Forum menu
No pedals on the bike, and it looks spotless so unlikely to be crash damage. Looks like transit if I were to guess. Sorry it looks like you may have to chalk to experience 🙁
90% degree impact no paint flake or scratch i guess something very hard through the packaging not a crash i guess damage in transit , possibly last box in a van or such like door slammed on it to make it shut.
Rather an inflammatory title given the circumstances .
That looks very much like the damage to a frame of mine caused a few years ago during its handling somewhere in transit to the Alps.
The front wheel had moved in the packaging and ended up being bounced or crushed against the frame.
I only noticed the morning after it had been built back up in the resort as I took the padding off the frame tubes last of all.
Was no damage to the axle (Hope Xc) bar a tiny witness mark.
Sucks but I'd say transit damage.
legend - Member
How far from there would the axle have been when it was all boxed up?
Those are my thoughts too. 🙁
Had a bike damaged in transit and the dent looked just like that. The end of the axle had pressed into the downtube. I can only presume it had been stored on it's side and had stuff piled on top of it or someone stood on it.
The nine days thing seems a little odd though.
90% degree impact no paint flake or scratch i guess something very hard through the packaging not a crash i guess damage in transit , possibly last box in a van or such like door slammed on it to make it shut.
Hmm, OK, so I guess I can't rule out damage in transit.
Still, taking 9 days to file a claim and a further 11 days to send through some supporting photos is verging on ridiculous! It's the buyer's responsibility to check over the item for damage promptly. I think that PayPal's policy of a 40-day claims window for second hand goods is unfounded.
A text message and a photo 1-2 days after delivery and there would have been no argument. That's a 5 minute job with a smartphone.
Wonder if Paypal might consider 9 days to be longer than reasonable for a refund.
I think it's something like 45 days to lodge a dispute.
The only thing I am wondering about is did the buyer sign for the package as being received undamged? If they did, and looked at in isolation, I wonder if that would nuke the foundations of their dispute.
Regardless of this, the OP will end up taking the bike back and refunding. Just one of those things.
Yeah, but to be honest, it's also unreasonable to think that a buyer would be able to carry out a thorough check of the bike at the moment of delivery, especially a bike wrapped in many layers of cardboard and bubble-wrap. In any case, no mention of any confirmation of no damage on the proof of delivery receipt.
However, I still maintain that any complaints pertaining to clear visible damage should be lodged within 1-2 working days.
A blind man on a galloping horse would have spotted that on opening the box. Why would you even bother building it up after seeing that?
This.
if it was done in transit surely the box would have been damaged/market and the buyer would have noticed this?
I received a bike with similar damage once caused by the axle on the downtube there was no damage to the box at all. I had a quick look in the box to check it was a bike with wheels in the box and all looked packed properly
I then put it in the bike cupboard as no point building it up as I was going away on hols in a couple of days so it wasn't until almost 20 days til I noticed. So it's not always as cut and dried as it seems
In my case I just chalked it up to experience though as I could see what had happened and it was boxed up pretty well.and tbh it didn't affect the ride. Annoying though but such is life.
The signing for a parcel thing never works - everyone always just signs for the parcel even if the box does look bashed, and often it's not the actual buyer who signs, it's their wife/husband/brother/secretary/neighbour who doesn't know to look for damage.
Anyway, it's probably fixable if you get it back.
Have you asked him why it took nine days to notice? Has the buyer bled the rear brake?
If rear brake is bled I wouldn't want to refund tbh.
However, I still maintain that any complaints pertaining to clear visible damage should be lodged within 1-2 working days.
You can put this in your Ts&Cs next time then.
Not being unsympathetic, but I think you may be jumping to conclusions a bit. Buyer could have been tied up with Xmas stuff.
The immediate raising of a PP dispute is a bit off, but there are a lot of angry and distrustful people out there only too willing to assume the worst, eh?
Do we know who the buyer is yet?
Some people sign for things and don't open or inspect for days depending on how busy they are/job hours.
I had the exact problem with a coffee machine I sold on ebay. Sent it in the original packaging (un-dented). Said he could return it and I would refund (he pays p&p) - refused. Offered the guy a discount - refused. In the end I had to knock something like £30 off the price just so he was happy. It was a brand new machine I got under warranty and he had it off me for 30% of RRP. IMO he's looking for a bit of money off or something - don't give it to him.
Some people sign for things and don't open or inspect for days depending on how busy they are/job hours.
....and don't contact the buyer once they have found time in their busy schedule to open the box, but go straight to a paypal dispute?
It's an aluminium frame much softer than you think.....my sons bike a dent a little smaller, hell knows how he did it though.
JeZ
This I what I think has happened.
He has received the bike,opened it and it's damaged,he's sucked it up and thought "bugger it I'll have it anyway".
He's then gone out for a ride with his mates who have said "that looks a mess","you should get your money back for that".
Gone home and contacted PayPal to save face.
Just a thought.
It's not aluminium. Every single p7 was steel.
P7 frames are steel.
It also looks to be courier damage, can you open a dispute with them? Even without insurance they have a duty to deliver goods undamaged.
Have you asked him why it took nine days to notice? Has the buyer bled the rear brake?If rear brake is bled I wouldn't want to refund tbh.
ctk, I have contacted the buyer again. As yet, no response or explanation for the 9 days. One development is that I managed to identify the bike shop where the bike was taken to get checked over. The guy I spoke with remembers the buyer coming in to get the dent checked out, but doesn't remember any backstory being given. However, he kindly offered to check whether the rear brake was bled. I guess I'll soon know.
Do we know who the buyer is yet?
granny_ring, I don't want to name any names at this point. As some people have pointed out, the whole dispute might be down to the buyer's complacency, rather than dishonestly. Until I get to the bottom of it, I'm going to keep the identity confidential.
It's an aluminium frame much softer than you think.....my sons bike a dent a little smaller, hell knows how he did it though.
jezzep, it's a steel frame, not aluminium, so it should hold up much better with a dent. In fact, the guy in the shop said the damage wasn't catastrophic, but given time would be a weak point. Regardless, it's evidently damaged.
Looks similar to a dent that happened to a bike of mine that got flown out to Nepal. I spent a lot of time carefully packing it in a cardboard box with pipe lagging, bubblewrap, spare tyres etc and the front wheel axle still managed to put a dent in the frame. But, that was being manhandled by 2 different airlines.
And, if I was buying something like this, costing quite a bit of my hard earned money, I'd be quite excited about it and open it and inspect it the day it arrived! So I don't quite get why it's taken them so long to get back to you? Really in 10 to 15 mins you can get it out the box and inspect it, then if it's damaged in transit you can then claim against the couriers straight away.
I've seen damage like that on poorly packed bikes - usually with no damage to the box. In our situation we're always keen to get the bike unboxed and built right away in order to check for damage and to find any other broken or non-working parts. We always send photos of any damage back to the customer.
In a 1:1 situation like yours there is every chance that similar transit damage has occurred and that the buyer didn't unpack and build the bike immediately on arrival (I've had a Marley frame in my garage for over a week).
Your chances of getting anything from the couriers ate going to be zero if you didn't pay for insurance.
Hmm, I can see that inspecting an item for damage is quite a grey area, especially as far a second hand items are concerned.
In my opinion, damage can be broadly categorised as 'obvious' and 'hidden' (for sure, there will be exceptions).
I would categorise a big dent in a bike frame as 'obvious' damage that can be easily identified with a naked eye. By contrast, if you bought a RockShox Reverb with damaged hydraulics, it would be reasonable to assume that you're unlikely to find out about this until you fit it, i.e. 'hidden' damage.
As such, once the damage is categorised, I think different claim periods should be deemed as 'reasonable' for each category.
In the case of 'obvious' damage, I think that a reasonable length of time to contest the condition of an item would be much shorter (in my opinion, 3 working days max), unless the buyer can prove that it was not them that collected the parcel and that they had a valid reason preventing them from inspecting the item in the given time window. I would go as far as saying that as part of any sales contract, it is as much the buyer's responsibility to make a prompt visual inspection of the item, as it is the seller's to describe the item accurately. After all, if the seller doesn't find out in time, it may prevent them from seeking compensation from the courier and the item itself may also devalue over time.
In the case of 'hidden' damage, I would agree that the length of time stipulated by PayPal to make a claim (40 days I think) is reasonable. If you buy a component with internal damage, you can't be expected to fit it immediately to find out. The only caveat here is that the buyer should be able to prove that the item is unused, which, admittedly, might prove very difficult in the case of second hand items.
Please excuse my rambling now, but if my bike was indeed damaged in transit, and given the nature of the damage, I think that the 'obvious' category applies here and the claim should have been made promptly, especially that the buyer's signature is on the online proof of delivery receipt. Whatever the case, I doubt that PayPal has any specific rules surrounding these 'criteria'.
If it was damage in transit why did the buyer continue to build the bike in full? If I had left it X days then opened up the box and laid out all the bits I'd inspect and notice that. Even if not so as soon as you put it in a workstand you'd notice it. Then I'd stop doing anything more and photo it
Unless- he gave the box etc to a bikeshops. The mechanic would build it assuming you'd bought it that way or something was lost in communication and it was mentioned at the till when the bike was complete as the manager wanted the build paying for in full.
I'd want alot more info. I'd also have sent it fully insured.
Whenever I've had something like a frame or forks I'm eager to get it built that day and test ridden. Maybe that's just me...but I query the long gap from receipt to photo/dispute.
One person's "valid reason" for not inspecting immediately is another person's toddler with chicken-pox, or family visiting for the holidays, or similar. I'd be a bit miffed that they went straight to Paypal dispute (if I've understood that correctly), but I don't see any other option than to suck it up.
warpocow, I agree with you that the reason can be easily manipulated.
This I what I think has happened.
He has received the bike,opened it and it's damaged,he's sucked it up and thought "bugger it I'll have it anyway".
He's then gone out for a ride with his mates who have said "that looks a mess","you should get your money back for that".
Gone home and contacted PayPal to save face.
Just a thought.
It seems to me that a variation of this scenario is most probable version of events.
Also, I just noticed in the first photo that it looks like the rear brake was indeed fiddled with as the cable has popped out of its guide on the seatstay - this wouldn't happen on its own.
However, the bike shop guy got back to me saying that he just checked and they didn't carry out any work of the rear brake.
To be honest, it's not a big job, so the buyer may have bled it himself. I guess I'll soon know, as from the sound of things the bike will likely be getting sent back to me.
coolbeanz - Member2. Insure the package. I posted with Parcel2Go and opted out of paying £25, or so, for insurance as I figured that the bike was very well packaged and losing a massive bike box would be pretty darn difficult.
You took a chance on any loss or damage to contents by saving £25, your gamble never paid off. Only option now is to either partial or full refund.
bruneep, while this is true, assuming that it did indeed get damaged in transit, even if I had insurance, it would be too late to claim. Parcel2Go only allow claims within 14 days and given that the photos came through 20 days after delivery was made, I wouldn't have been able to claim anyway. As I said before, I would have happily refunded the money had the claim been made within a day or two.
OP, fair enough if you don't want to name the buyer because having read the thread again some of the 'blame' does lay with you I feel, as others have said.
I get that your really pissed off about it, especially with the delay, which does put a shadow of doubt over the buyer but hopefully lessons learned. You have no way it seems of proving if it was damaged in transit or buyer is having you over and I doubt you will find out...?
Fingers crossed it does end well.
Over the years I have received a damaged frame which I bought off here. It was kind of well packed but not well enough to cope with the Parcel Force boys/girls who had laid box flat and stacked other stuff on it = snapped chainstay.
The other time was when I bought a new bike which was very poorly packed and frame & forks got scratched by the wheels.
My advice, to myself included is.....
- Take lots of detailed pics.
- Pack the goods well
- [b][u]PAY[/u][/b] for insurance to the value of the goods.
Good luck anyway.
I hope you get it resolved one way or another,problems like this make me feel physically sick when they happen,when you know you packed and sent it in good order.
[quote=ricky1 ]I hope you get it resolved one way or another,problems like this make me feel physically sick when they happen,when you know you packed and sent it in good order.
Physically sick? 😯
you really need to get out more if a item damaged in the post makes you sick.
I sold bike just before Xmas and courier insurance cost more than the postage... You pays your money and takes your chances.
What makes me mad about the necessity for courier (or postage) insurance is that basically the company are saying "we can't trust ourselves to deliver your item intact."
Why do we, as consumers, put up with this shoite?
My inkling is that it was damaged in transit and buyer took his time making his mind up whether to keep it or not.
Gust a thought, what happens if it gets damaged on its return leg????
I've had the same issue with some computer parts, they got returned as a pin had got bent in transit (only 1), whe I got it back it was completely buggered.
You should check the TNCs for couriers when shipping bikes. Most won't cover frame damage, but will happily let you pay for additional compensation for loss only.
Sorry if I missed it.
I know it was paid for via PayPal but was it an eBay sale?
Just curious how much and how good the buyers feedback was?
Anyway, not a good situation for all involved.
Sorry to hear you've had so many issues, sure it's really frustrating...for this reason I only trade online for PayPal gift payments for cheaper items or cash on collection for anything over £50ish.