hang on and hope. Fun though. But, at my age, keeping the speed lower is a good thing.
I'm taking my Swift B+ out tomorrow on a well known route as want to compare. I don't remember the swift's front being so easy to loft, but I will see. At 27lbs it's a fair bit lighter though so will be interesting. The chainstays are longer too.
Root-n-5th the bouncing effect is because although the front tyre has a suspension effect it has no damping. Successive hit make the wheel bounce higher and higher & so you get less control. A suspension forks rebound damping stops this and so is more controlled.
This was the only reason i swapped to a wren fork. I can go as fast as my ability allows now without worrying about loss of control & havibg to back off
Here's something carbon:
Very nice. Mind if I ask how tall you are and what size frame that is? Looks like the 21". I'm 6'2 and my Large Cube (19" frame I think) is a little short in the top tube.
Thanks for the tubeless advice. I'm not convinced the Robsson rims will be that easy as there lip is quite small. Will give it a go.
Go ghetto split tube method, there's nothing dodgy about it.
Few tips, pack the rim out each side with a few layers of insulation tape - After the tyre is put on the wheel, put a loop of tape around the centre of the tread to pull the tyre in & push the sidewalls out into the rim. I use reinforced sellotape as it doesn't stretch very much, which helps with popping the bead on the rim as the tyre won't expands upwards as much which forces the sidewalls to push out as you inflate it. Basically, the tyre will pop onto the bead at a lower PSI than it normally would, less chance of it blowing off the rim too, which is a good thing !
Very nice. Mind if I ask how tall you are and what size frame that is? Looks like the 21". I'm 6'2 and my Large Cube (19" frame I think) is a little short in the top tube.
Yeah, it's a 21". I'm 6'4.
Another update for anybody who cares.
Took the Swift single speed out today for 15 miles around Burgh Heath, Headley Heath and Box Hill. Know the route pretty well, but can never find Life on Mars - think I found it once, but seemed to go the wrong way.
Swift in B-plus, single speed mode with 3" Trax Fatty tyres. Pre-conceptions were that it would feel super light, chuckable, fast. Initially it felt small - it's a large as opposed to the XL Puffin. I have swapped form an 80mm stem to a 60mm but gone from 660 to 740 bars. I got used to it but I think I feel more comfortable on the XL.
Frame has the lovely springy, steel feel as the tubes are thinner than the Puffins, and the tyres take the edge off the sharp edges.
It does feel lighter up the hills, and the Strava times confirm this by a few seconds. Trails were drier than when I was on the Puffin though.
However, I've been left a bit disappointed. It feels very twitchy and a bit skittish to be honest. I had to pick my line a lot more than on the fat bike, as rocks and lumps threw it off line. Coming down the byway to Juniper Hall I remember the Puffin taking it in its stride - the Swift required care as there are loads of routs and rocks.
I wanted a fast start up the Box Hill bridleway to the top, so got some speed up, lent in to take the entrance at the bottom of Zig Zag, hit some gravel and the front washed out super quick. Left leg out, managed to catch it before dropping it, but the quick, skittish handling almost caught me out. In the single track bits I felt a bit tentative chucking it around too.
Down the gulley where I let the Puffin go, I didn't have the confidence and used the brakes.
Also, as I remember, the Swift seems really hard to wheelie. You have to get your weight right back and then the balance point is such a small sweet spot that it's no fun. I can't really wheelie, or manual, but I find the puffin so much easier to loft the front end on, and I can seem to balance a lot longer. IT becomes a bit tiresome on the Swift.
As for getting air, the Swift just doesn't seem to want to leave the ground, but the Puffin has a magnetic attraction to every lump and root, begging to get airborne.
Overall, I'm surprised. How can something that weighs so much it has its own gravity, with wheels of a rotating mass akin to a steam engine's flywheel, be more playful and fun than a fairly lightweight, springy whippet machine?
The Swift is a lovely ride, but perhaps suited to XC, long distance. The Puffin can do the distance, but is just a blast to ride everywhere and inspires confidence, where the Swift feels a bit twitchy.
I think perhaps I'm a fan of contemporary geometry - slack head angle, short chain stays, long front-centre, short stem. Maybe the hype is right?
The Swift is such a pretty bike, but I think I would choose to ride the fat bike over it now. Maybe the new Swift, with the slacker HA is better, or the Stooge?
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