Enve's are just silly money. Same weight as Light Bicycle etc but at least 6x the cost.
From what I've seen at races and on here they are no more durable.
Even if they are a bit more durable, they are a PITA to true.
Even if they are a bit more durable, they aren't 6x as durable.
They may have an excellent warranty but so do Light Bicycle.
I'm not sold on Enve.
However, I am sold on carbon rims being worth the risk of damaging one on a rock because they are just so much stiffer when giving it the beans in a sprint and round berms.
geetee1972 - MemberSo to sum up the thread, the people who've ridden carbon rims all agree they are better and offer an increase in performance that translates to better riding (even if not everyone would consider shelling out specifically for the Enve product) and then there are those who think it's all just marketing guff and that we're all in some way of questionable sanity or just have more money than sense ans they also seem to be the ones who've never ridden them.
Not at all, stop trying to polarise it.
No one's buying a 10% speed gain.
What gee said...
I wouldn't fork out for the enves, but I do have a set of lightbicyles 35mm, 29er rims. Still not exactly cheap mind, but they do make a really noticeable difference.
they're so stiff they only really work well on a jones spaceframe with all it's lovely vertical compliance...
The man from Derby kindly warrantied my rims, somewhat unexpectedly this week, so in light of the (not dubious at all) potential race winning gains I can benefit from, i'm going to build them back up to take to Whistler in a few weeks, for racing the EWS.
That extra 10% should see me right up the sharp end. Watch out Jared!
cynic-al - MemberNo one's buying a 10% speed gain.
I can totally buy a 10% speed gain. Just not for performance reasons. Feel's as important as outright performance I reckon, a bike that feels right on the trails and in the garage can go a hell of a lot faster than a "better" one that doesn't.
a bike that feels right on the trails and in the garage can go a hell of a lot faster than a "better" one that doesn't.
I don't think its that simple - a bike that feels fast isn't always faster.
I've just got some enve m50s and they feel and ride completely differently to cheaper carbon rims.
They also ride so much better then the equivalent light aluminium rims.
I'm not here to convince anyone, I fancied some and could afford them. I like the fact they're not cheap knock offs. Too much in our world is built to a price point.
Long term I will let you know.
But this is only the same argument as someone buying tesco BSO and some one on here telling them to spend 1500 on a real bike. All relative.
I don't understand the the race to the bottom in consumerism; let's have some stuff produced to a high quality too?
That's the problem though innit. What do they do over and above a Light Bicycle rim at 1/6 the cost? Other than give you a warm glow because everyone knows you spent so much? The alternatives are not poor quality.
They're not lighter
They're not stronger
I've never seen data to suggest they're stiffer?
They're less user friendly
Well anecdotely I spent 1150 on some U.S.E carbon wheels and they didn't feel that great to me; leaden and not particularly stiff. That made me understand that just being carbon is not the be all and end all.
Also isn't the aim of riding to come away with a warm fuzzy glow. No matter how that is achieved.
And for the quality (as I was trying to buy a cheaper alternative to Enve in USE ) - they split when I took a tyre off.
cynic-al - MemberI don't think its that simple - a bike that feels fast isn't always faster.
Of course- hence "can" not "will". But there's no reason to doubt "I put carbon wheels on my bike and went 10% faster", that's a completely reasonable idea once you add a human brain to the equation. I fitted a louder exhaust pipe to my motorbike and went faster 😆 Power was slightly down because the jetting was wrong but I opened the throttle more.
If you don't have them and aren't going to get any why would you give a sh*t? If you have them and are happy why would you care if a bunch of cheapskates knock them?
I cant afford them and dont care if they give 10% or fold like tissue.
If they make the owner happy what's the problem?
"I like to ride my bike fast" has to be the best comment on here.
Total cock swinging, "I have ENVE wheels, I'm soooo much faster than you common folk". 😆
Put wheels on your bike, ride your bike. If you're fast, you're fast, if you ain't, you ain't. Bad workmen blame their tools...
They are wheels for christ sake. Unless you are racing in professional circuits what does it really matter?
Personally, I would never buy ENVE wheels, I can get the same for cheaper. But I am more than happy with my "cheapskate" EN521's, that do the job perfectly well.
So much "my dicks bigger than your dick" on here... Get over it, they are wheels...
I've just got some enve m50s and they feel and ride completely differently to cheaper carbon rims.
in what way and which rims? just curious...
But there's no reason to doubt "I put carbon wheels on my bike and went 10% faster", that's a completely reasonable idea once you add a human brain to the equation
Is there a 10% gap between those on carbon wheel and those not?
Total cock swinging, "I have ENVE wheels, I'm soooo much faster than you common folk".
I have 2 pairs. Thus I am twice as fast as the paupers.
Wow, 3 threads in as many days where strangers are asking me to defend my purchases. More chips than Harry Ramsdens...
cynic-al - MemberIs there a 10% gap between those on carbon wheel and those not?
There's a 10% gap between Geetee on carbon wheels and not.
Haha! Wasn't asking you to defend your purchase. Never once said you should defend what you buy, got the money to buy it, buy it. I'm just saying that personally I don't see the requirement for a pro piece of kit when I ain't no pro rider.
Like I said, they are wheels, buy whatever you like or can afford and ride your bike, don't sit there rubbing it in people faces and calling them "cheapskates" because they don't have a wheel set that costs as much as yours... Kinda sad ain't it.
Wow, 3 threads in as many days where strangers are asking me to defend my purchases
I dont think its about the actual amount spent, plenty of normal people spend more on cars, watches, holidays, laptops etc, not me I'm skint but I love seeing the really nice kit out on the trails, gives me something to oooh and ahhh over 🙂
I think its people struggling to understand how/why they are so much more than alternative carbon rims.
From a spec point of view it seems like a poor choice on the actual technical and provable aspects of it.
If you buy them cos you like them and can afford them then fair play to you, ive been known to buy things 'just because i like them' before and i wouldn't begrudge anyone for doing so.
Sam no one has ever called anyone a cheapskate and no one is swinging their dick least of all me. If that's what you thought people were saying or implying then it would explain why you seem so angry. So apologies if I played any part in that.
Honestly I do just like riding my bike fast, which like anything else is a relative term. It's relative to me. To whether I'm riding at 90% of my ability or at 100%. The carbon wheels gave me the confidence to ride at 100% whereas before I was riding at 90%. There you go that's your 10%.
Be happy guys. Life is short and youth is even shorter (Sammy boy).
adsh - Member
If you don't have them and aren't going to get any why would you give a sh*t? If you have them and are happy why would you care if a bunch of cheapskates knock them?
That's the cheapskates reference, I'm not angry 🙂 I don't mean to sound it.
I'm just baffled that people can be so defensive and argumentative over a set of wheels.
I fully agree with you with that geetee, life is far far too short to be bothered about things like this.
Wheels are wheels like I said, if they go round and round, and get you up or down the hill, where's the problem?
If you can spend £xxxx on wheels, do it! Lord knows I would! But the variances in the wheels are probably so slight, how many people can really really tell the difference? Placebo effect from having a lighter wallet probably has more bearing on how your new kit feels than reality.
I have 2 pairs. Thus I am twice as fast as the paupers.
i have 3 pairs at the moment
It is definitely more than just placebo and depending on what your coming from the difference can be pretty drastic. But in the grand scheme of things it is pretty marginal when compared to say going from a hardtail to a full suss.
Sorry that someone was rude enough to make that cheap remark. That wasn't cool.
There are two debates here. One is about carbon rims per se the other about Enves products specifically. I only bought the Enves because at the time there was no alternative. I trashed a set of haven carbons twice by that point and had got my money back. The havens just had too low a spoke count and I wanted rims I could have built up traditionally. I'd buy the Light Bicycle ones now if I ever get back on the mountain bike.
I did timed tests and found it made about 10% difference. The 'feel good factor' though was about 50%.
😆 🙄
Couldn't make it up! Oh, wait... 😆
To be honest I would be devastated if I spent all that money and the feel good factor was just 50% better. How fun the wheels feel is the only thing you have a chance of quantifying and I'd want them to be at least twice as good as something so extortionate priced
Any hoo, the hole digging is amusing. Please continue 😀
I have the 26" Enve AM wheels... They definitely do feel very different, much more direct, but I am still undecided after 3 months if they are better or worse than alloy wheels. I think the flex in most alloy rims is maybe desirable? I do love how the Enves look and I also dropped about half a pound of rotating weight, but I am not entirely sure I would buy them again, for example if I went to 27.5"... Probably just stick with alloy.
I actually find the whole composite rims thing fascinating, on road bikes I think they work as they are, a straight replacement for an alloy rim in a traditionally constructed, spoked wheel...
For MTB use I think there is a way to go, what seems to have happened is that deepmsections and low spoke counts have been transposed from road wheels and they are not hacking it in all situations... I think maybe a deeper examination of the stresses MTB wheels are subject to and considering a change from traditional construction might be needed. Is "stiffer" necessarily better? Dunno, we've spent the last couple of decades fitting wider, lower pressure tyres to MTBs, we must want some level of compliance from our wheels...
One thing I do like about composites is that they are actually relatively simple to repair so rather that banning a cracked carbon wheel as you would with an alluminium equivalent I can seema benefit there...
The cost thing is what it is, composites are labour party intensive, prices will only reduce with volume or use of techniques which reduce the amount of skilled labour needed, I can foresee cheaper carbon rims in a few years then we'll see how anti carbon people really are...
Dan you're being a dick. Just don't ok.
you're being a dick. Just don't ok.
[img]
[/img]
in what way and which rims? just curious
I explained about the U.S.E rims ?
[img] 
[/img]
I can foresee cheaper carbon rims in a few years then we'll see how anti carbon people really are...
They're already out there, and folk are lapping them up!
what seems to have happened is that deepmsections and low spoke counts have been transposed from road wheels and they are not hacking it in all situations.
I disagree, most MTB rims are about 25ish mm deep, which is very shallow, and most wheelsets are 28 or 32 spokes.
I have to admit that the driect feel ofmy LB carbon rims is awesome, not sure if the snappier acceleration is more about the reduced weight, than stiffnessofrim, shirley stiffness of spokes would make more difference to that feel?
they certainly feel better in turns too, although 35mm wide could be width too
but I do find on rock gardens etc that the extra stiffness results in a rougher ride, my frames already quite stiff, so im running a bit less pressure in my tyres and maybe in my shock too
I have 2 pairs. Thus I am twice as fast as the paupers.Wow, 3 threads in as many days where strangers are asking me to defend my purchases. More chips than Harry Ramsdens...
I don't think anyone is asking people to defend their purchases? This was started from a link from one of the biggest biking websites who have tested a couple of sets of Enve wheels & had a couple of very public failures.
The debate was then sparked about whether they actually improve the ride & make you go faster in real terms, or just look pretty & have the feel good factor.
It's fair to say I think everyone is in agreement they do feel different. However, different doesn't always mean faster. We've had some fairly spurious improvement claims & then we had the "i'm fast" gem:
I have the 26" Enve AM wheels... They definitely do feel very different, much more direct, but I am still undecided after 3 months if they are better or worse than alloy wheels. I think the flex in most alloy rims is maybe desirable? I do love how the Enves look and I also dropped about half a pound of rotating weight, but I am not entirely sure I would buy them again, for example if I went to 27.5"... Probably just stick with alloy.
You have raised an interesting point, which I have in the past too about wheel flex. Maybe on a 29" they make more sense, as 29" wheels can be a bit floppy otherwise.
I have found the carbon wheels can be too stiff in some occasions, such as holding a line on a long rooty, off camber section. Stiff wheels cause the bike to feel like it's pinging off the roots, making it harder to hold the line, rather than wheel flex allowing for some movement.
There is some information out there from Vouilloz who used to run crazy low tension in his wheels to allow for wheel flex as it was faster, and more recently with the Syndicate riders running lower spoke tensions to try & bring some flex into the wheels. Being stiffer doesn't necessarily mean better in every instance.
There is some information out there from Vouilloz who used to run crazy low tension in his wheels to allow for wheel flex as it was faster, and more recently with the Syndicate riders running lower spoke tensions to try & bring some flex into the wheels. Being stiffer doesn't necessarily mean better in every instance.
Exactly. The Mavic testing with pro XC racers was also really interesting. The wheels were tested blind (not knowing the wheel, rather than wearing a blindfold 😉 ) and the fastest wheel and the one the pros preferred was neither the stiffest nor the lightest. Everything is about balance. You can't have gains in every aspect of design without some disadvantages in other performance areas.
Anyway, the thread is about another ENVE MTB rim failure. I can't help thinking that as a company they are kind of missing the mark in their MTB rims for a whole variety of reasons already discussed. As a premium product they set themselves up for perfection which it would appear is not attained, especially compared to other competitors products which is the main thing. The positive is that the latest generation seems like a better step in the right direction. I'm sure I'd be happy to have them (only had a quick ride on a friends set) but for the same money then something like AX SRC CC's seem much more tempting or for less money then LB rims seem a more than adequate equivalent. No doubt they are good and people are happy but I can't help feeling there are better alternatives at both ends of the price range.
Two great posts.
Mountain biking seems to be going through the phase motorcycling went through a few years ago where stiffness was the be all and end all....the bikes ended up riding like crap.
Now the designers understand that the rider needs a certain amount of compliance/flex in the frame/forks/wheel/tyre etc etc to give them the fine feel they need to push to the limit of grip and then hold it there without going too far.... on stupidly stiff bikes they were experiencing 'chatter' through the front of the bike when cornering and if they pushed through the bikes were letting go with no prior warning and leaving the rider confused as to how the crash occurred.
The thinking at the time was that the fork and shock could take care of all flex/feel needs, they can't and the bike itself has to 'give' a little too for perfect feedback to the rider.
According to ENVE, once the issue was discovered, "We set out to find a solution immediately and ultimately made improvements in a running change to accommodate the added stiffness of the Competition spoke. The end result is a wheel that exceeds the performance criteria we’d established prior to the launch of the M-Series." We haven't run into any other structural problems on the new set of wheels, even after hitting the same small drop that did in the original set, plus countless other hard landings and rough trails.
Sounds like the carbon "cant afforders" and "haters" are just looking for another reason to try and justlfy their position...
Kudos to Enve for investigation the issue and finding a solution.. The chances are that, the wheels that were on test, were probably prototypes or early production models. So they may or may not have been up to same standard as the finished articles...
Just like the 650b threads.... just because you cant afford to buy them.. it doesnt mean that they are pointless.. There is a reason that they are available and the people who use them are able to see the benefits. They are lighter, track better and accelerate faster than alloy rims. Put those together and you will see performance increases..
It's not a question of whether or not they are worth the money.. If you can't afford them.. You will never know.. Just stop being a whiney little bi*ch and go ride your bike.
peace out.
The spoke tension thing came up before. It is counter intuitive but from everything I've read about wheel building, spoke tension does not affect wheel stiffness.
I think it's a shame about the Enves breaking. Clearly they really want to make the best wheels they can. If you look at them in detail they are not the same as the cheaper carbon rims. The spoke holes, for example are moulded with the fibres flowing around them rather than drilled through the fibres as LB etc do. Whether that kind of attention to detail is worth 6x as much is up to you - its the law of diminishing returns as always.
cookeaa - MemberFor MTB use I think there is a way to go, what seems to have happened is that deepmsections and low spoke counts have been transposed from road wheels and they are not hacking it in all situations...
I don't see it. FWIW mine were a bolt-on replacement for an alu rim I'd mangled, rebuilt with the same spokes because straigtpull revs are not cheap... So really very equivalent to a typical mtb wheel. The second set I'm getting built are deeper but still not like a road deep section wheelset- they're in line with some metal rims.
The whole bigger/wider thing didn't start with carbon after all, it's something people have been doing with metal for years.
Sounds like the carbon "cant afforders" and "haters" are just looking for another reason to try and justlfy their position...Kudos to Enve for investigation the issue and finding a solution.. The chances are that, the wheels that were on test, were probably prototypes or early production models. So they may or may not have been up to same standard as the finished articles...
Just like the 650b threads.... just because you cant afford to buy them.. it doesnt mean that they are pointless.. There is a reason that they are available and the people who use them are able to see the benefits. They are lighter, track better and accelerate faster than alloy rims. Put those together and you will see performance increases..
It's not a question of whether or not they are worth the money.. If you can't afford them.. You will never know.. Just stop being a whiney little bi*ch and go ride your bike.
Haha. Oh wait. Were you being serious?
They are lighter, track better and accelerate faster than alloy rims. Put those together and you will see performance increases..
That's more about carbon rims, what do Enve specifically do? They're not lighter. They're not appearing to be stronger.
Do people look at the enve sticker and go WOW you must be money to burn BOYO
I actually find the whole composite rims thing fascinating, on road bikes I think they work as they are, a straight replacement for an alloy rim in a traditionally constructed, spoked wheel...
The funny thing is last year We looked at a problem for a company who asked how do we make super tuff rims the fact we could make a rim cheap with no chance of it delaminating or destroying itself and was pretty much not epoxy based anymore blew their minds, problem was as with lots of other bike things set up costs and a tech no one had used was too big a jump.........the only thing is this has existed for 20 years and the aerospace folks are only just cottoning on, once these appear in the public domain as more of a normal way to do things both the material and method will be used more and more i can guarantee it will be some marketing guff saying awesome
the bike industry likes little steps then at the right time some companies capitalize on that
Tuffs, what about ACS Z Rims?
I don't own a house. We rent, it's more cost effective. My priorities are not house purchases (for lots of reasons). But it allows me lots of disposable income to do things I enjoy. I like that lifestyle.
I wouldn't for one minute ask anyone why they need anything more than what I've got. As I understand peoples priorities are different and will justify what they've chosen. Isn't this the global debate from a certain vantage point?
As a film maker/production company we have to deal with people claiming their dslr's shoot quality as good as our Red Epic cameras - and they're not worth 10 times as much. Same debate here too. People not understanding what you are paying for and why you chose that more expensive part. Fine, deal with it but most of it is born out a culture of knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing.
(On top of this I have an almost impossible task of not always trying to buy the cheapest as I think there is usually some exploitation going on there with labour or quality control. It's a tricky principle to deal with but I don't believe the world is better for sweatshop/tat. Not that I'm putting everything in that category that we're debating.)
