[Closed] Feeling really unsettled on really loose rocky terrain

Heels down, look way ahead, stay loose. 20% fork sag, 30% shock sag as a starting point (set the fork standing, the shock sitting with the saddle dropped). Run a few psi more in the rear tyre than the front.

What width rims and tyres? My old 26er I was pushing how big a tyre, and too big felt all wobbly when things got too rough and fast...

(And loose rocks are never going to feel 'good')

2.35 hans dampf on wtb stp i25 rims.

Should i keeping my weight far back?

Do i still really lean the bike when trying to turn on the really rocky stuff

Seems ive done a full circle of inability, i first learnt how to ride rock gardens then learnt muddy steeper stuff but now ive forgotten how to ride rock gardens again!

Would a slacker HA make it feel a bit more like a 29er?

You are probably running your rebound on the rear either too fast or too slow.

Why do you think changing the head angle would make it feel like a 29er and that that would make you more confident?  It's really just a setup and technique issue, but it's easy to get stuck focusing on unrelated/unnecessary things that will continue to hold you back mentally.

Look further ahead perhaps, more rather than focusing on single (or multiple) loose rocks. See what you could do after losing a little control rather than focusing on the loss of control; are the pieces of the trail you could 'catch' yourself on to continue, etc?

If you don't have your eyes shut in terror you're doing mountainbiking wrong.

Forget all about kit and set up and just consciously seek out and practice that kind of riding.

Go faster.

Agree re rebound settings, check those, on both  fork and shock, keep weight forward - shifting weight back won't help. Lean the bike over - nice wee trick is to try have your inside elbow straightish and outside elbow at 90deg or as good as.

The suspension settings will have way more influence than a wee bawhair of extra rubber that the bigger wheels provide.

Should i keeping my weight far back?

No weight on the front means no front end grip = BAD!

Does it feel like it's going where it wants to? Is it bouncing off the rocks? Getting sucked down into them?

Sometimes it becomes self fulfilling where if you get nervous and slow down it gets harder to float over so you go slower...

I would agree that weight too far back is not good - for grip and ability to move bike around under you.

Better to be more centred and low imo, bent arms and soft legs.

what Spin said is 100% the answer

I thought rebound settings before I even opened the thread. Dunno where you are on the dial now, but try moving it to two-thirds towards fast (rabbit).

And stay loose, letting the bike move beneath you. I love that feeling.

hi cookci - its me from last night 🙂

as I said last night, tyre pressure, tyre choice, rebound, combined with a bit more speed is often the key, and other than that once your happy with that side of setup, ride, ride and ride it again, conditions change all the time down there, so you have to be ready for anything on it, rocks displaced etc....though charity was very loose and sketchy last night as was B of Oven, so you did pick a really bad time to feel sketchy on it, its as loose as ive ridden since since last summer

ps don't have a death grip on the bars too, try and stay relaxed, combined with a bit more speed to give you some good momentum going into it

pps get some dhr2 tyres 😉

No weight on the front means no front end grip = BAD!

Disagree with this.  In fast corners, this is true.  But in other situations, it's not.

When faced with rocky sections I unweight the bike and I do indeed get my weight back, and I don't brake.

Loose as a goose...

haha small world Oscillate

I've ridden it a million times already so i'm not lacking in practice, i just think i'm learning bad habbits, maybe my positioning can be different on a slack HT compared to the boardman?

I'll try and stay a bit more loose as due to recent falls i think im riding overly rigid. Going down the bottom of the oven would you say weight back, neutral or forward?

Are you braking?

Only slightly on the rear

haha indeed it is 😉

charity lane changes pretty much every time you ride it, I don't think its ever the same (ive only ridden its 3 times in the last year though!), the rocks form in totally random places, lines that were there last week aren't there the next etc etc, which keeps you on your toes but makes it a bit more challenging if your already feeling a bit sketchy/mind games, its a long long time since I really thought about riding down it, but all I can say is it just becomes better the faster you ride it, tyres float over the rocks easier and the momentum/speed carries you over things easier (obvious down side is if you get it wrong its gonna hurt more lol)

bottom of the oven is always a odd one, it runs better when its rained and awful when its sunny as the rocks just separate, id defo not be over the front end on either, I guess you want to be off the back of the saddle (not seated at all) and arms relaxed with a finger over each brake, id defo NOT want weight neutral or forward on either, especially b of oven as its steeper and quicker (no peddling and you still pick up a lot of speed)

but as with everything depends on bike/setup/tyres etc too, ive never like schwalbes personally, not for me, but I cant imagine modern day ones are any more sketchy than maxxis etc in the right compound

practice I meant in terms of getting confidence on it, not necessarily that you've ridden it loads, but try a few different things on it, push back up, or sections the bits you feel most uncomfortable on, until it feels natural and not putting you on edge, remember you saying you'd had a crash on it, so Id go back and do that section a few times till you get some confidence back on it, I think that rutted bit at the top , regardless of line is best done with more speed

cheers for that.

I'll stay loose and keep my weight backwards (but not fully back) and try again 🙂

no probs - also try not touch the front brake at all, theres no need to be hitting the front brake down either of those, hover over yes, but don't use at all

ive probably got a lot of bad techniques myself , but I guess its sometimes what just works for you....it sounds like confidence has been knocked, those things above would be the things id try concentrate on now, to try and get it back

off the brakes (defo off the front completely), off/behind the saddle never seated! (no need to go mega far back or anything as you still want control on the bars), bit of speed going into it for momentum to roll over rocks/thro rock gardens and try and look in advance for obstacles / line choice, (it can be tricky on these 2 as they change so much)

other than that my knowledge is out the window (lol ps my advice maybe totally wrong but that's what id do as a start off)

tyre pressure plays a huge part down there, but if your at 20 up front then that's about right id say for terms of grip on it, whether the tyres any good on it though ive no experience off them

I’ll stay loose and keep my weight backwards

Why? Only one person on this has said to do that?.....

Well I'm no skills coach, but I'd say you want to be subtly moving your weight back and forward constantly as you roll across rocks, kind of pumping the bike over the terrain - but really that's just another way of saying let the bike move about under you.

Don't keep your weight anywhere, relax and let the bike move around under you.  Enjoy.

No harm in me having a play with a few techniques then really

Any videos to hand?

I appreciate all the advice.

Id rather somebody said if you bought this for £xxx and you would be a better rider but thats not going to happen

I think the roll over the 29er's lets me get away with being a rubbish rider! 🙂

nobeer - the one person that's said it is the one person who rides it and who was him last night down it, its a pretty steep track and pretty fast once you let go, you don't want the weight forward on it IME, as the bigger the boulders are the chances you've got of being flung over the front if you hit one wrong, least if your weights back you aren't going over the bars ( which I think hes done on it before)

you don't want been stationary at the back, the movement is required to get away / over the rocks (or pumping as chakaping says), but as I passed him on it last night, he did look very rigid and very much central on the bike (id imagine this is more confidence given hes fallen off)

as I said just my opinion from seeing him last night, certainly wants being further back compared to what I saw, but not rigid, moving around is always good to be ready for anything

also cant remember if you had a dropper post or not? if not id get one of those! will be biggest and best upgrade you'll get for confidence ever! 🙂

listen to a bit of everyone, that's how I ride it down there, I'm off the back (ish) as its steep but don't want to be stuck in just one position, ive got a mate who sometimes rides stuff when I follow seated down stuff like charity and its pretty cringey to watch, its looks so uncomfortable, and like he has no control at all

ps I am far from a riding god so please do listen to the other folks as well (disclaimer ha!)

Why? Only one person on this has said to do that?

Well, when I hit rough things I like to keep my weight back, and it serves me well.  Like this chap is doing:

But it depends what you imagined when you read the OP's description of the trail I suppose.

Fascinating conversation folks. Loose rocks (i.e. the fist to head size ones that move as you ride over them) frighten the life out of me if it's steep. Only thing I've found that works is a 5" fatbike, but that's a bit extreme 🙂

molgrips - that was what I was trying to say but explained pretty craply ha!

it is that sort of rocky jagged, and the sections hes in question about are steep with consequences, and rutted to boot! id definitely want to be off the back for some of it, it has a pedally section further down then back to steep again, the first section where its rutted has lots of loose, pointy rocks and I think is the section he came off on, id pretty much for that section be as the guy in that pic ( I know that's a full on DH track raced by pros but sections/principal of it is just the same to me)

Weight LOW > Weight BACK!

That "chap" ^^^ up there doesn't really have his weight backwards!  His bodies CofG is still pretty much above the bottom bracket, but by dropping his heals, pushing his chest low and his but backwards, he's lowered his CofG hugely, meaning the bike tracks straight over rocks n' dips and is less likely to get hung up and result in an OTB!

The only time you REALLY need your weight RIGHT back is when you are going very slowly down VERY steep bits (and even then it needs to be as low as possible first.....)

that's pretty far back to me, his arse is off the saddle , his todger is behind the end of the saddle, what ever that position above is is pretty much how id be riding the section in question

as maxtorque says though everythings right in his body position, and unless something unexpected happens hes never going to go OTB, hes in control (probably cos hes a pro 🙂 and everything just looks right position wise for the terrain)

his arms are nicely bent, and not stretched out meaning hes got full control (as youd expect from a pro)

the only time I'm ever REALLY off the back of the saddle is steep techy SLOW stuff (almot to a halt tech slow), or incredibly steep slippy loam in the woods if its winter with your arse touching the tyre

I still think mostly speed is your friend on them, but that's sometimes very tricky if you've lost the confidence on something

Speed is absolutely your friend. Right up to the point where you come off. Then...not so friendly 🙂

But it depends what you imagined when you read the OP’s description of the trail I suppose.

Yes, nowhere in his description does he say steep world cup downhill tracks, like the image you post he mentions loose rocks and corners, so that's what I answered regarding. Even that image you posted, I'm pretty sure I know which corner that is having ridden it a fair few times, if you maintain that position for the next corner, you'll wash out. Hence why I answered as I did.

That “chap” ^^^ up there doesn’t really have his weight backwards!

He does, at least in my understanding of 'back'.  His bum is nearly on the rear tyre and the saddle is near his sternum.  Which is a lot further back than I normally ride!

The angle of the bike means that a line through his COG is near the BB yes.  But to me, 'back' means further back than you would be if you were just sat in the saddle.  And safe to say, he is that.

The idea behind moving 'back' is as you say to KEEP your weight centred as the bike points downwards.

I’m pretty sure I know which corner that is having ridden it a fair few times, if you maintain that position for the next corner, you’ll wash out.

Indeed but I don't think telling people to get their weight forward on steep stuff is a good idea 🙂

Of course we need to move our weight around a lot.  But if a corner is as steep as the rest of the trail, then your weight still needs to be back even if it's a corner.  The difference between DH tracks and a random track in the woods is that DH tracks are usually hand made to have flow which means they don't have nadgery bits in them like the OP describes.

haha roverpig - exactly and when confidence is low its totally understandable that it sometimes isn't possible, but generally speaking it does work well 🙂

molgrips - is pretty much again what I meant by my posts too, again described crapply (by me!)

I never told anyone to get weight forward on steep stuff, as the OP never said anything about it being steep.

OW - I have no idea about 'Oven' as I've never ridden it, and as you obviously have, I wasn't referring to you as the 'one person'.

thread of the year

thread of the year

Already?

That photo is useless without context.

A skills course is always a good idea.

I'd recommend you download the Dirt School app. Work on your body position - nailing the muscle memory of the basic body position is the key to controlling your bike (regardless of what terrain you're on). You're probably noticing your lack of control most on more technical terrain because that's where your margin for error is lower.

You're right - I'd assumed it was steep, or at least downhill, due to the tone of the post.