[Closed] E mountain bikes a dilemma

How about the critical folk write a list of reasons why they ride a mountain bike? Then beside each reason put the negative affect using an ebike has.

I'm sure there is the odd nutjob who only cycle uphills purely for fitness. They ride alone too, so don't miss the fun and banter of just being out with mates. They walk down hills and across flats as there's no fitness benefit using gravity to aid them. They don't mess about on jumps, berms and drops - working on their bike skills. No need for that crap as pure, undiluted, glorious fitness trumps all. They have no adventure in their lives and don't just go for a gentle ride to explore the land and admire the wonderful scenery. What possible benefit could that softie crap have on them?

Cycling brings joy. And you can't cheat your way to joy (except you Lance 😛 )

Its the same when I see people with hairy legs riding road bikes, its just not right somehow, but its up to them, its their time/life/way of having fun/exercising etc.

I'm pretty sure leg hair doesn't give an extra 250W......

Jeez, quite a few opinionated views on here......

Not a real mountain biker - whatever that is.

Take the piss out of someone on an ebike.........

so, lets get this right then.

Uplift days, well I suppose thats cheating.
Taking the bike to the trail centre, thats ok I suppose, its not cheating by taking the environmentally unfriendly internal combustion engine to ride your bike around the trails.
Not in keeping with the sport of mountain biking, although most people don't race anyway. They just want a bit of fun on their bikes.

I understand that alot of folk have to take a car to get out and ride, thats fine, it means they ride more often and have fun.
I understand the uplift days, they are out having fun riding their bikes.
You still have to pedal the ebike both uphill (with assistance), but downhill the assistance cuts out and if anything its a slight hindrance due to added mass.

The key thing is out riding, different strokes for different folks.

Everyone is out riding their bikes and having their sort of fun.

By the way, I ride both sorts of bike.
Ebike and a normal bike.

Suppose that makes me only half a real mountain biker.

I'm pretty sure leg hair doesn't give an extra 250W

No, but whenever a company releases a new aero doodad, they make a big deal about how many watts it will save you over a ride. Again, seems a little silly saying you are allowed to reduce the amount of watts a rider has to put in for a desired speed (or faster for the same effort), but are cheating if you add watts to what the rider puts out, to acheive the same speed. Different means to the same end, say I.

Or is it just sour grapes that someone can have the same experience as you without having "earned" it? Do you also berate newcomers for buying a nice bike without having "earned it" because they didn't have to suffer all the shit bikes from 15+ years ago?

Or is all this just internet bravado? I've had an ebike for 4months now and while it doesn't get ridden every week (because I have a stable/quiver/squadron of normal bikes that require my attention) the only place anyone has taken umbrage with it (audibly anyway) or the concept of it is online.

*awaits to be called a fat lazy prick next ride out

Take the piss out of someone on an ebike.........

No need to get your knickers in a twist - try reading what I actually said. This was in relation to a regular rider turning up on one, and if they actually had a genuine reason for riding one then we wouldn't rib them (well maybe a bit, but we're mates, so it's allowed)

By the way, I ride both sorts of bike.
Ebike and a normal bike.

But why? It's a lot of money for something that you don't need (obviously most of us don't really [i]need[/i] any of our bikes, but you know what I mean) Why the need for electric assist if you can ride a normal bike. Admit it, I bet you feel that you're cheating just a little bit when you're on it 😉

I was pretty ambivalent until a mate explained that in his busy working life he could get maybe 7 runs of the local DH trails, riding back up after every one in his limited after work time. On an E-bike he does 18! He's able bodied but without the e-assist he'd hardly have time to ride at all

a related question to those with e-bikes. How do they hold up to winter mud and gloop, around the electric bits etc - is it just a case of a hose and muc-off as per a regular mtb, or does extra care need to be taken to not get certain bits wet ?

and how realistic is it to lift them up onto a Thule roof carrier ?

Those who are so against e-bikes, does their use have any impact on you personally? It doesn't, so why get so het up about it? It's like getting cross with someone driving a sporty version of your normal hatchback- they have more power but spend most of the time going the same speed as you. Who cares? Who exactly are they cheating by getting out and enjoying themselves? Not themselves, and not you, because it's not a race.

With regards to the "you should only use one if you're ill" thing - I'm currently fairly ill, I have something wrong with me that means I can't ride uphill as hard as I could a month ago. I really struggled to keep up with the back of my riding group last week, when a month ago I'd have been at the front. If whatever this illness is keeps getting worse and turns out to be permanent I'd get an e-bike. However, as the bellend at work who now calls me "sicknote" is aware of, I look a perfectly healthy person in their late 20's. Who are you to judge whether someone "deserves" an e-bike or not based solely on appearances?

That being said, for the OP I'd stick with riding a normal bike over winter. If you ride with friends they'll understand and they won't care and by this time next year you'll be your old self again. If life keeps getting in the way and it spoils your enjoyment maybe look into getting one next year.

a related question to those with e-bikes. How do they hold up to winter mud and gloop, around the electric bits etc - is it just a case of a hose and muc-off as per a regular mtb, or does extra care need to be taken to not get certain bits wet ?
and how realistic is it to lift them up onto a Thule roof carrier ?

Very well, and I hose mine down just like I do a normal bike. All the leccy bits are well sealed (specialized turbo levo)

Roof rack? Errm, mine weighs 20ish kg... But it has plus tyres so roof racks are out anyway, mine goes on a saris bones of it's going on a rack and that's fine.

No, but whenever a company releases a new aero doodad, they make a big deal about how many watts it will save you over a ride. Again, seems a little silly saying you are allowed to reduce the amount of watts a rider has to put in for a desired speed (or faster for the same effort), but are cheating if you add watts to what the rider puts out, to acheive the same speed. Different means to the same end, say I.

If anyone ever invents an aero doodad that can save 250W going up a 10% grade, they are going to make a LOT of money.

thanks for info tom

The watts advertised as being saved by aero doodads are calculated based on being a race fit rider going fast - usually IIRC 40kmh.

The aero calculation for power is proportional to speed^3, so at lower speeds the saving disappears into the negligible. The entry qualification for an aero benefit being any benefit is to be a good rider going fast; the implication is an arms race versus your competitive peers who are doing the same within the limits of the applicable rules of the competition.

Those who ride aero bikes at moderate pace are not receiving a significant benefit. They might possess a lovely technical object but in their use case the benefit is never meaningfully apparent.

The proposition of e-bikes is not equivalent to aero.

Mountain biking is something that appeals to individuals for individual reasons. A large part of my personal motivation is that it isn't easy; the physical challenge is part of what makes me feel rewarded on a good day and makes me determined to keep my fitness at a generally good level. It is why uplift days are occasional for me (and enjoyed) and trail riding is my normal. I also tend to ride the downhills differently if I'm warmed up from the climb up - usually I am a bunch less anxious even if I am a bit more fatigued.

I have never ridden an e-bike. I would love to have a go on one, as I think it would be a lot of fun.
But I also can't help wishing they did not exist, and I genuinely worry that they may eventually destroy (or at least contribute to the destruction of) normal self-powered mountain bikes.
I think the feeling of assisted pedalling would be extremely addictive, especially to someone who is a bit out of shape but wants to recapture the fun of riding. And I wouldn't mind betting a small amount of cash that a huge number of able bodied e-bike riders are no longer riding their old bikes at all. This is [i]Not A Good Thing[/i], and you will have quite a job convincing me otherwise.

Anyone out on a self-powered bike on a proper difficult trail who gets passed by someone with a motor on their bike will naturally feel cheesed off. They will be annoyed because they know that getting there, to the top of that brutal climb or whatever, has involved work on their part, both in the long and short term. Work that they have put in because they love what they are doing, and want to make the most of their abilities on their bike. The point of mountain biking is that it [i]is[/i] difficult; it is not just a thing that you can pick up like a video game when you feel like a blast of adrenaline. And the regular e-bike rider that just passed you has been able to skip a large part of that work, not because they are carrying an injury or disability, but because they had £5k to burn and didn't fancy doing the hard yards and actually getting fit.

Anyone out on a self-powered bike on a proper difficult trail who gets passed by someone with a motor on their bike will naturally feel cheesed off. They will be annoyed because they know that getting there, to the top of that brutal climb or whatever, has involved work on their part, both in the long and short term. Work that they have put in because they love what they are doing, and want to make the most of their abilities on their bike.

Anyone ? By anyone you mean YOU. I certainly won't care if someone passes me on an Ebike, i don't care if someone passes me on a non-ebike, I can't for a second imagine why it would matter.

If someone passes me on the way down on one, i'll be unhappy for sure... but only at my own lack of ability.

Don't tar everyone with your brush.

Why would it cheese anyone off?

Anyone ? By anyone you mean YOU. I certainly won't care if someone passes me on an Ebike, i don't care if someone passes me on a non-ebike, I can't for a second imagine why it would matter

Yes of course I mean me. But I think a great deal of riders would agree with me. Did you actually read my post? Have you got anything to say about the video-game-ification of the sport? Or are you just being angry & defensive?

Why would it cheese anyone off?

Because of the hard work they have put in, that e-bikers have largely avoided. I think my post is very clear.

Because of the hard work they have put in, that e-bikers have largely avoided.

But didn't you put the hard work in because you enjoy it?
In which case, whats the problem?
You enjoyed it, they enjoyed it, happy days.

Good thread this, has brought out a REALLY wide spectrum of opinions.

After testing last night, may I suggest Caramel Shortbread as a cheaper alternative to an electric motor? [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/homemade-caramel-shortbread-rocket-fuel ]Caramel Shortbread = Rocket Fuel![/url]

I really hate seeing people ride along canal towpaths. They're just out to enjoy themselves, they've put no hard work in. They should be banned so I don't feel slightly cheesed off.

Oh, wait, actually, no - I love seeing people ride bikes, and how they choose to do it has absolutely zero effect on how I choose to do it.

The point of mountain biking is that it is difficult;

Is it? Not for me. I like mountain biking as it lets me get out into the hills and have lovely views.

I mentioned it allows me to do more miles and therefore have more fun. I explained I had ridden 12 miles to trail centre do about 14 mile route and then the 12 miles home about 38 miles

Asked them.

Turns out they drive to trail centre. Do 9 mile route and then drive home. Which seems pretty
Commonplace now a days

I think you need to give yourself a bit of a break OP. Coming back to cycling after a significant period away, having put on weight, of course you're going to be slower, so what?

People seem to have all sorts of performance anxiety around cycling these days, it's not all a competition. I don't see what's so awful about going for a "Slow ride" and still enjoying simply being out on a bike. If your mates are impatient, go for some rides on your own, or find someone else less concerned about bashing out fast miles to ride with...

getting your fitness back and keeping it has to be a longer term thing and an E-bike isn't a good long term strategy for an otherwise healthy person (IMO).

Fitness will only be built by consistent, regular exercise, an e-bike will just prolong the period it takes to regain fitness, by letting you skip some of the bits of peak effort cycling naturally includes.

Given we're close to winter now as well, motivation for cycling through the darker, colder months is bound to be harder to come by with or without a motor to assist, "training" takes time, it will simply take longer with a motor doing a percentage of the harder work...

If you are looking to get back into cycling and regain some lost fitness for next spring (looking forwards see), I would consider investing in a Road/CX bike that can take mudguards (Cliched I'm sure, not an MTB, but a practical choice), as it's less faff simply getting out and riding from your front door, more efficient to ride so you'll cover more ground for each hour riding and consequently feel a bit more of a sense of achievement. and if you really feel the need to buy additional gadgetry maybe look at a Turbo trainer or rollers so you're still able to do some exercise on days when the weather manages to discourage you from making it out the door...

Set yourself some [u]achievable[/u] fitness/riding goals for ~March 2017, maybe plan to do an event or a specific ride that would be a bit of a challenge with your fitness levels today, ignore your weight, just eat sensibly, and simply focus on finding ways to enjoy/accommodation riding a bike while the weather is crappy, and you'll start next year better prepared and feeling better about yourself because you made the effort through winter...

I love seeing people ride bikes, and how they choose to do it has absolutely zero effect on how I choose to do it.

No, e-bikes don't directly affect me right now. But they might start to if the trend gains too much momentum. They - and you - are contributing to the dumbing-down of a challenging, physically demanding sport.

By extension you think I would be happy for people to break the law? Funnily enough that would cheese me off. A motorbike is completely and utterly different to a motor assisted bicycle and until you've tried one I don't think you'll be able to smarten up enough to grasp that (ironic for someone talking about dumbing down).

Who says this is a sport? Most people do it as a leisure activity. I may do it as a sport, you might too, but most people don't.

So, by extension, you'd be happy to see entirely motorised bikes on trails meant for push bikes yeah? Good for you.

Lol, you know that e bikes are pedal assist (which are legal and not entirely motorised) and e motorbikes are not, (and illiegal) they are just motorbikes that use electricity, rather than petrol, for fuel.

Haha that was quite a turnaround! So being completely motorised is out of the question due to the fact it is illegal, and that would annoy you, but having an engine do 70% of the work while you make a vague pedalling motion is completely fine?
I know what motorbikes are - I ride one regularly. And the fact that you don't see mountain biking as a sport means that you have already lost this argument. Good luck to you. And stay off my trails.

Haha that was quite a turnaround! So being completely motorised is out of the question due to the fact it is illegal, and that would annoy you, but having an engine do 70% of the work while you make a vague pedalling motion is completely fine?

Yes, as there are (tiny) limits to what output the ebike motor can have. Unlike motorbikes.

Sport means competition, dust going out for a ride is not sport.

And stay off my trails.

who the [b]****[/b] are you to determine who does and doesn't ride on [b]public[/b] trails on [b]legal[/b] bicycles?

Unless you're a very rich land owner, with private trails, they are't 'yours'! so much ignorance.

Stay off your trails? Really?

Your 70% of the work figure very clearly shows you haven't ridden one, don't understand how they work and don't know what you are talking about.

A fully electric bike would have to have significantly more power than an e bike to work off road. Power that would damage trails and spoil other people's enjoyment. Someone tootling about on a 250w e bike, doing most of the work, has zero impact on the trail and other people.

And if you could read properly you'll note I do see riding as a sport (and, without wanting to Willy wave too much, have almost certainly worked a lot harder and been on the podium of more races than you). But most people don't. It's mostly a bit of fun, cocking about in the woods, exploring beautiful areas, seeing things you wouldn't normally see, spending time with your friends and generally having a nice time. If you don't see riding like that then you're only cheating yourself.

Although part of me wishes I'd just written what hungrymonkey wrote 😉

The day it becomes competitive, is the day I turn the bike in to bean cans.

who the **** are you to determine who does and doesn't ride on public trails on legal bicycles?

I know this might be hard for you to grasp, but I am speaking figuratively. I am trying to get across the fact that I think e-bikes are not good for the sport (and it is a sport) that I love. They make it easier in a way that is un-earned. Nobody has yet managed to come up with a solid defence of them, [i]when being used by able-bodied riders[/i] - plenty of people pretending to be offended, nobody with any arguments worth a damn.

It's not a f***ng sport!

A fully electric bike would have to have significantly more power than an e bike to work off road.

Clearly you are not very familiar with power outputs.
250W is getting very close to the peak power of a recreational rider, and certainly more than they can sustain for 60mins.

It's not a f***ng sport!

And to quote wikipedia:
[i]Mountain biking is the [b]sport[/b] of riding bicycles off-road, often over rough terrain, using specially designed mountain bikes. Mountain bikes share similarities with other bikes, but incorporate features designed to enhance durability and performance in rough terrain.[/i]

They make it easier in a way that is un-earned

Why does it have to be earned?

Do you save your getting annoyed by an ebike rider overtaking you until after you've asked them if they're able bodied or not?

Franz,

no-one is being offended, no-one is getting arguemntative, apart from you.

There doesn't need to be an argument for why able bodied people use them, they just use them because they want to and they can.

Mountain biking being a sport... well that's a whole other debate. Riding down the Ridgeway for a coffee, is that mountain biking ? It's not a sport. My son is racing XC this weekend (He's 8), however that IS a sport... because it's a competition, it's timed, you have winners...and others...

But Saturday we'll go to Swinley for practice... .that's not a sport... that's a lad and his dad going out to enjoy the forest on bicycles.

And if you could read properly you'll note I do see riding as a sport (and, without wanting to Willy wave too much, have almost certainly worked a lot harder and been on the podium of more races than you). But most people don't. It's mostly a bit of fun, cocking about in the woods, exploring beautiful areas, seeing things you wouldn't normally see, spending time with your friends and generally having a nice time. If you don't see riding like that then you're only cheating yourself

You know literally nothing about me. Please don't presume to tell me how much better you are than me.

Your second point is a good one. Maybe I am taking it all too seriously. But I still think that e-bikes are taking mountain biking in a worrying direction.

I am trying to get across the fact that I think e-bikes are not good for the sport (and it is a sport) that I love. They make it easier in a way that is un-earned. Nobody has yet managed to come up with a solid defence of them, when being used by able-bodied riders - plenty of people pretending to be offended, nobody with any arguments worth a damn.

I'll answer this in a sec. but you don't get my point - why the **** should you give two shits as to what someone chooses to ride on a legally accessible trail, on a bike that legally is allowed to be there. i don't give two hoots about your 'sport' - i give two hoots about people enjoying what they do, without having hand wringers like yourselvef judging them because you don't like it.

now...

They make it easier in a way that is un-earned.

big deal, why does that matter to you, unless you've such a chip on your shoulder about someone passing you somewhere?

Nobody has yet managed to come up with a solid defence of them, when being used by able-bodied riders

Here's a pretty solid 'defence' (although i don't know why they need 'defending') - it's fun.

i ride bikes (many, many bikes, of varying types - road, cx, gravel, xc, trail, enduro, dh, ebikes), because it's fun. i don't really care what you think about what i ride that day. but if i pick an ebike up, i do so because it's fun.

anyone who rides a mountain bike, who isn't paid at the top level to do so, is doing it for fun. if they decide that an ebike is fun, and they enjoy it, why the **** shouldn't they..?

you might have 'ethical' beliefs that they shouldn't be ridden, but they're perfectly legal, so it's a pretty null and void argument in my opinion. when you're ****ing off to some dirty grot in your bedroom, someone somewhere is probably judging you for watching it. but hey, it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, if it's legal.

Without your palmares I can't really judge, but I'm happy to make bets.

What I do know about you is that of all the lovely things that you could say about mountain biking you've decided to post your first thing outside the classifieds to rant about people enjoying themselves. You are taking it too seriously.

Hungry monkey - all your points are valid. I do get that they are fun. But so are normal bikes. And the only thing that makes e-bikes MORE fun than normal bikes is that they are drastically easier to ride, because they have motors.

Sport, leisure activity, a quiet bimble in the woods - whatever you want to call it, whatever your motivation is - if you are only getting back into bikes because an e-bike is X amount easier to ride because of the electrical engine, I just think that is a bit of a shame.

drastically easier to ride

So, clearly, you've not used one.

Hungry monkey - all your points are valid. I do get that they are fun. But so are normal bikes. And the only thing that makes e-bikes MORE fun than normal bikes is that they are drastically easier to ride, because they have motors.

now, i've never said they are 'more' fun - it's a different fun. i'd say that approx 5% of my rides are on ebikes, they're another bike in the mix.

if you are only getting back into bikes because an e-bike is X amount easier to ride because of the electrical engine, I just think that is a bit of a shame.

and what i'm saying is that someone's choice to ride one is nothing to do with you. and if said person is getting back in to riding on an ebike, when they'd not get back in to it on a normal bike, i'd say that's a GOOD thing. also, i'd say that your feelings towards them amount to more than 'it being a shame'.