[Closed] Differences between xc and road racing

there's been a few interesting articles about fit triathletes/mtbers turnign up at road races and causing crashes because they aren't used to riding in a 'bunch'.

If it were me I'd also be lookign for a local roadie 'club run' so I coudl get some practice in at riding on road with others.

what wwaswas said

also MTB XC is more time trial like (constant, you control the effort)so ridden more at threshold. Road racing, especially the shorter ones, can be very jumpy and so you will need to be able to go into the red and then recover.

1. Get out on your nearest road club's chaingangs, and learn to ride smoothly at speed.

2. Sign up for TLI road races. These are categorised by age, but tend not to be so bonkers first time out as road races.

3. However much you train now, nothing will prepare you for that faaaaark moment as the bunch takes off and you're chewing on the stem trying not to be thrown out of the back.

No idea about XC racing but, like cross, it's essentially "easier" to take part on the basis that there is no bunch to be dropped from. In road racing, once you're out the back that's effectively your day over. Not the same in XC or CX.

You can't ponce in an XC race (although mincing seems to be acceptable) in road races you try and use the least effort possible and save it for the sprint. XC is kind of the opposite, total bonkers at the start until the field splits then its attrition.

[i]mincing seems to be acceptable[/i]

or mandatory, even 😉

Another vote for what wwaswas says.

The thing mentioned about crashes is less to do about categories and more to do with experience so don't worry too much about it.

Get out for some road rides with a local road club - contrary to popular belief most are very welcoming and, certainly over winter, the club rides are not a case of ride as fast as possible, leave everyone for dead, they're nice social events. And you learn to ride in a group.

Road racing is a funny old thing. At times it can feel like a club ride as everyone pootles along at 18-20mph, other times you can be watching your HR hit hitherto unrecorded heights as you cling on for grim death at 35mph!

MTB is a bit more constant, you're often on your own for large parts of the race so it all goes mental at the start then you just try and ride as hard as possible for the length of the race.

CX is a nice middle ground, very accessible, cheap and easy to enter (most races you can do on your MTB). The tactic with CX is to ride as fast as possible, try to catch the person in front and try to drop the person behind! In CX you don't need to worry about food/drink either - if you have time to eat or drink, you're not trying hard enough! 😉

Am i right in thinking training for road requires a lot more base training as you spend the majority of the time sub threshold whereas an xc race you spend a lot of the time at threshold + ?

Am i right in thinking road racing has more categories and it's easier to get into than xc racing? Is there an equivalent cat 4 in xc (say open?)

I'd be interested in entering a few short xc races (sub 2 hour). What's the difference between the categories and do you get a points to move up to categories?

No. As above, road races usually require short intense efforts but mostly lower steady state, with xc you do all the pedalling around your lactate threshold. You don't need specific training to ride at a lower steady state.

IME (Scottish) there are road races for cats 1-3, 2-4, 4 only and sometimes open. XC is "easier" to get into as you race on age (or abilty for elite) and elite is the only ability-based category.

And weirdly, I would say road racing is good training for XC, but I doubt it works the other way around. Thats why I did road racing anyway my starts got super super fast.

I think XC has less of a learning curve - I was involved in more crashes in road races than ever saw in XC, so I took to hanging back a bit which is suicide. (and I was racing with the 50/60 age blokes there were never enough women for our own race)

And as final advice: 3/4 cat races are carnage in Scotland - see the Braveheart forum and all the roadies having tantrums about it...

If it were me I'd also be lookign for a local roadie 'club run' so I coudl get some practice in at riding on road with others.

I have joined a club (VC Bristol) been out on several club rides and 3 time trials (also cycled from london > barcelona in the summer) so a little experienced of riding in groups, drafting, being on the front

I actually went to see andy wadsworth on monday (he trains liam Kileen and oli beckingsale) for a fitness test

(To get my Heart rate training zones,Fat burning profile, Anaerobic threshold, Calorie usage, Aerobic Base point, VO2 Max)

I did this so i know where my current fitness level is and i wanted to get more structure to my training (didn't want to fall into the classic case of just riding if i'm to ever do good at this)

he said at the time a training plan for road racing would be very different to xc racing (and elite xc guy himself)

I obviously know at my current state a lot of this wouldn't matter a great deal as I'm not cat1/elite level)

TD, hadn't you better learn to stay on a bike without crashing and denting it before you think about fitness and all that crap?

😉

Well the bike was in full XC race mode at that point (massively high seat, no adjustable seat clamp, very flat ,low bars) and then realising you led me down a steep section with a massive bombhole at the bottom.

It still works okay 🙂

From my experience, you can work like a dog in RR and get absolutely nowhere i.e. you and a few others end up being the bunch engines only to get jumped at the end.
Whereas working like a dog in XC will usually get you a decent result.
🙂

surely andy wadsworth could answer your question. biggest difference is riding in a bunch at a pace that is dictated by others, which will sometimes be far more intense than anything. xc is more like an individual time trial with added technical difficulty.

Yes he probably can (at a cost). I only went for a fitness test and not as a client of his. I didn't get chance to question him ( i was too busy blowing out my ass on a bike with a gimp type mask thing round my mouth 😀

Another key difference is that in an XC race (unless you're Expert or Elite) you'll be racing in an age class of very variable abilities meaning a strung out race, whereas in Road the categories are mostly by ability not age meaning things are tighter.

The advice above sums up the differences pretty well. I would add that the other significant difference is that XC does not have the tactical element of RR: When do you sit in? When and where do you attack? Which breaks should you follow, and which ones should you ignore? If you are not a fast finisher, how do you get away from the sprinters? If you are a sprinter, how do you stop a breakaway before the finish? How does the weather influence your plan? etc, etc, etc.
All good fun.

From my exoeriences as a fat punter, i was quite surprised at the speed of road racing. I did several TLI races which were quick but i could finish. I entered a couple of cat 4 races and got absolutely blasted! One at Grantham, I could only just keep up in the neutralised start, and once it got going i got dropped straight away.

You need to train a lot more / harder i think than for XC or cyclocross. Or rather, it is easier to get away with less training in those disciplines. As has been mentioned above, getting out on local club runs over winter will be a good way to build up to it (that is what i never managed to do).

Having said all that, the handicap TLI races that i have done have been great experiences (other than people going 100% at the start only to drop out halfway through the race once they have destroyed themselves and then ruined everyone elses chances 🙁 )

2nd the riding in a bunch comments. I did some road racing last year and going into corners with 30 odd people around you takes a lot of getting used to. I'd go into a corner mid pack and come out at the back...

Yep as above. Tactics or rather positioning play a key part. I've done a fair few races were I was getting away with it, but put yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time and you have a real fight on your hand. Essentially if the big guns go you have to as well. I'm a classic mid field finisher, but a personal example of how to go out the back, find yourself on the back without realizing it, then the bunch attacks not once not twice but three times in a row and it's goodbye.
When I raced a lot, base wasn't an issue but bridging the gaps from intense attacks was a problem. So I worked on that millisecond moment, played it clever and broke into the top ten.
Deffo helped with XC. But I've always found XC races are dominated by a few lone riders that generally no one can touch. And races become a series of individual battles.
Cross Hmmmm. Everyones out there at the same time. Personally if I'm feeling good I'll have a pop, if I'm not I'll race my 'fellow regular racers'. For me cross hurts more but isn't anywhere near as hard as road if that makes sense. XC isthe easiest, however I'm not at all technical and quite literally fall over on wet techy circuits.
Going back to crashes, they didn't happen in my day. I missed the 4th cat thing, it was 1/2/3 back then, then straight into LVRC racing. Crashes seem to have coincided with the introduction of the 4th cat and the what I call modern strong sports rider i.e very fit, very fast, very well equipped but come to the sport with no 'racers' feel, that ability to read the minds of fellow riders and ride safe and clever races.

Cycling at 35mph+ about a foot from someone else's wheel really is quite fun. Things get very tight in road races!

Where are you based trickydisco?

A foot! lets call it six inches.
I once raced a very tight Crit. The bunch was so big and compact I sortof lost sense of where the horizon was and started to feel sick and disorientated.....that was also in the days before MTFU 😳

The "problem" with races is that you need to be pretty good even to be crap if you see what I mean!

It's not unusual for first timers in a road race (particularly in a crit which tends to be faster and with more corners) not to finish the first couple of races. It's quite a steep learning curve.

Stick with it though and you'll be rewarded with some great races, massively improved fitness and technique and maybe a few good results.

For a first time you can enter most 4th Cat races on the day, you don't need a licence (buy it on the day for a few quid extra). Once you get more into it, you'll need a British Cycling membership and racing licence, then you can start gaining points from race results.

>roadie_in_denial

Based in Bristol.

There's 4 of us from the club that are going to try our hand in 4th cat. 1 of them used to race before so knows a thing or to. There's also a couple of handy 1st cat guys in the club that have given tips.

The club also run a few crits at castle coomb and after putting a 26:10 TT time (no tri bars) one of the guys at the club said "oh you'll be fine for this 4cat crit we're organising"

unfortunately/fortunately it was the weekend of the kielder so i didn't go. One of the guys i ride with regularly has done 2 and he said he held on for about 4 laps before being dropped and i've been out with him and i'd say i'm fitter than him (drop him on the climbs and can keep the pace when it shoots up)

but like you say depends on the day and what everyone else is like.

I've now got BC silver membership as well so would be covered.

BC silver in itself doesn't give you a race license, you have to buy one on top.

The biggest difference, IMHO, is that the best rider usually wins an XC race, whilst the cleverest rider wins a road race.

I don't really enjoy road racing, done quite a lot over the years, although admittedly nearly all have been crits. Most people race very negatively, they lack the jump to get across to a break, so you tend to find people dragging the bunch back to any breaks. Crashes also tend to be pretty grim, and are rarely your fault, unlike in XC racing!

The whole mentality is different too, most road races are all serious, people show up, rub embrocation on their legs, race, and go home. XC racing is far more sociable, more of an 'event'.

BC silver in itself doesn't give you a race license, you have to buy one on top.

yes, yes I know that. I meant i've got insurance. I didn't pay the extra obviously as the season has ended for this year

The biggest difference, IMHO, is that the best rider usually wins an XC race, whilst the cleverest rider wins a road race.

I don't really enjoy road racing, done quite a lot over the years, although admittedly nearly all have been crits. Most people race very negatively, they lack the jump to get across to a break, so you tend to find people dragging the bunch back to any breaks. Crashes also tend to be pretty grim, and are rarely your fault, unlike in XC racing!

It's this kind of thing that is making me rethink actually. My primary passion is obviously mountain biking and i'd love to enter some xc races but always thought there wasn't the kind of categories in mountain biking like road racing (and easier to get into road racing)

i think xc is probably easier to 'get into'. it doesn't matter so much how good or bad you are, you'll be riding round at your own best pace . in road racing if your not of a sufficient standard you'll be dropped and its all over. just enter one and see how it goes.

Road racing doesn't have the 'fun' categories, and in that respect is harder to get into. If you're not fit, you just won't finish. IMO if you're not up there in road racing, it's not that enjoyable. It's certainly a steep learning curve, but too many races are just spent sitting in the bunch waiting for a sit in sprinter, or getting away only to have the group dragged back to you.

Riding around near the back of an XC race can be great fun, I've done it enough! There's a personal challenge in XC racing, and you know that your result reflects your input alone!

.....one other option is enter a 3/4 hilly/hard road race which tends to have more of a natural selection. This oftens gets rid of weaker riders when you get 3rd cats(who may have dropped down from 2nd) hammering it up the first hill.

MTB races feel like time trials to me and I enjoy the 'race craft' of a road race. Personally would race a road race before a crit if your not used to riding in a group. Crits are great fun if you like throwing it into bends and bumping elbows but not for the faint hearted if your not used to it.

Good luck

njee20

What are the categories in xc? Would it dependant on age/level? and can anyone basically turn up and enter?

Right...

You can, at any age, race:

Fun
Open
Sport
Expert (top 15 sport riders go up each year)
Elite (top 5 experts go up, any outside the top 50 go down)

Then there's:
Masters (30-39)
Veteran (40-49)
Grand vet (50-59)
Super vet (60+)

Masters is a bit of a red herring, as it's bloody fast at the front, there being no notable degredation in performance by age 30! In fact, many top elites including Oli Beckingsale and Ade Lansley could race masters.

You don't need a licence for anything that's not BC ranked. At BC events you need one for elite and expert, and some sport races. No open or fun races require licenses.

This may change, as recently masters has become home to some incredibly good riders who have turned 30, so there's talk of going to a road style category system. They've done it in the US and keep talking about it here.

age, but i'm not too sure about anything other than vet as i'm over 40. something like youth/junior?, sport 18-30, master 30-39, vet 40-49, super/grand vet 50+. expert and elite are riders who have gained the necessary points to qualify. in my local series this year i'd say masters was the most competetive cat (biggest field with quite a lot of very good riders). theres often a fun category if your really unsure, they are shorter and supposed to be for novices.........
too slow there, and in a race today:-)

I wouldn't say masters is the most competitive category, it does tend to have the biggest range though. Often people being lapped, which is unusual in most categories.

For 2011 a lot of the really quick masters are going to elite, so masters may come back to being for 'normal' people over 30.

it might not be, but there was very few expert/elite turning up at the events i rode which doesn't make for a competitive race. there was a number of masters who could have raced at their level and a couple of vets. i think it makes good sense that they (the fast masters) should be racing as elite/expert.

Depends what you call competitive I guess, like I say it gets big fields with huge range. At national level you get big fields in expert and elite too, which tend to be a lot closer in ability. Masters usually tails off more outside the top 15 or so.

Local races do certainly get smaller fields, the last Gorrick had 3 In the combined elite/expert category!

it didn't look competitive, even though i'm sure there was plenty of effort going into it. a small number of riders spread over several minutes. same rider won all the time and with apparent ease. i'd like to see bigger fields and if that requires masters in there that sounds good to me. road categories make more sense to me.

The problem with road categories is how to apply them, in road there's enough events that's it's just cumulative, as you reach a number of points you move up. In XC only your top 9 results count, and you only move up category once a season. There would also be some series which wouldn't adopt it, making it more confusing.

Agree that smaller categories often aren't competitive, but like I said, you usually get 50+ elites at NPSs and a similar number of experts. Elite is proper elbows out racing!

clearly no system is going to be perfect. i'd like to see a top class elite race, maybe i'll enter an nps vets and watch the proper riders next year.

I'm sure its ben mentioned already, but road racing probably requires far more work above threshold than XC. You need to have the power to hang onto the bunch when it speeds up/make a break when the time is right. 4th cat races aren't very long so you won't a massive base isn't really necessary.

This is the advice i got

For road racing you need to build a very efficient cardiovascular system rather like having a big engine so you don’t have to burn rich (burn too many sugars) during the first part of the race. It doesn’t matter how good you are during the race if you have nothing left at the end when the going gets tough and you need your turbo to kick
in. So you need to get your Aerobic base point as high as possible (zone 2 where you can utilize the most fat) and then have a threshold which is as high as possible and as close to your maximum as possible to get the best
effect (zone 4).

If your Aerobic base point can climb up to being closer to your threshold you stand the chance of being able to kick back into using fats during the easier sections of the race and therefore leave your turbo with
some energy in it for the later stages.

With the right training you should be able to get your Aerobic base point to increase and your Threshold. If you aerobic base point moves closer to your threshold you will be able to hold higher intensity training and racing for longer due to the usage of fats and greater oxygen transporting efficiency.

Pretty much agree with all the posts 😀 .....bottom line.... they both hurt 😀 ... sometimes it hurts and your fast.... sometimes it hurts and your slow.

Lots of sound advice above.

My two best nuggets of wisdom for you are fairly basic if you want to get into road racing:

1) learn to be comfortable/confident in a fast-moving, tightly packed bunch. A lot of fit guys and time-triallers assume they can automatically road-race and cause a lot of crashes cos they can't handle a bike in those circumstances. As such 4th Cat races are generally clumsy affairs (so don't take a nice bike!)

2) As someone else mentioned above, you gotta have a 'jump'. If you haven't got one, you gotta get one. There's a lot of pace fluctuation in road racing (certainly in the lower levels). Whenever the pack kicks off, you gotta go with them or it's game over.

Only done a couple of XC races and they were more like time trials. TBH. Or a two-hour 'Cross race. They soon evolved into individual riders just going as fast as they could.

I suggest *strongly* you come and have a go at a 'Cross race 😉 There's one at Ashton Court next Sunday. Email me for details.

worth bearing in mind, that racings not about going as fast as you can.... its about going faster than everyone else can.

The biggest difference, IMHO, is that the best rider usually wins an XC race, whilst the cleverest rider wins a road race.

Sorry, but that is a load of rubbish!

The best rider will win either race.

i've won a few road races. i wasn't the best athlete in any of them, but it could be said i did the best ride. a decent turn of speed and the experience (and a bit of good luck) of how to make the most of it made up for average abilty.
i'm not very experienced at xc but know that its highly unlikely i could win one. i'm just not good enough.
so i think the comment above is badly worded but i know where its coming from

but your turn of speed and experience is part of your ability to win races. when you won, you were the best of the entrants on that day.

it's a bit like a powerhouse TTer getting a kicking in an XC race and saying that the best guy didn't win because the course was too technical.

i agree with you. theres a lot more to being the best rider than being the strongest at holding a high speed for 2 hours. sadly, riding to your strengths is seen by some riders as being sneaky or lazy (if your strength is sprinting). thats probably what was meant by "the cleverest rider wins a road race". but for me being clever is part of being the best rider, and theres more opportunity to be clever in road races.

Cross race sounds awesome Chas. I just don't have a cross bike and have no experience of riding a cross bike (let alone in a race)

If it's this Sunday I might come along and take a look.

just don't have a cross bike and have no experience of riding a cross bike (let alone in a race)

You are unlikely to need one - plenty of people (including me last year) ride MTBs. I know an rider who'd regularly thrash cross riders on his MTB. But then he is quite a handy road racer, too.....