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I don’t doubt you, but I’ll bet my last 12 speed cassette that they sell out quick smart.
I hope they do - Bird have been making smart bikes that deliver to the core market (or in fact, over deliver for Swinley 🙂 )
I don't think it would stop Bird buyers - but a new punter coming in off the street is going to ask the same questions as on here
Ethic
Should it not have an extra 'c'?
E-thicc
🤣🤣🤣
I've got a full fat ebike with 12 speed.
Most of the time, 11-36t would be fine except
- 1. Pedalling with motor off, e.g. if battery runs out or if you are riding with non-ebike friends or just trying so save the battery.
- 2. For going up really really steep climbs.
I still might replace the 12 speed with the 11-36t 10 speed off my commuter though, but the 12 speed has lasted well. Around 2000 miles so far on an slx cassette and 2 chains, but it does need replacing soon.
I had a ride on one on the demo loop at Ard rock today. It rode like an ebike uphill and was similar to my Aether 9 down. I checked and it'll be available as a frame/motor/battery combo and might be out toward the end of the year.
it’ll be available as a frame/motor/battery combo and might be out toward the end of the year.
Oh no. I hope it's crap. I can't afford it yet.
That is a good looking bike full stop! It's also much more compact than a lot of ebikes out there. The workmanship in the Instagram photos is really nice, so are the colours.
Excuse my ignorance but with the high pivot pulley wheels, why do need the one just to side of the chainring?
Its to reduce the amount of chain growth on the bottom run. Without it you would destroy the clutch/spring in your mech in a few hours.
Frame/motor option is a winner for me, so many eBikes with awful spec out there unless you're touching five figures.
@benpinnick, if you're about- I'm in Ireland, how awkward is a motor warranty issue across borders? That would be my worry, that I couldn't get that dealt with via a local dealer
Frame only option is a massive deal - it would be pretty much the only option on the market surely!
Well, there's Pole, but they're a rather different prospect to Bird as far as customer service goes
Demo bike at Ard Rock means demo bike also making it to Tweed Love? Assuming it’s a medium (really need a small)?
They were staff bikes on the stand (M and a ML) so I'm not sure how much they were official demo bikes or just the guy took pity on me asking on Friday after doing the epic if I could try one the day after.
Demo bike at Ard Rock means demo bike also making it to Tweed Love? Assuming it’s a medium (really need a small)?
Yes will be at tweedlove too. Medium is available but not small, sorry.
Looks like Bird have a new bike/frame dropping tomorrow. Long travel 29er, bigger brother to the AM9 so maybe 160/170mm enduro called the Aeris 9. I spotted it on Street Pigeon's Instagram, looks very nice!
Looks like this Aeris 9
https://www.bird.bike/product-category/complete-bikes/aeris-9-29-full-suspension/
Must be time to ask if there’s any news as we end into 2023. I believe Bird, privateer and possibly cotic we’re talking of their models releasing some time this coming year which is brilliant as I’ve held off scratching the itch for nearly 12 months waiting for the bird or other frame only options to go live.
@danbird @benpinnick any news to salivate over the Xmas period with?
There was an update on fb the other day - it’s on pause at the moment because they’ve found the Shimano motors unreliable in testing and therefore (quite rightly) don’t want to release the bike. Think they’re waiting for the next version of Shimano motors to test and hoping they’re more reliable as Bosch don’t seem to want to take on new companies and all the other manufacturers want huge volumes
That’s a shame. Motors have been bombproof on the COTIC prototypes, but Shimano have pushed motor availability into 2024 for small brands IIRC.
Well that wasn’t what I was hoping to read. Damn! So my pile of bits acquired in preparation is pretty redundant now.
It's better than having a full redundant bike while you wait 18 months for a new motor.
I saw the FB post, it doesn't sound good. I was also mad keen to test ride the Ethic but the Shimano reliability and disposable motors would have put me off buying one. I hope they find a better option.
From what I’ve heard though even when/if they fail the replacements seem to be quick In appearing.
Surely any e-bike using shimano would have the same issues, probably all of the manufacturers suffer the same issues.
Im just sad as now I have to work out whether to return the bargains or keep them longer and unused removing any return options.
According to Bird, Madison have run out of warranty motors and the delivery date has been pushed back to January.
Yes, other manufacturers do have the same issues. Speak to any rider of any e-bike.
I really love the idea of a self uplifting DH bike for doing laps of steep tech but I couldn't live with one. Not with current technology.
Bosch aren't much better! Out of the 4 people I ride with on ebikes only 1 hasn't had a replacement motor and that's probably down to to lack of use. Now out of warranty it sort of feels like owning a ticking time bomb - It's when, not if the thing will go pop.
With the general unreliability of e-bike motors from Shimano and Bosch, is it not a real risk to smaller bike companies like Bird and Cotic to potentially have significant amounts of motor failures?
Would dealing with the potential workshop time and admin of repairing/replacing faulty kit not take large amounts of time away from their core business as well as tarnishing their brand reputation?
I'd say yes and yes. That's why they aren't coming up for sale any time soon.
Is motor reliability likely to improve that much over the next year or two?
crossed
With the general unreliability of e-bike motors from Shimano and Bosch, is it not a real risk to smaller bike companies like Bird and Cotic to potentially have significant amounts of motor failures?
Particularly with Bird, who were trying to do something different with warranty, Ben had outlined some great plans to look after the customers beyond the regular Shimano warranty period but very hard to deliver that if motors aren't up to scratch.
I genuinely don't know a single EBike owner that I ride with who hasn't had a motor replaced under warranty.
I genuinely don’t know a single EBike owner that I ride with who hasn’t had a motor replaced under warranty.
I'm sure there's plenty out there who haven't had issues but with the amount of reliability issues I read about online, it's the one thing that's put me off buying an e-bike.
Well, as an early grinch about the name, I think it's rather apt that they are being so ethic(al) about not launching until customers can have some sort of security that their bike might have longevity!
Not been too interested in eMTBs yet, so I've not really looked - what's the 2nd hand market like? Do the well heeled try and move their bikes on at the end of warranty and buy a new one; or is the lack of long term reliability reflected in the 2nd hand market value? i.e. do they not just cost more, but also depreciate more too? A timebomb of a motor and well used batteries with depreciating capacity don't feel like very palatable assets to take on - especially as those buying 2nd hand typically have less disposable income to fix problems (that's why they aren't buying new). Sifting out the low milage shed hogs from the cared for but well used will be pretty important.
Ebikes will stop working, its clear that the motors arn't all that well designed/tested/manufactured, so the issues are widespread and relatively common. Seems if you run it in high power modes, the failures happen more often, which is not surprising.
The motor on my Kenevo SL died at 1400miles (it would only work in turbo putting max effort in the pedals!), its only ever been ridden offroad, so no easy miles. It failed on a Sunday, I had a new motor by Wednesday lunchtime, top service from Certini in Birmingham.
My Shimano powered ebike has done 3200 trouble feel miles, but it's 3 months until the warranty runs out so I have the lottery of a 1000 bill at somepoint, and with no warranty, it's not worth much 2nd hand.
Rubbish!
Wonder if Bird are considering Polini or Oli - they both have motors that fit shimano designed mounts (they are designed for OEMs, not aftermarket) and the Polini one at least is designed to be serviceable/rebuildable.
Berkshire bikes sell this which uses it...
https://www.berkshirecycles.co.uk/mula
do they not just cost more, but also depreciate more too?
I think this is now correct, they cost more and depreciate more. A lot of people selling seem reluctant to drop prices though, so they just aren't selling.
From people I've spoken to Specialized seem to have the best aftermarket backup.
Doubt it, Brushless DC motors have been around for 60 years and used in everything, from the computer you're using just now to the power tools in your garage and throughout industry and even new fangled electric cars, model or full size 😁
I just find that they're usually poorly integrated into bikes, either with poor waterproofing, allowing the slow degradation until failure, or poor mounting and cabling, causing failure through normal usage over time. Most bikes i've looked at with their design just seem to be about how to squeeze all of the electrics into it, rather than modify the motor/battery/compartment to accommodate it better.
With the general unreliability of e-bike motors from Shimano and Bosch, is it not a real risk to smaller bike companies like Bird and Cotic to potentially have significant amounts of motor failures?
I wouldn’t put Bosch in the same category as Shimano on the reliability scale. Experience lends me to believe Bosch are ‘considerably’ more reliable than the other big players (Shimano/Brose).
Shimano are leading the charge in being the one brand I would never consider on any bike, they are completely unserviceable (whereas Bosch/Brose are), output is noticeably lower than other brands & they burn through batteries considerably quicker than others. That’s not even mentioning the EP8 rattle, which makes the CX4 look quiet.
As for the decision to can the project, probably makes sense. With patchy supply anyway, why would you design & build a bike, tie up a load of capital on stock you cannot move until one of your suppliers chooses to supply you at some point in the future? The small players will always get the rough side, thats just business.
Must be a tough business decision to want to build an ebike & open up a whole new market & be so limited in the motor/battery options.
Well, as an early grinch about the name, I think it’s rather apt that they are being so ethic(al) about not launching until customers can have some sort of security that their bike might have longevity!
Yep, and the transparency is much appreciated. Makes me wonder again how much of the cost of ebikes is for the actual hardware and how much is to cover the inevitable replacement and associated efforts.
My Shimano powered ebike has done 3200 trouble feel miles, but it’s 3 months until the warranty runs out
You need to get out and beast that thing five times a week for the next few months.
😀
HobNob
I wouldn’t put Bosch in the same category as Shimano on the reliability scale.
That's fair, although I still wouldn't class Bosch as "reliable" either.
Bosch are unreliable, Shimano are very unreliable and unservicable.
Specialized have always had the best backup and that's where I would have put my money originally but the prices are getting absurd. The RRP sneaks up every time you look away. And all those new motors, no questions asked and fast turn around must be hurting them. Maybe that's why the prices are so high. You're paying for a bike and 2 or 3 replacements guts at the same time.
I could buy a used Ducati Scrambler AND a Yamaha WR250f for the price of a middle of the range Turbo Kenevo.
In my experience of Bosch I'd disagree about them being more reliable. Kona Remote Ctrl Gen 2 Bosch motor 4 motors in 3 years , one developed a fault that was scary. A fault code came up on the display , I popped the battery out to make sure it wasn't damp , all fine switched the bike back on and it shot across the garage on its own and smashed into one of my other bikes 😳 In the end with much perseverance I got a new motor out of warranty at cost , still £400 plus though . Bosch contacted me directly and advised me not to get the motor wet as " they don't like it" 🙄🙄🙄I had visions of Quantocks riding being interrupted by having to lift the bike over stream crossings 🙄🙄🙄🙄
My mate was convinced his Gen 4 motor was far more reliable but has also started playing up lately . Motor was convinced it had been interfered with and just went into limp mode .My Orbea has a Shimano EP8 not too confident about that either makes me wonder if it's worth it 🙄🙄😳🙄
That’s fair, although I still wouldn’t class Bosch as “reliable” either.
Bosch are unreliable, Shimano are very unreliable and unservicable.
Yep, I was going to define it as ‘most reliable’ but the others are not really setting a bar for competition 😆
My second Bosch based bike is proving to be as reliable as the last. I’m on about 5000km in total on Bosch systems with only a couple of minor grumbles on them. I don’ treat my bikes well, I generally ride my ebike in the worst conditions (as thats what I see its for), hose them down, put them away wet & don’t have any sort of disciplined battery conditioning - in fact it’s probably my worst kept bike by far. However I didn’t do too much on it this year compared to past (650km vs 3500km on the leg bike).
I still wouldn’t be without one, certainly wouldn’t have one as my only bike however.
No love for Yamaha on here though, the most reliable motor I’ve had, out of warranty now though so Sod’s Law is being implemented as I hit post 😂
4 prototypes and 3 failures. Shimano suck
2018 Vitus E-Sommet here, will be 5 years old in March. 2 mates have the same bikes, we're all on our 3rd motors. All done under warranty, they are supposed to have a rolling 2 year warranty which has been honoured but never had it in writing, think there's a fair chance of getting told to do one if mine craps out again in the next 12 months.
It's been the most fun thing I've ever bought but don't think I'd have another one with a Shimano system. Shame Bird seem to be stuck with them. Wonder when next gen is due out, anyone heard anything?
There was an update on fb the other day
4 prototypes and 3 failures. Shimano suck
Nothing I can see on Bird or Ethic's FB. I guess it was a story so I've missed it? Thanks for sharing as my medium-term hope was (and might still be) that they'd get a half-fat eMTB out say a year after this one.
Also I found this post about their Shimano vs. Fazua selection https://www.bird.bike/ethic/
On the FB post he said there was a 75% failure rate so maybe it was 3 out of 4 bikes or just 3 out of 4 different motors.
Can anyone provide a link to these posts?
You won't see it unless you join the group.
@benpinnick - is this project dead now or are you just enjoying some radio silence?
E-bits and pieces have come on a long way…
Bird facebook page is the best place for any updates. Pretty sure someone asked recently and said it is dead now.
I'm no longer on social media (apart from here), but the gravel bike doesn't appear to be available yet either - or have I missed that?
I was keen on the gravel bike but have now spent the funds, so not going to happen for me, but it looks a great bike.
I agree the gravel bike looks really nice. Pity I have one.
Re: their e-bike project, it seems a shame if it’s dead. There was quite a lot of interest on here (not just in the choice of name!). Now it seems that smaller companies are fitting well regarded e-motors into their bikes (e.g., Forbidden and Orange). Got me thinking about the Ethic e-bike.
Frankly I think that’s a very sensible stance for a smaller company to make
Sounds positive and interesting...
Ali Clarkson just picked up an e bike sponsor, Uk small scale manufacturer. He rides for bird and they were happy for him to ride that e-bike as there was no conflict ( that’s what he says in the vid)
https://www.static-bikes.co.uk