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I love this idea that 40 is now considered too old to get fit without assistance
This is my issue as I approach 39 with a bit of excess body mass, it sort of has me confused, you know you're unfit so you've opted to buy a device which simply offsets the need for fitness rather than ride a "Clockwork bike" and do more exercise, but still feel the need to justify it, normally by telling everyone that you are still a bit tired at the top of the climbs...
Since having kids I’m not fit enough for a full day out in the hills. I’m goosed after an hour or two.
I can’t imagine wanting one at a trail centre (could be wrong) but an e-bike would get me back on favourite 5 hour loops around the Lake District without a fear of a coronary…
Weak... That "Dad Bod" can be shifted, but not by having a motor do half the graft on harder efforts. Lot's of people manage to recover their fitness through riding and being active, and lets be fair for you the physical trauma was pretty much having your hand squeezed and then eating a bit too much cake for the next couple of years, you're not the one who had to shit out another human being...
By setting an artificial cap on your riding you basically accept you're going to be a biffer forever more...
Do E-dandy-horses even have the range to go for 5+ hours? I remember seeing a bunch of E-bikerist a few months back at the top of the Swinley clubhouse trails, all swapping to fresh battery packs from their rucksacks, that's what ~6 miles from the car park if they've followed the red & blue arrows? maybe they'd Turbo'd their way there but it's hardly impressive range is it... How long do the things actually last in "Eco" mode?
The other thing I wonder about is the cost difference between an E-bike and a normal bike, it's got to be ~£1-£1.5K going to Bosch right? so for the price of a £5k E-sled you could have a very respectable £3.5K Enduro bike, and plenty spare for a nice commuter to actually get fitter riding to work regularly...
If i could afford one id be seriously tempted, mainly for an alps bike. Now i have the choice of taking my big bike and doing uplift or 30-40 mile natural rides or taking the xc bike and doing double the distance but having to be a lot more careful descending. 150mm e-bike? Best of both worlds, natural trails with noone on them and the climbs are a doddle.
You see, part of the reason I like cycling in general and MTB in particular is you can't just go "oh **** it, strap a bigger engine on and it'll do everything pretty well". Getting a bike that's just right for a loop is kind of nice - I was all about n+1 until I realised I needed One Bike To Rule Them All (and another few for specific tasks) so that I could take the one out where mile munching and good descending are both priorities!
Of course you must be using very little assistance to be doing 60-80mile loops on an e-bike... But I can see that'd take you from XC machine to bigger bike levels of power requirement to be at a "comfortable" pace.
I've not seen an e-bike in the wild, but then I don't see many bikes out on the trails. I can imagine an e-bike would be a huge hinderance on some of the climbs I've done recently (which involve copious amounts of carrying) and would be limited if you were doing really big rides. As it'd also cost me more than I reckon I'll ever spend on uplifts, and I'm not a manual worker, I don't think it's for me.
What about children’s ebikes?
Legal minimum age to ride them is 14, so no point manufacturers making them.
What about children’s ebikes?
Legal minimum age to ride them is 14, so no point manufacturers making them.
Damn shame. They already have far too much homework etc, why should the poor things be made to pedal around or up hills as well?
How long do the things actually last in “Eco” mode?
I took my Ebike but rode it switched off for 95% of the ride. We climbed 3000ft. The Ebike weighed 49lb
Would seem potentially to infinity and beyond 😂
How long do the things actually last in “Eco” mode?
Mine easily does 30 miles in turbo mode. Eco mode uses 30% power (and is adjustable down to 10%), so plenty for a good day out
Climbing is the rubbish part of any ride.
@geex – you’re weird!
There’s the dividing line.
Some people like climbing on bikes, some people like descending.
The haters seem to be the climbers, the lovers the descenders.
If I never had to ride a bike uphill again, I’d be happy, might as well be on an exercise bike.
I do other stuff to stay in shape.
It seems that some want to separate out the physical conditioning elements of riding a bike, so choose an ebike. Surely that detracts ffrom a significant part of riding a bike. Especially a road bike where it's 99% about the effort of pedalling.
I appreciate some just like being "out and about" with no effort, but I don't understand the aversion to putting in effort and building fitness.
Surely the health benefits are a pretty large part of the appeal?
I don't think I'm part of the target market. My bikes are always oritented to the descent, and are generally 34lbs as a result, but I like pedalling them up.
I suspect @geex will be getting a mobility scooter next as he can go just as far as he can walking, but he's less tired and enjoys it more as a result.
Obviously there are going to people for whom an ebike offers a great solution. However if youre choosing one because you can't be arsed to pedal it says something pretty fundamental about you.
Some people like climbing on bikes, some people like descending
I like both in pretty much equal measure, does that explain why I'm not fussed who wants to ride ebikes or not? 🙄
The haters seem to be the climbers,
See my earlier post for why, in my case, you are wrong.
There are other reasons for being wary of e-bikes but being jealous of being beaten by a motor isn't one of them.
There are other reasons for being wary of e-bikes but being jealous of being beaten by a motor isn’t one of them.
It’s more about how you get your kicks really.
Some people love the challenge of the climb and the feeling of satisfaction from it, I get that.
For me it’s all about the descending, and to be fair I get a good whole body workout from that.
I think for me MTBing is about the challenge full stop - whether that's to get you and your bike to the top of the hill at all, to do it quicker than last time, to do it without dabbing, to ride the descent, to ride it faster, to take a particular line, or just to get somewhere in one piece and enjoy being outdoors. And you select the components with a trade-off between speed and reliability.
And that's before you get to racing.
I don't have anything against eMTBs or those that ride them, it's just to me it wouldn't be the activity that I want to take part in - for now at least. I'm certainly not one to enjoy the climbs more than the descents, just to me it's a package, you earn the descents, you get a bit of fresh air and exercise, and hopefully you come back the next week a bit stronger and fitter than last week.
I think for me MTBing is about the challenge full stop – whether that’s to get you and your bike to the top of the hill at all, to do it quicker than last time, to do it without dabbing, to ride the descent, to ride it faster, to take a particular line, or just to get somewhere in one piece and enjoy being outdoors.
None of that changes with e-bikes.
Weak… That “Dad Bod” can be shifted, but not by having a motor do half the graft on harder efforts.
Yeah not sure you quite understand. You still pedal as hard as you otherwise would. You just go faster and/or further.
It’s more about how you get your kicks really.
Some people love the challenge of the climb and the feeling of satisfaction from it, I get that.
For me it’s all about the descending, and to be fair I get a good whole body workout from that.
I'm probably somewhere in the same place as this. Having never identified as a "cyclist" (almost 30 years as a mountain biker though), I've never felt any affinity with that "glory of suffering" type narrative that the roadies seem to identify with. Not saying it's wrong, I just don't get it.
I'll happily winch up a fireroad at a steady pace to get to a great descent fresh. I'd pick the fireroad over the technical climb to preserve energy to go full on at the descent too. Just as with the roadie mindset thing, I also never got the old skool early MTB mindset of "no dabs" and all that on tech climbs. If it's more energy efficient and faster to push up, then push up.
For me, the "fitness" aspect of riding is the secondary benefit, I ride for the buzz, but at the same time, work on getting fitter to get more buzz by going faster.
I imagine this mindset is why I struggle the reluctance from some "purists" (for want of a better word) to accept e-MTBs as just another type of mountain biking. After all, our sport was kicked off by weed smoking hippies racing down a hill, hardly bastions of "strength through suffering", "honour through pain" or any of those kind of things!
Yeah not sure you quite understand. You still pedal as hard as you otherwise would. You just go faster and/or further.
LOL. All the e-gear, no idea.
Have you checked out too, molgrips? Or yet to take that irreversible step.
^ you sound a lot like me..
i'll punish myself with a climb to a point, but not at the cost of ruining the rest of a ride or affecting me the following day and will rest / push up once i've hit that point. i know my limit. none of that 40% bullshit (if you know what i'm talking about) I know when i'm done. i;ve got some climbs i've only made clean (no dabs! lol) a few times.
i'm also in my early 40s, and a bit portly. i'm time poor now (littleun) but i would still never stoop to regularly riding an e-bike. thats giving up - but i do partly ride for fitness, even if i hate the climbs i feel like i;m paying dues creeping up them.
so i get a balance of "zones" when riding, and stay out of the red as its not good to overdo that
i ride with a bunch of guys with much more experience than me, they also have 10 years age on me. i hope i'm as fit in my early 50s. its not your age, its because you give up too easily. it took me a few years to get my bike fitness up, and its still not like theirs. mines dipping, but i;m not doing too bad. all this 40+ or even 50+ stuff is nonsense get fit.
i had a chat/ witha guy on an e-bike a while ago.and had a quick go - they're rare on the quantocks. e bikes let people stay in the lower zones, benefits are like riding say a road bike more than mtb as the balance of zones the rider is in are more consistent. nice to get rid of those hills sure.. and can you measure fun? not so sure.. its a shame that if they switch they may end up just like how i've seen roadies who regularly do big miles die on their arses when confronted with a hill and wonder why we think 20mile rides are 'big'.. it;s all about that elevation too!
Yeah not sure you quite understand. You still pedal as hard as you otherwise would. You just go faster and/or further.
Agree here! Did a MASSIVE ride in the Pentlands with a few guys on a Wilier e-MTB demo. It was a huge day out that a: probably couldn't have been done in a day (we were all good standard of MTB riders with multiple EWS/UKGE/Superenduro rounds experience so not "fat biffers" as some on here might like to think) on normal bikes and b: even if we could, it would have been a bit sh*t due to the stupid amount of climbing involved to get to some really good descents.
We got a huge ride in, had some wicked laughs and lots of big, fast descents - and were all knackered by the end. So not an "easy option", just a different way of doing things.
But as always, it boils down to the question to the "anti" crowd - have you actually tried one?
None of that changes with e-bikes.
Er... I reckon it does. Quite obviously having a motor on your bike is going to make it different, particularly uphill.
If it’s more energy efficient and faster to push up, then push up.
As somebody who still runs 2x, I can assure you it's never more energy efficient or faster, as long as you can keep going - if you're constantly dabbing and getting off and on that's when you might as well push up. If you can keep it rolling, you'll steadily put a gap on pushers - I guess that's why a lot of people like to ride bikes up hills rather than just push them to the top, and like the challenge of getting better at this (which is pointless, but then so is the entire exercise).
To be clear, it's not logical, if I wanted to get up a trail faster (but still legally) I'd take an ebike. But I want to do it as fast as *I* can, or as fast as I feel like on that day.
Yeah not sure you quite understand. You still pedal as hard as you otherwise would. You just go faster and/or further.
Yeah, I keep hearing this claim from the E-bikerists but in my mind it still reads as:
"I'm not as fit as I once was, but I still want to cover 40 miles inside of a couple of hours, I can only really muster the effort to pedal 20 miles, so the E-bike can just bridge the gap between ambition and capability, and thus I don't need to get fitter..."
Citing a lack of fitness and/or time seems odd, if your fitness is an issue surely it's worth making the extra time/effort to ride further and/or for longer on an "Analogue" bike to try and regain some of it...
Not everyone seems to use this justification TBH, those that simply state "Because it's a new Toy and a bit of Fun" seem a whole lot more honest about their motivation, I'm not sure why people need to keep kidding themselves that an E-bike will make an overweight, but otherwise healthy individual any fitter...
If you can keep it rolling, you’ll steadily put a gap on pushers
Pushers of equal power output as onesself - perhaps. Pushers in general no, I can pedal (on smoothish stuff) appreciably slower than a brisk walking pace, and am frequently out-climbed by younger, more powerful cyclists who choose to push when I choose to pedal. If I chose to push, I would probably be a tad slower than if I pedalled.
I also never got the old skool early MTB mindset of “no dabs” and all that on tech climbs. If it’s more energy efficient and faster to push up, then push up.
It's not old skool. It's just different from what you like. MTB isn't about efficiency. If you want efficient then just cycle round the car park. It's about a challenge and pushing yourself and being as good as you can. If it's steep an gnadgery then of course it's easier to push up, but that defeats the purpose of going for a bike ride (apart from those who just enjoy the downs, I get that (or at least I'm trying to get it :-)))
PJ:
I can assure you it’s never more energy efficient or faster, as long as you can keep going – if you’re constantly dabbing and getting off and on that’s when you might as well push up. If you can keep it rolling, you’ll steadily put a gap on pushers
No chance. Just not true. You can push/carry a bike up something properly difficult easier and more quickly than cycling it.
those that simply state “Because it’s a new Toy and a bit of Fun” seem a whole lot more honest about their motivation,
Yep totally. e-bikes are clearly a load of fun and make stuff easier. That's great. But some of the justifications people come out with are just odd.
Citing a lack of fitness and/or time seems odd, if your fitness is an issue surely it’s worth making the extra time/effort to ride further and/or for longer on an “Analogue” bike to try and regain some of it…
But here's the issue - lots of people are time poor. The demographic of mountain biking is getting older, the sport is getting more expensive. So the guys/girls who can afford it typically have more "involved" jobs to pay for their hobbies, and because of their life stage (family, mortgage, all that stuff) have other commitments that mean they can't go out for loads of time, or indeed maybe don't want to as they want to spend time with their wives/husbands/kids/whatever. The e-bike allows them to get in more of the enjoyable stuff (i.e. the "hobby" after all a hobby should be fun) with less of the shit stuff, and condense it into a manageable thing both in terms of physical output and time.
There’s the dividing line.
Some people like climbing on bikes, some people like descending.
The haters seem to be the climbers, the lovers the descenders.
I like both. The descent is payback for the climb, the down is what keeps me motivated whilst going uphill. I'd feel I was cheating myself if I didn't have to work so hard for that reward. I understand it's different strokes for different folks but that's my mindset.
Yeah not sure you quite understand. You still pedal as hard as you otherwise would. You just go faster and/or further.
You COULD still pedal as hard as yo otherwise would. However, in reality most people probably don't. I haven't encountered many e-MTBs but I was chasing one up a 3 mile fire road (mostly uphill) hill a few weeks back going at around 15mph. I was going as hard as I could while he was just leisurely turning the pedals. I doubt he was the exception.
@whitestone & @ganic I've been riding mountainbikes for 30 years (and roadbikes a lot longer). In that 30yrs alone I must have climbed over 1000000m.
Almost every meter of climbing was to get to ride something faster and more fun than the climb.
I tend to hit my max HRs on descents rather than climbs whatever mtb I'm riding. ie. I do actually put effort in. but prefer to save max efforts for the parts I find fun.
But... Go on then. Tell us all. How often do you two actually ride your bikes? What sort of riding and how much climbing do you do to feel so superior about the "effort" you put in??
@Cookea. I've only ever done one 5hr ride on my Ebike. I rode XC to a local(ish) DH spot, did DH runs for a few hours and rode back the long way via the coast road. I did it on one battery. A lot of that route is fairly flat so you're pedalling above the 15mph assistance cut off and not using any battery. I still just use a normal mtb or roadbike for longer rides. I hardly carry anything on rides and certainly wouldn't ever want to carry another battery. I've also done Emtb rides where I've used the bike to shuttle DH tracks and completely drained the battery in 1hr 10mins doing about 4500ft of climbing at full chat in BOOST the whole way.
Yesterday's ride was around two and a half hours actual riding/moving time. At the end I had over 80% battery left (I don't know the exact figure, just going by the lights still on on the battery and how quickly it took to top up again last night).
Tonight I'll be riding my roadbike.
Me and my riding buddy both live by the "no dabs" rule. Whoever dabs least wins. Its lightly competitive and fun, even more so that who gets down the hill fastest. If we switched to ebikes all that would be lost forever 🙁
All the hardest climbs I know I've done no dabs. But once I've done it once I no longer GAF and would happily push nevermind boost up it battery powered.
@kerley - I rarely ever put in anywhere near the physical effort into climbing on my Emtb I would on my normal bikes. If I did it would have been a total waste of money buying a bike with a motor. I'm fairly certain most other emtb riders won't either.
Ok I should rephrase. You still CAN pedal as hard as you want. I see people pedalling gently and not out of breath on normal bikes. They just aren't going very fast.
To be fair Molly it depends on which assist mode you choose and the gradient. it's actually impossible to put in a lot of effort in boost under around a 10% gradient unless you pedal past the 15mph limit and the motor decouples. In Eco. Yes. you could probably pedal at your threshold just under the 15mph limit. But Why would you? 😉
But here’s the issue – lots of people are time poor.
I can totally accept this. But what if these people worked a little less and spent more time and less money on their bikes? I'd wager they'd have more fun, even if they didn't ride as many miles.
The estimated £1500 premium (admittedly this will be falling) plus increased running costs will go reasonably far to reduce time spent at work for most people. Spend that time biking and would you really even get less fun?
increased running costs?
er... What increased running costs?
I wish I had the luxury of a job that would allow me to say "I know there's shit loads of work to do to deliver all these projects on time and on budget without killing anyone but personally I've made enough loot today so I'm off to ride my bike, see-ya!"
Hi @geex i dont have firm figures for the last 30 years, but in 2018 so far its just over 60,000 meters, which is fairly typical of the last 5 years. (i took little pleasure from the meters gained commuting, but they def help with the fitness). Do i win anything other than your admiration and applause?
@geex - I ride a bike most days. During the week it's commuting, at this time of year it's easy on the way in then vary things on the way home. The last five years I've averaged 10,000km distance and about 140,000 metres of climbing per annum. A little down on that this year as Feb and March I'd a sprained back then sciatica. Before that my main sport was climbing (rock, winter, mountaineering) hence only the last five years. About a third each road, commuting, MTB, this year MTB is probably closer to 50%.
I can, and do, approach a climb in several ways: I may choose to climb it as fast as possible; climb with no dabs; steady away; as energy efficiently as possible; pootle. I cleaned a climb yesterday for example for the first time, next time I do the climb I'll try to clean it but it's no great shakes if I don't. Might need to lose a few kg if I want to do it quicker.
I've been overtaken, on and off road, by riders on e-bikes. Not a problem, I'm being passed by a motorised vehicle. It might be a problem when e-bikes become so numerous that there's a clamour to tax and license them and have mandatory insurance. The next step would be tax, licensing and insurance for all bikes.
In a few years if my health declines I might be on one myself until then I've a perfectly functional set of legs and lungs thank you.
Edit: edited because this chuffin' editor can't handle editing commands. 🙄
I wish I had the luxury of a job that would allow me to say “I know there’s shit loads of work to do to deliver all these projects on time and on budget without killing anyone but personally I’ve made enough loot today so I’m off to ride my bike, see-ya!”
You need to change jobs. Nobody looks back at their life and wishes they had spent more time working for a company.
You don't measure manuals by ascent @sirromj
You measure them in tictacs, then paces, then while lines, then lampposts, then roads junction to junction.
@whitestone. Sounds like you're physically in good shape and enjoy climbing (on bikes, on foot and on foot carrying a bike). I get that and am fine with it. But why the need to be a fitness/excercise snob about it?
live and let live mate.
If I could find something easier that paid a similar amount that would be great. 3 kids and a South East sized mortgage takes up vastly more of my income than bikes
I'm not a snob, I'm honest. If you view that as snobbishness/whatevery then that's not my problem.
Let me repeat (just in case you've forgotten from my previous posts), I've no problem with e-bikes.
"@chief you’re over thinking it. Even if you are weak. You’ll strengthen up from riding one."
For all my faults as a MTBer, one thing I'm definitely not is weak! 😉 I will succumb to an e-bike when funds/space allows. But I do think they'll be at their worst on these trails, where the tightness and lack of gradient means you don't reap the benefit to the same degree. Now if I lived somewhere with big hills I'd have had one a year ago!
Plenty around Grizedale, also get some at other Trail Centres, but elsewhere they are hardly ever seen.
Buying Price and maintenance puts me off getting one.
£5K plus. I can afford it but don't want the endless maintenance bills.
Too heavy, if you have to lift over Gates or hike a bike your in more trouble than normal.
Much more maintenance-intense than a normal MTB, and they're bad enough.
You also can't wash an EMTB with the hosepipe it will damage the motor and electronics. Cleaning is even more a "pain in the arse", bucket and sponge job every time.
You can't take an E-Bike abroad on the plane.
I think you get a lot muddier on an Ebike than a normal MTB if your riding in bad conditions. When I demo'd an Ebike I got covered in substantially more mud than usual. Though I am not sure if its due to the amount of power they put down, or if it was just the wider tyres that it had and lack of mud guards!
Apart from all these drawbacks, they seem like great fun, if only for the speed they go uphill and on the flat! Downhill there is hardly any difference though
One thing about eBike i've noticed is that currently they break, a LOT!
(well a lot more than normal bikes)
In our group, where we rode normal AM bikes, all medium to high end, good quality and well looked after, it was rare for anything to break.. Sure, the odd chain perhaps, and a few worn out bearings and bottom brakets, but for the lst 5 years i can't really think of a failure (crash damage excepted)
But now, with eBike, jeez, they seem to spend more time in for warranty replacement than ever! one bikes had 3 (actually i think it might be four now!) motors, two have cracked frames (chain stays) and we'd done i think 4 or 5 chains in this year alone! I guess they are heavier and they are probably doing more miles than we used to but so far, i'd say reliability is, generally poor, expecially early this year in all the wet weather we had.
I'm sure the durability will improve with every new model, but right now, i'd say eBikes are not as durable as normal ones ime.
this... Citing a lack of fitness and/or time seems odd, if your fitness is an issue surely it’s worth making the extra time/effort to ride further and/or for longer on an “Analogue”bike to try and regain some of it…
...totally misses the point of my post and circumstances.
I used to spend about 7 hours a week riding, mostly on the road. Now I spend that 7 hours riding with my kids, playing football with them and swimming.
I don’t have more time I could find at this stage of my life between my kids, wife’s career and my own business.
Really struggle to understand why anybody cares whether I’m fit enough to do a sub 5 hour century or not, and whether I’m riding an ebike or a regular bike out on the trails. Odd.