I need a bit of a sanity check... Wife's after a new bike and everyone is recommending a drop bar gravel bike. Now considering she's not happy going more than about 25-30kph I'm less convinced it's the right idea, she'll get minimal if any gains from the drops & the narrower bar / longer stem combo along with the slightly steeper head tube all mean the bike will feel less stable at higher speeds. Considering traditional wisdom is to have bars aboit as wide as your shoulders, would you think going wider would make sense? My thinking is if you're only ever going to use the hoods then you want to maximize control in that position & more control equals more confidence, more confidence equals more speed.
I've tried talking her round to a flat bar option but apparently the advice from lots of people she's never ridden with is more valuable than that of one person she has. I have however convinced her to try some drop bar bikes first.
I guess it depends on the riding your wife will be doing and how confident she is on a bike offroad.
Very light gravel with large sections of road linking up the rides then flared gravel bars are fine. My missus is new to riding in general and she now prefers the drop bar gravel bike over my hardtail for easy gravel rides. She is quite small, but still has a 42cm bar (Zipp Explorer with an 11 degree outsweep - just had to check the website details). But to be honest, she never uses the drops and stays on the hoods.
I talked my missus into getting the gravel bike when I got mine. Our hardtails are both Orange Crush with 150mm folks and 650b wheels, so it felt right to get a gravel bike….looking back we should have gone lightweight XC hardtail.
Will it be ridden off-road? if it's only going to be ridden on the road I would go for drop bars, if it's going to be ridden off-road then I personally think that flat bars would definitely give her more confidence that's certainly my partners experience, I wouldn't go for wide drop bars as they can cause lots of comfort issues, getting a bike fit would be the best thing to do before buying anything.
It'll be a mix of on and off but nothing more off than a trail centre blue.
A bike fit is on the list but she needs to choose between flats and drops first.
People keep mentioning flared bars but if you go nowhere near the drops then it's kinda pointless.
I think a lightweight rigid / hardtail xc kind of thing would be far more confidence inspiring.
Very wide drops feel a little weird to begin with, because your arms are extended laterally from your shoulders, as opposed to, say, just being held out straight ahead. If you're new to drops, I reckon any Ritchey XL style bar would feel worse than just a set of 420mm bars.
And remember, the leverage on the bars is more than it looks because you have a long stem, and the hoods/drops add to reach.
Anyhow, I am glad she's trying them. If she doesn't like drops, wider drops won't change anything. (I, personally, love drop bars for exactly the sort of riding they're good for - road, long mixed terrain days, gravel, Actual UK Bridleway Gravel/Muck). But I cannot think of any trail center blue I'd want to ride on a gravel bike.)
People keep mentioning flared bars but if you go nowhere near the drops then it’s kinda pointless
+1. The only point of the flare is for the drops, otherwise it's just a weird-angled hood.
Considering traditional wisdom is to have bars aboit as wide as your shoulders, would you think going wider would make sense? My thinking is if you’re only ever going to use the hoods then you want to maximize control in that position & more control equals more confidence, more confidence equals more speed.
The trouble with running wide drop bars, potentially, is that on the hoods, you're forced to cock your wrists, which in turn twists your shoulders and causes neck pain. People get quite het up on the idea that drop-bars give poor control, but actually, particularly on the drops, you're very stably wedged in. I think the bottom line is that it takes a little time to get used to drops, but they actually work pretty well on mixed surfaces and give you more potential hand positions.
My take is that 'controllability' of the bike has more to do with geometry than bars. My old On One cross bike always felt slightly necky on rough stuff, my Camino is reassuringly stable. The main difference is one has longer reach and a slacker head angle along with slightly wider tyres.
The missus rides mountain bikes and road bikes and is quite happy riding drops off road as well. I think it helps to have ridden with the drops on the road and to have some experience of mountain bikes moving around off road as well. Anyway, I think you're right in that a test ride or two is a good idea. Alpkit does demo bikes from Hathersage, so snagging a go on a Camino would be straightforward. That said, personally I'd rather use a mildly flared compact drop bar than Sonder's own more rad' variant, but it's all personal preference really.
I'd try and start with an open mind, demo a few bikes and see where it goes. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer, plenty of people get on just fine with gravel bikes and drop bars. I didn't think I ever would. fwiw I was a proper cross bike and drop bar sceptic until I started riding one. But there's no 'right' answer ime and telling people what does and doesn't work for them often ends badly.
mean the bike will feel less stable at higher speeds
All my road bikes are rock steady at speed.
I can however comfortably reach every part of the bar without stretching/trying to dislocate my shoulders and spine.
Alpkit are our current preference being local, offering test rides and a choice of components at no / minimal extra charge, plus they are on of the few that do a bike small enough.
If you widen the width you will change her position on the bike, extending reach and altering how wrists are on the bike. In my experience of a (petite) wife, mm can make all the difference to ride comfort. In my experience as well, wider bars can cause as many issues as they solve when it comes to confidence. We tried three different bar shapes and widths, to little gain.
In my experience, confidence (or lack of) on drop bars was far more about crappy brakes, small hands not being able to reach levers in drops or exert enough force from hoods, poor tyres and a perception of skinny and smoother tyres not gripping, harsh frame etc. I found that grabby new brake pads, better tyres (As wide as could fit) and better shock absorbing grips or tape made much more headway in lending confidence.
And then we swapped to flat bar with bar ends and it was transformational compared to drops.
People keep mentioning flared bars but if you go nowhere near the drops then it’s kinda pointless
+2. After decades on commuters/hybrids/gravel bikes (before they were called gravel bikes) with flat bars and barends, I've moved to wide flared drops. If I didn't ride in the drops 95% of the time then flat bars with barends might make more sense.
I'm a non-roadie. Wide-ish shoulders and using a Ritchey Beacon XL: 52cm across the hoods, 67cm at the drops, 36deg drop flare and 6deg outward, very shallow drop and short reach.
Edit: and echo Matt's comments about flat bars and barends!
Surely the answer is entirely dependent on the riding that she is doing? If she is lacking confidence at speed, then a drop bar gravel bike on loose flat corners is really not going to be much fun for her! Fine if it's road and tow paths, but anything more adventurous and I would have said flat bar mtb.
Size is also a consideration. If she is on the shorter side then finding a suitably small gravel bike might be difficult. Plus widening the bars just makes the reach longer. Wide hoods on a long bike is not a recipe for comfort if you're a casual cyclist.
Oh, and to add, so many people waxed lyrical about drop bar do it all / gravel / touring bikes.
None had my wife's petite hands and height. Most were focussed on speed over comfort and fun. Most from road background. All seemed to trot it out without much thought, sales persons included, and certainly really deep within the cycle club.
We had borrowed an XS drop bar CX bike from club pal for her to try and it was awful. Said club pal was almost affronted that we did not get on. Said club pal then tried out mrs_oab's new flat bar gravel / do it all bike. Pal has gone on to buy a flat bar bike herself....
I've just got my first 'gravel bike' in the form of a converted hybrid and have tried standard road bars and some cheap lightly flared gravel bars on it. The flared drops were a revolution.
With the road bars on it was fine on light tracks but felt like a road bike off road. With the gravel bars and no other adjustments I was happy taking it down the reds on Cannock Chase and was overtaking people on the blues.
That said, I am a man, therefore an idiot, if your wife isn't an idiot a normal hardtail would probably be the sensible option, unless she's already a roadie.
Now considering she’s not happy going more than about 25-30kph I’m less convinced it’s the right idea, she’ll get minimal if any gains from the drops & the narrower bar / longer stem combo along with the slightly steeper head tube all mean the bike will feel less stable at higher speeds.
If she's not going above 30kph then is the concern about stability at higher speeds point moot?
A test ride is the thing to do. Gravel bikes can feel solid stable on road ime. Sketchy off-road yes but that doesn't stop them being far more popular than an XC HT these days for 50/50 use. I think it's partly fashion/culture and partly the perception of a drop bar bike being more efficient, lighter etc - no-one wants a heavy slow bike so gravel bikes score on the perceived advantage.
if you’re only ever going to use the hoods then you want to maximize control in that position
You do but I'm not sure wider is better. Wide hoods positions feel rubbish all-round to me. Road 42-44 / gravel 44-46 suits me well. Flare drop bars are good for mixed terrain riding but again, it's a drop bar not an MTB bar and bar spec is just a fine tune, I don't think it's a fix if the general bike format doesn't feel ok to the rider. The vast majority of riders I see on drop bar bikes are riding normal sized bars on the hoods, they seem happy enough.
Some interesting points on wider bars not necessarily being comfortable that id not considered. Thanks for those.
None had my wife’s petite hands and height. Most were focussed on speed over comfort and fun. Most from road background. All seemed to trot it out without much thought, sales persons included, and certainly really deep within the cycle club.
That's basically the exact same thing we're having.
If she’s not going above 30kph then is the concern about stability at higher speeds point moot?
Yes and no, I think if she was more stable / confident then her speed would increase.
The main advantage of drop bars is aeroness. If you're not bothered about aeroness then you don't need drop bars and flat bars give greater control on the bits where it's needed.
Now, someone will say "drop bars are better as they give a variety of hand positions, which allow me to ride for hours in blissful comfort". The thing is, there's enough "here's how you cure hand/wrist pain on your drop bars" videos on YouTube to suggest that many, many, people struggle to set up their drop bars comfortably. And maybe they want to have multiple hand positions as none of them are that comfortable...
Flat bars are much simpler to set up to be comfortable, and if they're comfortable in the one main position, there's little/less need for multiple positions. And it's not like your hands are glued in place, you can still move them around, or even fit (shock!) bar ends or ergon type grips for a bit of variety of it's wanted/needed.
TL:DR - most people, who are just after a bike for riding around on, would be better off with flat bars.
Trail centre blue for a small rider with not much experience I'd be looking at flat bars. I'd also give some thought to toe overlap as well. Less likely to be a problem on something mountain bike derived than something road derived.
"But I cannot think of any trail center blue I’d want to ride on a gravel bike"
Minotaur at CyB is great on a gravel bike. I've ridden it on my Fugio a few times. Way more suited to the trail than the long travel e-bikes I've seen on it IMHO.
With drop bars it kinda depends on the drop doesn't it.
Like if its low you will probably end up favouring the hoods. But if its high and flared you can ride about on the drops in the main.
Then you have an additional very upright position.
I have tiny hands (short stubby fingers the palms are normal sized) and find drops quite reassuring in the "hooked in" sense if its a bit bumpy i cannot secure myself properly on the hoods.
You do but I’m not sure wider is better. Wide hoods positions feel rubbish all-round to me. Road 42-44 / gravel 44-46 suits me well. Flare drop bars are good for mixed terrain riding but again, it’s a drop bar not an MTB bar and bar spec is just a fine tune, I don’t think it’s a fix if the general bike format doesn’t feel ok to the rider. The vast majority of riders I see on drop bar bikes are riding normal sized bars on the hoods, they seem happy enough.
+1
I've got some Richey flared drops which are borderline too wide (and I think they're only a nominal 44 at the hoods. While I've got used to them over time (because they weren't cheap) they're not at good as a fairly generic 44 a lot of the time.
My "racing" bike has 42cm bars and feels ace all round.
My Commuter /gravel / CX fixie has 44's which suit it, slightly less tucked in but still efficient.
Gravel / CX with flared drops. The drops are supremely comfortable when just spinning along flat fire road, the better shape spreads the pressure out and means you hands don't get beaten up by the vibration. But you get zero 'tuck' on the road, the hand position only works with straight-ish arms. Buying them again I'd have gone for 42's so I wouldn't feel like such a parachute on long road sections. They probably excel on routes like the Continental Divide where they are used with aero bars for the road sections. That way you've got a great option for all terrains. For a 50/50 bike with just drop bars I'd probably rather a more conventional drop with maybe a slight flare for the road and just use the hoods for technical sections.
Other than looking ridiculous in the Radavist, I've no idea who Beacon XL's are for. The position just reminds me of trying to paddle a surf board that's too big.
Other than looking ridiculous in the Radavist, I’ve no idea who Beacon XL’s are for.
Work for me... *shrug shoulders emoji*
I’m a non-roadie. Wide-ish shoulders and using a Ritchey Beacon XL: 52cm across the hoods, 67cm at the drops, 36deg drop flare and 6deg outward, very shallow drop and short reach.
They probably excel on routes like the Continental Divide
I think is part of the issue - much of the marketing and image of gravel stuff relies on things like the Continental Divide*, but most people aren't riding the Continental Divide, they're riding down a canal towpath and small lanes to a cafe, before returning via the cycle routes on the converted old railway line.
(*see also things like TdF in road cycling and Rampage in mountain biking - the marketing, image and received wisdom is massively biased towards a type of riding that the bike buying punter will never do)
Singletrack ate my post
In summary longer stems increase directionally stability
longer stems weight the front wheel cornering without any rider input
longer stems are less good down steep hills
In summary longer stems increase directionally stability
longer stems weight the front wheel cornering without any rider input
longer stems are less good down steep hills
And alter position on the bike - leading to someone potentially feeling like they are being 'pulled forward' on a bike, even more so when they try to move backwards or stand up, leading to a feeling of being 'over the front'...
Yes and no, I think if she was more stable / confident then her speed would increase.
I see, worth a try and test of a few things.
I agree that most 'just riding around' bikes would be better for intended use if they didn't have drops but I also don't think flat bars are a good answer. The best option ime is a Jones H or loop bar shape or a similar 35-45 degree sweep alt bar as they can give you fore-aft grip range without the rarely well used drop section and an ideal arm/wrist angle, but they look odd so they tend to get ignored. For an all-rounder bike I think I'd go for flare drops over flat bars, riding longer gravel or road sections on an average flat bar isn't comfortable for me. Bar ends do help but ime an H bar does that whole thing better (Greadt Divide route, gravel routes like KAW, towpaths and old school XC, mixed terrain touring - the lot). YMMV etc.
But I cannot think of any trail center blue I’d want to ride on a gravel bike
Most of glentress old blues is quite good fun. The new ones would be a right laugh.
When I first got a road bike for some reason I was convinced that wider drops were betterer (was that a Lance thing in the early 00s?) anyway I've only recently realised that 440mm drop bars have been contributing to shoulder/neck aches on Road and Gravel rides over ~60 odd miles.
So I'm giving slightly flared drops a go, 400mm tops, ~450mm at the drops (also probably going to go ~10mm longer on reach at the same time).
It's worth remembering it's not necessarily (or just) bar width that gives you control on curly bared bikes, it's distance from (and therefore mechanical advantage over) the steering axis, hoods move your hands a fair distance forward remember, which also helps with control/stability to some extent. Down in the drops your hands come backwards, now closer to the steering axis, so a bit of flair makes sense then (discuss)...
Basically it's all about the flair these days...
TBH I think there's lots of "received wisdom" on curly bared bike fit and contact point setup, which seems to periodically get re-evaluated and then changes, but the memo filters through to everyone else out there struggling on with less than optimally setup bikes quite slowly...
None had my wife’s petite hands and height.
I think this is 90% of the problem, there's only so small you can get with a drop bar set up/STi shifters/700c (or 650) wheels and a conventionally set up frame before the handling and comfort goes to shit. Too short stem, too wide bars, still leaves you with too long a reach which then gets you pushing the saddle /seat tube angle forward (or doing both!) which really messes with weight distribution and comfort. So flat bars work less badly in that situation.
Most were focussed on speed over comfort and fun.
Shops or manufacturers? Modern comfort geo/gravel bikes are a massive departure from road bikes of yore, but many shops/riders still try to slam that stem and get a 130mm stem on (i exaggerate, but many still do!).
Most from road background. All seemed to trot it out without much thought, sales persons included, and certainly really deep within the cycle club.
As expected 😉
And alter position on the bike – leading to someone potentially feeling like they are being ‘pulled forward’ on a bike, even more so when they try to move backwards or stand up, leading to a feeling of being ‘over the front’…
That's a badly fitted bike, or too large/long in the first place.
TBH I think there’s lots of “received wisdom” on curly bared bike fit and contact point setup, which seems to periodically get re-evaluated and then changes, but the memo filters through to everyone else out there struggling on with less than optimally setup bikes quite slowly…
Some people still trot out KOPS as gospel, despite it being 20+ years out of date. Ditto with the pedal axle under the first(?) metatarsal and shoes being perpendicular to the pedal axle and so on... I've said it before, and i'll probably say it again, but the whole bike fitting world is a bit like the wild west. But no Sheriffs.
And alter position on the bike – leading to someone potentially feeling like they are being ‘pulled forward’ on a bike, even more so when they try to move backwards or stand up, leading to a feeling of being ‘over the front’…
yes of course, all good points
What i meant was “assuming the bars are in the same place”
So comparing two bikes with the same angles
Bike A longer stem shorter top tube
Bike B shorter stem longer top tube
Both bikes have the same distance from the bars to the saddle
Bike A is more directionally stable and has more weight on the front wheel sat in the normal riding position
Work for me… *shrug shoulders emoji*
Yes, but what's the benefit over say a nicely swept flat bar?
They make perfect sense on a ultra-racers gravel bike, because TT clip-on bars would get in the way and likely need huge raiser blocks with flat bars.
I’m a non-roadie. Wide-ish shoulders
I'm an ex-prop-forward *shrug big shoulders emoji* 😉
Beacon XL's on a fast descent :
*shrug big shoulders emoji*
*applauds*
(intrigued as to what that GIF was other than a 404 error)
Yes, but what’s the benefit over say a nicely swept flat bar?
Better aero for the - admittedly short) road sections of my routes.
TBF on this bike I've only compared them to 44cm hood-width drops with less flare and I much preferred the wider bar. Used 9deg backsweep flat bar on previous bike for the similar riding/use and found road sections a drag. Also, current bike geometry isn't optimised for flat bars and would be too short for me (454mm reach on a XL).
It's a(nother) good example of me being a bit weird and liking something different I guess.
Me, I prefer a slightly longer stem, for added directional stability. I even fitted a 110mm to my flat bar fatbike used mostly on tarmac, which made sweeping downhill bends at up to ~40kph feel fun and stable.
I found carbon bars are great for comfort, my fatbike has a 747mm "chewy" Knuckleball and my road bike has a 380mm (at hoods, 400mm at drops) Primavera. Could feel improvement when already running carbon forks and wide tyres.
I have ~44cm shoulders. The narrow carbon road bars replaced a set of 42cm alloy bars iirc, they reduced the aero brickness of my very upright Cube Attain and their bit of flexiness and shape made them comfy, but in search of more aero I had to build up to putting all spacers above stem when my lower back was happy.
If you want to use the bike on tarmac and mild offroad, you might want to look at shoulder width plus 2-5cm.
There are some handy lessons they've started to adopt on Road and Gravel bikes that align with a couple of things in the MTB world, Seat angles seem to be getting more upright (at least on bikes that muggles might want to ride further than about 30 miles), coupled with inline posts that should help more with hip angles and associated fatigue/stresses, related is a move to shorter cranks arms, that's only really gotten attention because Poge has been spotted using 165mm...
Bar widths have started to reduce again, mostly to accommodate aero positioning on the hoods (puppy paws etc), and notably a bit of flair has been added to both road and gravel bars as well as people recognising that stems don't all have to be 120mm+, flipped and slammed for all riders (even integrated bar/stems seem to be getting some shorter reach options now). Head tubes have also gotten longer meaning you don't need a comical number of spacers under your stem to achieve a comfy height.
For my own part I'm about to start experimenting with several of the above 'fads' mostly because my middle aged joints need considering, but also because there are more parts about now that allow you to do some of these things.
related is a move to shorter cranks arms, that’s only really gotten attention because Poge has been spotted using 165mm…
It's been a "thing" getting attention since Poge was still riding in the juniors...
Longer stem and narrower bars. I’m on 36cm and 130mm stem which works well. I previously had 46cm bars. For someone of smaller build I’d definitely go narrow and work reach from there. My x-wings are even narrower at the shifters, but that’s on trend and allows for more aeroz. I’d just go with standard shallow drop 36 bars.
(intrigued as to what that GIF was other than a 404 error)
MJ holding the trees and getting blown away in the video to Earth Song. I'd cropped the link slightly too much, and I really wish this forum would sort out it's quirks and get image posting working properly again
images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/12800000/Earth-Song-michael-jackson-12869106-248-200.gif