Its not the environmental cost of emtb's thats the issue, its the actual monetary cost, they're horrendously expensive for what you get, and unreliable, but they are simultaneously ace.
If they were cheaper, loads of people would have one.
Why are people so in denial the extra wear on the trails and all the cut corners and extra lines?
It’s fact! I’ve seen them do it, and on an Enduro course I’ve seen the extra depth they dig into holes in the soft parts of the track.
What a load of guff.
Cutting corners, extra lines have been issues with trails since forever, long before ebikes were even a thing. On a recent trail we cut in on a less known hillside that got spotted near a very popular off piste area & ridden a lot as a result, we literally sat & watched wobblers way out of their depth, blowing up catch berms and straightlining between corners because they couldn't ride it. Guess what, not one ebike.
Are you going to ban heavy people on trails too? Or those with grippier tyres who tear up corners more? What about fast guys who hit stuff harder?
In case anyone wants it from hereon in:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
@tjagain @dyna-ti'You can't fix everything so you shouldn't fix something small' is not a valuable argument, it's whattaboutism. You can try and fix all of those things and I try on my own, but that doesn't require you to talk about all of those things every time you talk about one of them? This isn't a car forum? Isn't doing something (reducing waste to chains and tyres) better than doing nothing (raping third world countries for their lithium)?
@oceanskipper Yeah, you pretty much did say there isn't any evidence. I try and do all of those things. I didn't say that eBikes should be banned, especially when they replace car journeys. However, turning up to your local trail centre or peak District car park in your Audi Q7 with two 180mm eBikes on the roof should make you think twice - except of course, well done you; you shared the lift rather than bringing the X3 as well.
@ianbradbury I have severe arthritis. How does that excuse my any responsibility?
article is full of faeces, input from the highly unreliable CCC who don't think about non UK emissions/waste when comapiring battery technology.
Anyway, back to ebikes. They are worse, like for like - it has precious metals that little slave boys/girls have had to die for your pleasure, but it's OK it doesn't happen in the UK or EU so we can put our fingers in our ears and go lalalalalala cant hear you (like the CCC does). It was already mentioned earlier, carbon is hideous as well, massively energy intensive to produce and un-recyclable (despite what some comapnies might tell you).
the probelm we've all got, is that we are doing something we dont need to do, so all guilty of adding to the problem, it's just to what level are you willing to accept your impact on the environmant - some are more willing than others..
continuity - to complain about thwe small environmental cost of e mtbs are daft when there are much bigger targets to go after and when reducing car journeys which is what most e bikes are doing is a huge boon
the probelm we’ve all got, is that we are doing something we dont need to do, so all guilty of adding to the problem, it’s just to what level are you willing to accept your impact on the environmant – some are more willing than others..
A very good point but what about that beam in your eye?
And your argument " it has precious metals that little slave boys/girls have had to die for your pleasure, but it’s OK it doesn’t happen in the UK or EU so we can put our fingers in our ears and go lalalalalala cant hear you" applies to anything battery powered so laptops, electic cars, etc etc
TJs not talking whataboutry he’s making the point (as have others) that the environmental impact of a eMTB is minuscule in the scheme of things. Once we’ve reduced our flying addiction, shifted the power generation away from fossil, and stopped buying shit we don’t need, then you can cast around at what’s left.
Are you going to ban heavy people on trails too?
Wait until those heavy people get on a plane then drive a car to have children.
Wouldn’t happen if they were riding their ebikes.
@tjagain I've said like 3-4 times now that if an ebike journey replaces a car it's a great choice. I'm asking people to think about leisure use.
But I don't agree that you should ignore small, easy to fix problems just because there are bigger ones out there. It would be very difficult to live without a car in some places, almost impossible to survive without a smartphone - but you can reduce your flights for leisure. Why not just go for a shorter bike ride? What right have you to get up that steep hill if you aren't fit enough? You wouldn't fix a stair lift to the side of Dina's cromlech?
As I said - this is a forum for mountain bikers - so I'm asking about a destructive externality of emtbing. That doesn't mean there aren't other issues. You wouldn't argue 'we shouldn't improve equality in the UK because of the treatment of the uguihurs in china'. Making things better isn't always a zero sum game?
Think about the amount of energy wasted by the op starting his stupid trolling about ebikes thread.
Of course, he will be using a device made of recycled twigs, and powered by humanly treated hamsters, not a phone or computer made of badly mined rare metals.
It’s an interesting one. If people get eMTBs for fun, what if that replaces a hobby with a worse impact, like car trackdays? Or what if someone gets an eMTB for fun and that inspires them to start cycling to work instead of driving?
What if electric bikes can make cycling more pleasant for all potential utility/commuter cyclists anywhere hilly, so more people cycle rather than drive? And eMTBs is a side effect of those utility ebikes.
Anyone who has a problem with ebikes, have any of them ever bought Bitcoin? 😉
Getting old is inevitable..
Considered other things aside from age?
What a load of guff.
Cutting corners, extra lines have been issues with trails since forever..
The usual "this isn't an issue, cos this"...
Nobody on the trails I've ridden has been as heavy as a biffer on an ebike.
It's guff, yeah, I imagined it all.
As I said: denial.
Little question that the production of batteries is not entirely without an environmental mental cost, but compared to cars? Small bloody potatoes...
But where you have the opportunity to make a small change that costs you little but reduces your footprint, then I think it’s morally good to do so and if you don’t you should feel ashamed.
Still eat meat and dairy do you..?
One of the biggest ways to reduce your carbon footprint is by giving up both, according to almost every climate group.
Funny how the majority of people complaining about the environmental effects of technology are the ones who won't do that..
I think the problem is just rampant consumerism.
Pretty much, but try telling the members of a consumer society that consumer culture is a bad thing...
The big impact of e-bikes will be on making it possible for fairly unfit people to commute by bicycle, which is a good thing.
Excellent! When will that be starting then?
The sales of eMTBs seem pretty healthy but I'm not really spotting them weaving through rush hour traffic...
A car is orders of magnitude worse than a bike. An e-bike is a bike with an electric motor and battery.
Interesting that the baseline for E-bikes environmental impact is always "they're better than a car". In an age where the justifications for every thoughtless, consumer decision that incrementally damages the environment is being chipped away at, we've invented a whole new thing to justify as be "only a little bit bad for the planet" but it's OK cause E-bikes is fun!...
Pretty much all manufactured goods (yes including non-e-bikes) are bad for the environment, that doesn't absolve us of considering those impacts and how we trade them off for the sake of simple convenience...
It would be very difficult to live without a car in some places, almost impossible to survive without a smartphone
Both these assertions are utter nonsense Yo cannot survive without a smartphone? Really? You are going to die if you do not have one?
“ Excellent! When will that be starting then?”
I don’t know where you live but in Brighton I’m seeing more and more bike commuters, with a lot on ebikes. I remember 3 years ago it was quite a rare thing. But Brighton being Brighton is probably ahead of the curve.
Problem with an e-bike is that the bits that make it an ebike have to be replaced several times on warranty so really you’re buying 5 or 6 bikes worth by the time your warranty runs out. 😂😂
It would be very difficult to live without a car in some places, almost impossible to survive without a smartphone
Wow I’ve read some drivel on this website but that takes the biscuit. Must take the award for stupidest post of the year! 😂😂
In an age where the justifications for every thoughtless, consumer decision that incrementally damages the environment is being chipped away at
Whilst I can see some justification in that I think there is also a huge danger. The general populous is not sophisticated enough in its knowledge not to treat them equally or think they have ticked the box when in reality the box was hardly worth ticking. Supermarket bags being a classic example - huge swathes of the population felt ever so proud of themselves and felt they were doing their bit when switching to 'bags for life' without appreciating what a stupendously small change that was is the big scale of things and in reality what they were putting in those bags and the food choices they were making as well as their preferred method of transporting those bags were hundreds if not thousands of times more important. Sadly the general populous has a finite limit on how much we mess with their normal in any given time frame. We wasted some of that on a high profile piffling change.
I can see the argument that a normal bike rider switching to an ebike is a detrimental environmental step, everything else staying equal; but in the grand scheme of things it's not the issue that going to keep me awake at night when there are so many other bigger problems. If it increases the number of people doing outdoor leisure that's great. And if the technology gets pushed along to make ebike commuting become affordable, functionally better and socially accepted faster than it would have otherwise done on the back of the advancements made to please a few high end toy purchasers then maybe it's not all that bad.
The usual “this isn’t an issue, cos this”…
Nobody on the trails I’ve ridden has been as heavy as a biffer on an ebike.
It’s guff, yeah, I imagined it all.
As I said: denial.
As opposed to your version of 'the truth' huh?
Do me & my ebike with a combined weight of 100kg rip up trails more than my 90kg mate with his 15kg non-ebike?
Ah, but yes, you saw a few guys on eebs cutting some corners, so yes, we're all trail trashing, planet killing, fat wasters who live for the straight lines.
Just like all cyclists are red light jumping povvo's who don't pay road tax (sic) and can't afford cars, right?
article is full of faeces, input from the highly unreliable CCC who don’t think about non UK emissions/waste when comapiring battery technology.
Plus it's basing the maths on EU targets for battery recycling in general, without even a footnote to say that there's currently no viable way of doing that for Li-Ion batteries, and the impact on the figures without recycling is "x". Last time I checked there was just a heavily subsidised research facility in France doing it.
Interesting that the baseline for E-bikes environmental impact is always “they’re better than a car”. In an age where the justifications for every thoughtless, consumer decision that incrementally damages the environment is being chipped away at, we’ve invented a whole new thing to justify as be “only a little bit bad for the planet” but it’s OK cause E-bikes is fun!…
Aren't ALL MTBs a thoughtless consumer decision that is bad for the planet, justified because it is fun??
eMTBs are only a tiny proportion of all eBikes that get sold every year. The vast majority are used by commuters in countries that don’t hate bicycles. On that basis, eBikes do get people out of cars and onto bikes, you just don’t see it in the UK.
Anyway, back to ebikes. They are worse, like for like – it has precious metals that little slave boys/girls have had to die for your pleasure, but it’s OK it doesn’t happen in the UK or EU so we can put our fingers in our ears and go lalalalalala cant hear you (like the CCC does). It was already mentioned earlier, carbon is hideous as well, massively energy intensive to produce and un-recyclable (despite what some comapnies might tell you).
I don't believe eBikes have precious metals, they have rare earth metals, which are predominantly found in China, Russia and some African countries, they do not tend to be mined by children, instead they are large quarry like operations.
But I don’t agree that you should ignore small, easy to fix problems just because there are bigger ones out there.
Good for you, get on and fix all the small problems then.
As pointed out above, people could also easily fix some big problems too (maybe even you?) by not consuming meat or dairy. I did that 37 years ago and would put it in the very easy to fix category.
I don’t believe eBikes have precious metals,
yes they do - gold, platinum, paladium is on the circuit boards. nonetheless splitting hairs, elements from harmful mining and dredging operations are on ebikes, not otherwise found on non-ebikes. If you're looking at China, russia and Africa as becons of good practice then....well we should tell the ngo's they've got othing to worry about.
Probably less than what is in the device you just typed that message in to ;o)
The problem with bicycles was that they were relatively cheap, simple to maintain and lasted a long time. Parts were interchangeable and could be bought from a variety of sources.
Freemarket capitalism has solved these problems with the ebike.
Freemarket capitalism has solved these problems with the
ebikemultiplication of standards.
Good to see this is in no way divisive!
eBikes - don't own one, never tried one, don't think I fancy one but I know lots of folks with them.
Find myself with conflicted feelings. LOVE seeing older people out on ebikes of all kinds. Love seeing couples or small groups out riding together on a mixture of e and non-e that otherwise might not be able to. Less keen on the sight of a family out riding recently, where the (quite young) kids had ebikes. Definitely not keen on seeing pretty unfit-looking riders on ebikes heading repeatedly up the moor at the Golfie riding through the heather at both edges of the track.
I suspect my innate rejection of the idea (and I'm well aware that counts for f-all) ultimately comes from the fact that the standard bicycle is one of humankind's better inventions. Of course there's costs and impacts involved in production, maintenance etc but at a base level its a human-powered machine capable of transporting humans great distances under their own steam. Ebikes aren't that.
As for the environmental cost - there's obviously some additional cost over a standard bike, but batteries are so ubiquitous it feels insignificant.
That "let he who is without sin" argument is a load of piss though. Use of a bible quote to say let's never try to change anything until we can change everything. Away ye go.
So what after that? You stop eating red meat and announce yourself as having solved resource crisis and go buy a diesel transporter for your #vanlife?
I am enjoying the straws being clutched. But.. do you drink milk? Do you have a phone? Are you doing anything but living on an agro-commune in Wales?
If you keep thinking it's about me - it's probably about you.
Aren’t ALL MTBs a thoughtless consumer decision that is bad for the planet, justified because it is fun??
Yep (which I noted in the paragraph below the one you selectively quoted), but at least they're not as bad as e-bikes, so you get double enviro-virtue points for going "acoustic" (assuming you leave the campervan at home that day) 😉
It's not so much that e-MTBs are a terrible thing for the planet, it's the weak claims that their purchase shows any kind of consideration of their environmental impact, when we know they don't...
eMTBs are only a tiny proportion of all eBikes that get sold every year. The vast majority are used by commuters in countries that don’t hate bicycles. On that basis, eBikes do get people out of cars and onto bikes, you just don’t see it in the UK.
This is a fair point, and I am certainly approaching this topic from a rather "UK-centric" POV, where and army of dickheads merrily batter their credit rating to own environmentally damaging toys, just to show off to next door...
E-bikes might well contribute globally (at least in the near term) to reducing emissions, where they replace other forms a of transport. But here in Blighty where they're primarily purchased as a lifestyle bolt-on, rather than a car replacement they probably cause a net increase and we all know it...
But here in Blighty where they’re primarily purchased as a lifestyle bolt-on, rather than a car replacement they probably cause a net increase and we all know it…
Using the word "probably" means that you don't actually know it, you're just having a guess. If you want to claim to know for sure, show some research on how many there are and how they're used. My guess is that it's not the huge problem you believe.
Trying to live a perfectly sustainable carbon neutral lifestyle in a world in which consumerism is expected and the world is built around car transport is so incredibly difficult, very few people can do it, so ultimately it will make almost zero difference to the unsustainable nature of the world..
It also pits people against each other arguing who is most virtuous in petty arguments, whilst the much larger problems go unchallenged.
So yes, you can complain that eMTBs are less sustainable than MTBs, but it's such a small part of the problem, it won't change anything.
Do your best, and campaign or vote to change the system.
(And part of that, might be restricting, taxing, or labelling all consumer goods with their lifetime environmental cost or something)
And stop saying "whataboutism"
IMO
But here in Blighty where they’re primarily purchased as a lifestyle bolt-on, rather than a car replacement they probably cause a net increase and we all know it…
I too would need to see some industry figures before I 'know it' too. My hunch is you are right that the purchase choices here are more mtb biased than in the EU is generally but if I was to judge with my own eyes the opposite would be true. I see one emtb regularly and 10-12 hybrids ebikes when I go into the local town. I just have the humility to know not to trust my eyes as de facto truth gathers just because they are mine!
The calculation is also a bit more complex than just replaces car journey like-4-like. My 75 year mother and partner are a good example. 2020 saw them buy hybrid ebikes and do 3000km on them. The vast majority of those were leisure miles with a few rides over to see us or to the shops. 2019 would have seen them walking for roughly the same amount of time - QED ebike replaces walking = bad. Complicating factor being they drove to those walks but rode from home. Therefore ebike replaces car drive to do leisure activity = good.
But here in Blighty where they’re primarily purchased as a lifestyle bolt-on, rather than a car replacement they probably cause a net increase and we all know it…
Really? I see them being used as car replacements all the time. yesterday I saw a woman riding an electric backfiets with 3 kids in the box. Now way could she have done that withot the electric assist. We also have delivery companies using them and even the hire bikes have some electric bikes. e bikes as utility bikes are a fast growing thing in Edinburgh and although we are a bit of an outlier in cycle usage there is no doubt at all in my mind that they are commonly used as car alternatives
so do you have any data to back that up? Or is it just an opinion based on confirmation bias?
Why do we never talk about the environmental cost of eMTB’s?
Probably for the same reason we don't talk about the environmental cost of pretty much every other electrical item you own.
You don't need a tv in your house but I bet you have one. The environmental impact of all the tv's produced every year far outweighs the impact of a comparatively small number of ebikes.
And closer to home I'd bet the environmental impact of manufacturing normal bikes far outweighs the impact of ebikes as well, simply as there are so many more of them being built
Better drop Elon Musk a quick e-mail to tell him he has got it wrong.. The initial impact on the environment to build an electric car is probably worse than a standard petrol car.
You can say the same thing about wind farms, solar power etc. Got a carbon neutral house in our road, very environmentally friendly except the tonnes of concrete used to build it.They all have an impact on the environment when being made.
There is so much bile around people who ride e-bikes most of it is unjustified. I know people in their 70's riding e-bikes and that can only be a good thing, healthier population less people needing medical care.As for not getting fit on an e-bike that's bunkum too, if you don't pedal you don't go anywhere and if that is the case you don't get fit then I need to give up walking.
As for an impact on the trails I'd say most of the damage to my local trails come from riders chasing KOM on a certain app, cutting corners braking late etc and I've seen it first hand while doing trail maintenance. If you don't like e-bikes good for you but you'll have to suck it up because they are here to stay. Most pro XC,CX,DH and enduro riders ride them off season. Nice new vid of Rob Warner riding with Danny Hart is on youtube.
So what after that? You stop eating red meat and announce yourself as having solved resource crisis and go buy a diesel transporter for your #vanlife?
Well if everybody stopped eating meat it would certainly go a lot further to solving the crisis than any other similarly as easy thing people could do. After that it is all about where you draw the line but if people can't even do such a simple thing as not eating meat then the harder things like not having a car are not going anywhere are they. Being concerned about eBikes is so far down the list that they are not even visible.
The op's lack of imagination in the thread is matched by assuming it all goes in the bin.
if people can’t even do such a simple thing as not eating meat then the harder things like not having a car are not going anywhere are they.
Actually, I'd find it easier to not own a car than to stop eating meat completely.
Actually, I’d find it easier to not own a car than to stop eating meat completely.
As they both have a similar reduction in carbon footprint; go on then, do it. Put your money where your mouth is.
