“Bikes just got a LOT more complex.”
No they didn’t. A bike is still a bike.
An e-bike / e-mtb is a different thing.
If you can list the components of an non e bike with a similar spec, like for like, e-bike and tell me the list is shorter for the e bike I'll post on here saying I am incorrect in my assertion.
Your point about them being different is moot anyway. Of course they are. That is my point, an e-bike is a far more complex mechanism being part mechanical, part electronic/electric.
As for it not being a bike anymore, you better run that past trail centres and other e bike riders as I think you will find they still say they are a bike...
Till then, are you even serious bud??....
But, there is no denying they ARE motorised vehicles and should not be allowed in places where mopeds / motorbikes / cars aren’t allowed. (Like Somerset which banned greenlaning / motorbikes off-road a good few years back)
Those green laners were riding legally on roads, just because it isn’t covered in tarmac, doesn’t mean it’s not a road.
The red sock brigade have a very large budget and lots of political connections so they use that to have roads reclassified down to footpaths & bridleways, but preferably footpaths. Because sometimes 95% use of the trail network that trail bikes can’t go on just isn’t enough.
yup. but now banned all the same.
Poopscoop you miss the point.
a bicycle is a bike.
a ebike is an bike.
ebike is not equal to bicycle. and yes, is more complex, with many shared components with a bicycle.
obviously differences motor, battery, ECU / display
complexity/components wise. ebike > bicycle.
an ebike is more like a bicycle than a motorbike, but is still not a bicycle.
it has a motor. just not fossil fueled.
Except for BB/crank ALL components are still the same though.
Obviously the BB is replaced by a motor drive system a controller wheel sensors and a battery are the only real differences. None of which are user serviceable during the warranty period.
Break something and the choice is replace it or claim warranty.
Yes they're more complex but to maintain they're not really much extra bother at all. (Within warranty period)
Decent S/H Emtbs hold their value way better than S/H regular bikes of similar spec level.
I personally find this mental.
I wouldn't buy a S/H Ebike at all though.
an ebike is more like a bike than a motorbike, but is still [s]not[/s] a bike.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Bike+definition
har.
they hold value because they're rare right now.
i'd probably not touch one S/H given the price of things like batteries. but as I mentioned before. there are likely to be a lot of e-bikes sat barely used in garages that people come to sell in a few years. a bit like fat bikes and golf clubs, however with e-bikes there are more types of bike and a bigger target market across all types. and more compatibility/shared components with things like plus bikes etc. at least if a motor/battery dies you can swap wheelsets, drive train etc to another eMTB or normal MTB
might be worth re-reading my original post (with many typing flaws as I was rushing out of the office) to see where i stand, before jumping on latest comments at face value.
Oi! Keep that arguing about definition carp in the ebike rant thread!
Inevitable I suppose...
I wasn't arguing.
I was correcting the wrong!
Canopy, you are so far removed from the purpose of this thread.... and the reasons I replied to it, regarding and relating to the op's topic, that I just don't know how to reply to you mate??
You seem to be having an existential crisis over what an e-bike is and I can't help you there!
The thread is actually an interesting topic which will be even more relevant over the years to come as e-bikes become ever more popular. You seem to be going off on tangents that merit their own thread perhaps?
I echo what others have said, bit of a gamble going for a 2nd hand E-bike which will likely have no warranty and not a wide range of places which could refurb the motor parts. I dont get some of the other comments in this thread though:
as a normal rider on undulating single width trails where you have to climb you get caught time and again e-bikers tailgating you on climbs
I ride a lot and am because of this quite fit, I catch people up all the time on hills or sometimes the downs, this is not a new situation IMO
But they are spoiling trail centers etc
How? The catching people up part I mention above? I'm sure people enjoying their weekly cruise around a trail centre love hearing the enduro brigade come up behind them at speed or crossing the official trail on a piece of offpiste trail? or schwalping berms for sick edits? or maybe the lack of etiquette which all new riders need to learn and even some non ebikers still dont get?
I suspect an awful lot of these are being bought as ” the new golf” and we may well see a glut of them on the market over the next couple of years
I haven't seen it down here in the SW, the two guys I know who picked them up to get back into riding and ride with people they know who never stopped. It's never nice being the waited for person at the top of a hill or being the people that are waiting!
Just my two cents, haters have to hate on something!
I ride a lot and am because of this quite fit, I catch people up all the time on hills or sometimes the downs, this is not a new situation IMO
its a bit different when its a normal rider and a couple ebikers on singletrack ascents. fortunately i dont do most of my riding in that env.
OP my last reply is directly about the topic / s/h market and your origiinal question.
yes there willl be more S/h when more people have actually boiught them. yes nature dictates that some of those purchasers bought them thinking they'd ride more because its easier (but if youre lazy shit it wont change that, you still have to leave the house..). yes people will be wary of buying old bikes because of the batteries, and electrics.
My experiences selling, hiring and maintaining them would put me off any 2nd hand purchase. I'd want the longest possible warranty - from the most reputable manufacturer and retailer.
there are likely to be a lot of e-bikes sat barely used in garages that people come to sell in a few years.
Is that because ebikers are actually SO lazy they can’t even be arsed to ride ebikes ?!
It’s worse than I though 😳
Is that because ebikers are actually SO lazy they can’t even be arsed to ride ebikes ?!
Depends on the type of person buying one. If your already a mtb'er and you fancy one as a N+1 then no. But if your someone who struggles with motivation then very possibly. Sometimes actually getting out of the house in the first place is the toughest part of a ride, even for me !
The government will put a tax on them all eventually. Mark my words.
Is that because ebikers are actually SO lazy they can’t even be arsed to ride ebikes ?!
It’s worse than I though 😳
Non-assisted electric bikes will be the next thing they are buying! 😀
The government will put a tax on them all eventually. Mark my words.
3/10 for effort
Too generous colp 🙄
The government will put a tax on them all eventually. Mark my words.
They already do it’s called VAT!
Adding value isn’t a concept rydster is familiar with.
I think the market for 2nd hand ebikes could help the LBS. People afraid of buying one privately might be happier going to a shop for a warranty (I think someone mentioned this). A motor unit isnt hard to strip down and rebuild, it' not like we going to ask an LBS mechanic to replace individual electronic components - they will either replace an obvious internal part - gears, whole circuit board etc or just swap out the motor with a refurb specialist or the OEM.
It will be a bit more like car ownership for some people. Some people see their cars as hobbies and cherished possessions and love driving. Some people see cars as a means of transport. You also see this with high end mountain bikes, some people wont bat an eyelid to popping out to a bike shop and spending £5k on a high end bike (not ebike), they just want to ride it, they dont care what gears it has or what wheels it has. They probably chose it as it has Fox forks and shock without knowing anything about the alternatives. They wont have any desire to do anything other than ride that bike and then it will sit in the garage when they get bored of it. That is very much what I see as the ebike market and they will be the ones that potentially keep the LBS alive and trade in, trade up etc unlike "enthusiasts" who want to tinker and know everything about their bikes...and then probably buy bits online as they are cheaper....
One thing that would be good is to standardise on the frame mountings but that is probably never going to happen as the manufacturers are still very much competing trying to get the smallest, lightest etc unit. At some point it would be nice to have a standard frame shape you could swap for any motor unit and a standard battery connector. The integrated vs discrete battery problem will still exist.
Hmm that's like saying fuel duty isn't an additional tax.
Just out of interest how many people do you know who regularly MTB on 5 grand bikes who can't pump a tyre up? I don't mean people who buy a bike as a costly fad and use it a handful of times and get bored of it.
Granted I've not done much cycling for a few years but back in the day the only fully mechanically ignorant I knew who cycled was the gf of one my mates.
As for e-bikes a DC motor is a very simple piece of kit and along with speed controller/electronics should work long after the bike is obsolete IMHO. If the LBS needs to change the motor out every 6 months then we have a design problem.
I know a 60 yr old 20 stone man who has a £6k carbon Specialized Enduro he's only ever cycled half a mile to the local school and back with his son. His pretty young wife pumps up the tyres for him
Pretty much living the dream don't you think?
CBA to find out what your point is/was/ever will be
I've only got a year warranty on my bafang, but I've had a look at tear down videos, doesn't really look all that complex tbh. If it breaks, longs as I can get parts, I'll keep it running.
As for the battery, I doubt it'll completely drain, it will lose some capacity as time goes but it tells you how many charge cycles etc, so this is something you can judge.
I'd imagine as time goes on and the 2nd market for dedicated ebikes expands, which it obviously will. Youtube will be littered with how to strip down videos, and a replacement parts sector will appear(there's just too many getting sold now for this not to happen).
It's most likely my only route to a dedicated £3/4k ebike (about 1 to 1.5k is my limit on bike spending eveyr 5 years or so), buy a broken one, fix it. So bring on the 2nd hand market! 😆
I'm not getting an Ebike until they come down in price substantially.
1) It costs £5k (or more) for a decent one, and in two years, how much is it going to be worth ?
2) A full suspension mountain bike with a dropper post is already requires very frequent maintenance. At least with regular and heavy use on rough terrain. The maintenance of an E-bike sounds a complete nightmare. With the added 3 things that can go wrong (Motor, Battery and Controls) on top of everything else. Not to mention the higher stress components will be under due to the higher average speed and weight.
3) On turbo mode a decent EMTB will only last about 15 miles until the battery is drained, on hilly moderate trail like CYB. On Eco mode you could get about 25 to 30 miles out of it, but then is it worth spending all that money just to ride on Eco all the time ?
4) Cleaning. You can't just spray one with a hose pipe or it will damage the electric equipment (controls, motor and battery). So that means if it's muddy weather it's going to be hard to clean because you can't use a hose.
If people can refurb Teslas and get them running with zero manufacturer support (and in fact having as many walls put up as possible) then an ebike will be a piece of piss. Batteries are fairly easy to maintain, motors haven't changed much in the last century and the controllers will be rolling off a far eastern production line. I dare say someone will be working on an RPi/Arduino solution right now if they haven't already.
4) Cleaning. You can’t just spray one with a hose pipe or it will damage the electric equipment (controls, motor and battery). So that means if it’s muddy weather it’s going to be hard to clean because you can’t use a hose.
Presumably that means you can't use them in the rain either? Or near puddles.
Here we go again
1. Taking just one example: 2019 Canyon NEURON:ON 5.0... not far off the performance of the base (£4k) Levo. in other ways outperforming it for just £2999. for £400 more you get the fox suspended NEURON 6.0 which is arguably better spec'd than the £5k Levo. you'd struggle to get many regular bikes spec'd as well as the 5.0 for much less
similarly look at Commie, Vitus etc if descending is more your thing. or discounted 2018 bikes
2. Sees the mechanic? Really? You've been a regular on here for long enough to have picked up the gist of how bikes work. buy a few tools and learn some basic maintenance skills. There's really nothing much else to maintain than a regular full sus mtb. and thereis no HIGH STRESS unless you're a muppet who constantly changes gear under load.
3. Range is rider dependent. weight/riding style/gradient ridden. Forget about mileage. Assuming you're not mega heavy you'll get 3000-4500ft of climbing out of a full battery in boost. Varying by gradient surface climbed
Trail a little more but not massively.
Eco a bit more again. absolute Min 4500 IME
Generally on the flat you don't burn anywhere near as much battery so that Ascent figure translates fairly well to anything from a mega steep 10miles or a much more mellow 25. Local from the door riding round here is fairly flat and 40miles is easily doable on one charge.(2000ft ish flat)
If you're pissed off CYB (never been, sorry) will be over too quickly or you'll run out of battery. It's not going to ruin your ride unless you're knackered. just keep riding it after the battery is done or ride back to the car/van and take your regular bike out for a bit longer.
4. Mine is stored indoors so has been cleaned properly around 100 times with hot soapy water and a hot water hose and more than a few times with OMG!!11!! a Jetwash111! Each wash has never taken longer than 10 minutes, exactly the same time (and exactly the same cleaning routine) as my non-Ebikes.
WhoTF buys bikes thinking about resale value? Buy it, ride it as it's meant to be ridden and enjoy the thing. Whatever you get for it a few years down the line (even if it's pennies) was worth every penny.
Preferring descending to climbing and never having been shy of pushing up or uplift I've never understood the "cyclist fear" of an Ebike. so I'd been thinking I'd eventually get one for quite a few years. always eager to ask questions if I ever met someone out riding one. but was also waiting until they finally got down to a reasonable weight, price and range and had good suspension and gravity orientated geometry They'e at that point now and have been for at least a full product year. They are only going to get better but the newer breed of far lighter Ebikes coming in the next year or so will be more expensive with less range. So why put it off if you actually want one?
Except for BB/crank ALL components are still the same though
Not strictly always true, upspecced ‘ebike specific’ parts are becoming commonplace sacrificing some weight for greater strength.
I know places like MTBbatteries are looking into the idea of recelling commercially. Without seeing the inside of typical ebike batteries I wouldn’t want to commit, but if they’re essentially a tube full of 18650’s or whatever soldered together then I’d definitely rather pay someone with a capacitative welder to assemble it than risk blowing the pack up in my face. I can’t see manufacturers using diy friendly battery boxes by default.
I’ve heard stories of motor replacement. What is it that’s actually going? Brushes or the like that should be replaceable or something to do with the pedelec assistance? Totally agree, DC motors shouldn’t be burning up so fast so is it actually about a lack of LBS motor rebuilding skills or something more fundamental in the design?
The "stress" on the frame/components is surely going to be higher than a normal bike due to the increased speed.
I’ve never understood the “cyclist fear” of an Ebike
The fear is the amount of money they cost. Or at least, that's my fear about them. When investing £5k+ I've got to be sure its going to be right.
I'm sure I'll end up with one anyway just not sure when
Not strictly always true, upspecced ‘ebike specific’ parts are becoming commonplace sacrificing some weight for greater strength.
Yeah. but that's just a load of marketing bollocks to sell stuff to the gullible. If you need strong Enduro/DH/jump bike parts on your reglar bike that's what you'll need on your Ebike, if you are fine with lighter trail/XC parts that's all you'll need on your Ebike (of similar travel, purpose). Ebikes are going to be big. there are companies coining in on Ebike lubes, bike wash, chains, cassettes, saddles etc. When in reality all the products already available are perfectly suitable for all your bikes.
The “stress” on the frame/components is surely going to be higher than a normal bike due to the increased speed.
What increased speed? They don't decend any faster, and that's where any extra stress would be seen. not climbing. On the flat a restricted bike is slightly slower than a non-assisted bike.
The fear is the amount of money they cost. Or at least, that’s my fear about them.
Refreshing to hear. There is definitely a load of irrational fear around
When investing £5k+ I’ve got to be sure its going to be right.
I've just shown you you don't need to spend £5k or anywhere near it. No bike you're going to ride off-road is ever going to be an investment so get that notion out of your head straight away. It's a luxury item and like any other bike a toy. (plenty folk dress them up as sporting equipment, yet all the sportsmen I can think of generally get paid to play their sport)
I've had one motor replaced so far. Shimano and it was the main BB bearings (creaking and developed play). Eventually i see us being able to service these. but for now it's back to Shimano for a brand new motor.
Bosch/Brose have different issues
As for batteries .They're also warrantied for 2 years and after that I can get a Genuine Shimano 504W battery for £380 so don't see the need to find someone to Re-Cell mine unless it was a professional warrantied job and considerably cheaper.
4) Cleaning. You can’t just spray one with a hose pipe or it will damage the electric equipment (controls, motor and battery). So that means if it’s muddy weather it’s going to be hard to clean because you can’t use a hose.
Hahahaha 😂 ffs
who told you that?! And why on earth did you believe them 🙄
I’ve just shown you you don’t need to spend £5k or anywhere near it.
Well even your cheap examples above at £3000+ are not chump change. When you think you can get a 2017 model something or other for £1500 it's still double the outlay. Sure, i get that bikes are expensive if you want them to be. But basically looking at specs of equivalent Eebs and standard bikes, the Eeb is double the cost for the same specs.
It may not matter to many/some/everyone, but it certainly matters to many of us.
the Eeb is double the cost for the same specs.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/stu-b/28220794827/in/dateposted/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/stu-b/29888684157/in/dateposted/
The top one cost me less than the bottom one
Pretty similar spec on these two.
Deals are available...
LOL you've picked one of the most expensive frames on the market.
The Kenevo was also considerably cheaper...
LOL you’ve picked one of the most expensive frames on the market.
There's stuff out there that costs a lot more than a Geometron.
A quick look on CRC shows the Cube Stereo RRP being £1900 for the non-assisted and £3699 for the Eeb.
The Cube reaction HT for example is showing as £1799 for the Eeeeeeb and £1200 for the base model....
So maybe not always double.... But i rekon at the higher/decent end of Full Suss it's certainly right up there?
But i rekon at the higher/decent end of Full Suss it’s certainly right up there?
Just pointing out it doesn't have to be.🙂
Fair point .... I'll be half right, half wrong 🙂
I'm still not buying into them as being anywhere near the same price in general. But i'm more staying away from personal preference than the actual cost.
@Weeksy you can be fully wrong too if you'd like. 😉
When I bought my Vitus it's RRP was around £200 more than that of an almost identically spec'd Alu Nukeproof Mega (Pro I think) . The Mega was 165/170mm mine 160/170mm travel. Incredibly similar geometry, very similar suspension design and kinematics. Both frames produced in the same factory and assembled by the same people. Both had Lyrik forks, S.Deluxe RT3, Guide RE on mine RS on mega,11 speed XT on mine GX on the mega, boost DT Swiss wheels on mine Boost mavics on the mega and the same Maxxis tyres on both. Nukeproof finishing kit and same spec dropper on both. I actually got it for £300 less than RRP of the mega.
to put Ebike prices into perspective slightly the RRP on a shimano E8000 motor is £950, Battery £699, charger £170, display £150 and shifter £120 so in reality you shouldn't really be too surprised for most Ebikes to cost around a grand and a half more than the non ebike version from the same manufacturer.
o put Ebike prices into perspective slightly the RRP on a shimano E8000 motor is £950, Battery £699, charger £170, display £150 and shifter £120
Is that the Gear Shifter that is £120 ? Why are they so much more on an Ebike ?
No. it's the Electric mode select controller/shifter for the motor. Basically a rebadged XT Di2 shifter (which retails for £99).
#ETax #itsathing #£21fool
