[Closed] Death on Winnats Pass yesterday

Plus the head-on cyclist car collision in Miller's dale yesterday

Yeah that's terrible. Cycling Weekly site has more info

Very sad news. The loose sheep are a big hazard when descending Winnats at speed. Not saying they were to blame here... but watch out for them peeps.

Oh that's awful news. That is definitely one of the more terrifying descents, but still, you don't expect to hear about people dying.

What time did it happen?

Could it have been a driver trying to make the gap first?

Heard from a relative of the man who was riding with the poor girl....her brakes failed on the descent. Winnats is a frightening descent at the best of times, can't imagine the terror of having your brakes fail on there.
RIP

That's terrible.

My condolonces to the family and friends of the unfortunate soul.

Oh man 🙁

That's awful, a very bad day for cycling in the peak and terrible for the families and friends

Really sad news! RIP

ouch. oh dear.

Similar, IIRC, incident during first Bealach na Ba challenge -- chap's brakes failed (over-heated or even rim / tube exploded), straight off a corner down a slope, alive but some paralysis I think.

That is awful and truly scary! Can't imagine brakes failing going down there!

That's horrendous - thoughts with her family and friends.

I'm sure we can all well imagine how terrifying that would have been - it makes me feel queasy thinking about it.

RIP.

terrible news.
I've wondered before what would be the best thing to do if your brakes failed - try and ride it out or bail on the tarmac?

How do brakes "fail"?

maybe the brake pad is a bit loose? and pops 'under' the rim when you squeeze the lever hard...

maybe the pads are old? - and have gone hard.

maybe they were just crap - and this only became apparent when trying to slow down from 30mph.

maybe the cable snaps?

maybe the pads are in backwards?

etc.

[i]How do brakes "fail"?[/i]

On a descent like Winnats:

Overheated rims/blocks
Boiled hydraulic fluid

Anywhere:

Cable snap
loss of hydraulic fluid
Loss of pads/blocks

brakes - Member
terrible news.
I've wondered before what would be the best thing to do if your brakes failed - try and ride it out or bail on the tarmac?

Brake like a kid and scuff your shoes along the Tarmac until you're going slow enough to bail, they're only shoes afterall.

down winnats? - i'm not sure that would work very well / at all...

a friend of mine who i'm sure actually has a few screws loose stood on one pedal, and jammed his 'free' leg inbetween the tyre and frame (probably works best with baggy shorts and knobbly tyres)

i'll be checking my wife's brakes thoroughly before her next ride.

so sad.

Front and rear?

Must have been terrifying. RIP

Terrible new RIP rider, condolences to family and friends

How do brakes "fail"?

Overheated rims/blocks

Not sure what later on in the afternoon was like there? But when I left and drove up Winnats at 1pm it was dry but very windy. I imagine if it'd rained suddenly (a squall?) it may not have helped?

My first thought was maybe she was in the middle of the road heading towards the gap/grid and a driver decided to go first- she veered off and didnt have enough time/distance to stop hence hitting the wall akwardly? The wall is only 4foot high isn't it?

try and ride it out or bail on the tarmac?

I'm getting shivers thinking about how you would actually do this. 1st choice would be a handful of back brake and lay it down, but you can't do that. Spazzing the bars and throwing yourself over the front? No ta. Just climb off onto 40+mph tarmac, I guess... uuhgg.

I can see how not bailing would be an easier choice at the time. Terryfing. Think I'll be checking my bikes more often in future.

When i was first told about this my first thoughts (after getting over the shock)as someone who regularly rides down (and up) Winnats was what i'd do in the situation.
It's easy to say you would just drop the bike and take the inevitable pain and severe road rash that comes with it as soon as you realised what was happening, but actually having the presence of mind to do that when your hurtling along at 45mph (which you would be doing very quickly with no brakes on Winnats) is another matter.
Unfortunately this poor girl won't ever have the benefit of hindsight to think about or practice what she should have done.

A friend of an acquaintance. One foot down did nothing. Tried to go up the banking but couldn't get the bike leaned over enough. Absolutely terrifying. Truly awful.

Very tragic news.

For those who don't know Winnats, I think this photo captures the gradient quite well.

[img] [/img]

hurtling along at 45mph

I followed a lad on what seemed to be a rigid single speed bike down there a few weeks ago- he was touching 45 too. No helmet and dressed XC oldschool. He didn't 'lift off' either as he went to towards the gate. Shudder to think what would have happened if he'd have slid out etc.

I will never ride down there now.

Winnats is arse puckering enough with working brakes if you're going for it.
Just slowing a tad for errant motors, sheep & walkers makes you realise that there's no such thing as an emergency stop.

Awful news.

Only 22 just a year younger than myself it hits home sometimes.

RIP. I too will check my kit tonight.

I'm wondering if it was me what I would do to deal with a brake failure. I think unclip, push the bike forward and try to barrel role like the motogp guys would be the only option.

Surely ramming your foot into the rim at 45mph will just mean sudden snapped spokes / broken ankle / fly over bars?

I've wondered before what would be the best thing to do if your brakes failed - try and ride it out or bail on the tarmac?

Low side anytime, I'd rather have the burns but come to a slower stop (hoping that no car is coming the other way).

Most people wouldn't have the stones to do that though, I should imagine most roadies have spent their cycling career riding under normal conditions. Where as mountain bikers and motocross/track day riders tend to spend a lot more time sliding around and playing with the bike. Different persective, so the poor girl can't really be blamed if she clammed up.

I'm wondering if it was me what I would do to deal with a brake failure. I think unclip, push the bike forward and try to barrel role like the motogp guys would be the only option.

Aggressively get the back wheel out (you don't need the brake to do this) if you can and go down with the bike, letting go/pushing it away just before you hit the deck. Pusing forward and jumping off the back (dirt jumper style) is going to be a harder fall, more likely just to trip and cave your face in.

I can understand one brake failing but both brake? That's just so sad.

Carbon rims combined with brake dragging?

I'm wondering if it was me what I would do to deal with a brake failure. I think unclip, push the bike forward and try to barrel role like the motogp guys would be the only option.

I've absolutely no idea what I'd do and I've fallen off lots of bikes. She could have been chosing her braking at the last moment then realised it wasn't there. All it'd take for a car to be anywhere near the cattle grid (i.e. further infront of her going the same way) and she swerved off- in the distance/time she had no time to react.

Again, would I lay the bike down or hang onto the levers saying shhhhhiiiii?

I believe the latter.

I had a lucky escape years ago. I also had a lucky escape with my hip when it should have been fractured- it happened so quick that I was a passenger in the accident. We've all been in those where afterwards you play it over in your mind thinking 'how did it happen/it all happened so quick'.

RIP and I am never going to ride down Winnats now. I'll ride up it but **** that. Its just too steep/long. Call it mincing but hey.

Aggressively get the back wheel out (you don't need the brake to do this)

On another note- would it be worth running discs instead of rim brakes if you are a heavier rider?

I know theres a c3lb weight increase on CX-style bikes though?

I'd just feel more comfortable knowing there are better(?) brakes with discs.

[i]I know theres a c3lb weight increase on CX-style bikes though?[/i]

0.5lb maybe.

I certainly feel more comfortable with a front disc on the roady though on steeeeeep stuff.

Poor girl. What tragic news.

I've ridden a fair few descents like that on a fixie with only a front brake, and at times I'd wonder what might happen if it ever failed. You can easily reach 40mph on a fairly steep hill without braking, and slowing down without brakes must be next to impossible. Jumping off or purposefully crashing can't be an easy thing to do - it goes against natural instincts - and there probably isn't a lot of time to react. Those roads aren't the most friendly places to do it either - lots of gravel and roadside rocks etc. One thing I learnt from my motorcycling days is that it's often possible to take corners faster than you'd think possible so long as you think positively, but that's always easier said than done, and in any case probably of no help when you're absolutely petrified and having to attempt a corner at a runaway speed.

I was on that first Bealach na Ba ride, and descending as the ambulance reached the crashed rider. I believe he panicked at the corner, tried to brake too hard, and went straight on without cornering.

I've absolutely no idea what I'd do

Brakeless BMXers get through a pair of shoes a week by sticking one foot on the rear tyre above the seatstays. I'm not condoning this for a second, but this came in handy for me at Kielder a few years ago when the pads went (which of course was gradual though still meant having no brakes for miles).

Horrible way to go. My thoughts go out to her family.

I'm wondering if it was me what I would do to deal with a brake failure. I think unclip, push the bike forward and try to barrel role like the motogp guys would be the only option.

I don't think rational thought comes into it at that speed and with that sudden "oh shit" moment. Couple that with a time gap of split seconds to impact and there's no chance. RIP. 🙁

I agree about Winnat's, it's a terrifying descent - I avoid it if at all possible.

RIP

Massive tragedy

Ive never had both brakes fail on the road though
Deeply unfortunate

I wonder how this happened?
(If indeed it was the case)

RIP and I am never going to ride down Winnats now. I'll ride up it but **** that. Its just too steep/long. Call it mincing but hey.

Not mincing at all, it'a lethal descent. It's so steep you have to keep the brakes on all the way down, it has loose sheep, loads of cars coming the other way in the middle of the road, loose rock/gravel, and to top it off a choke point and cattle grid bottom. It's pretty sh*t going up too. Far better to go down/up the road from Mam Tor to Edale.

0.5lb maybe.

I certainly feel more comfortable with a front disc on the roady though on steeeeeep stuff.

Any recommendations for carbon-good priced ones?

Planet X XLS is 21lb

Planet carbon Pro is 18lb

How awful.

I flew down there yesterday afternoon on the road bike. I even stopped just after the cattle grid because I could hear the front break starting to struggle.

I don't want to speculate on this case but the combination of steep gradient, uphill traffic and sudden narrowing of the road at the cattle grid is dangerous.

My deepest sympathy to anyone affected.

I seem to remember once many years ago having to put a foot on the front wheel to brake when I'd lost braking - possibly due to the conditions, icy rims perhaps rather than a failure. I crashed whilst actually trying to do it. However I was simply mincing down some muddy chossy trail rather than bombing along at 45mph.

Horrible accident and of course my sympathies to her and her family.

On really steep roads like this I always take it easy and ride the brakes so if something goes pop I have time to react. I'll only go for it on long open descents where I can see what's going on. Even then I shit myself at the thought of my carbon frame snapping or someone pulling out. When I was young it just never occurred to me.

I actually have experience of my brakes failing on a steepish tarmac descent at speed (though not as steep as Winnats and probably nowhere near as fast as she was going) - does that make me overqualified to comment? Hope XC4 closed disc brakes, the pads had worn and I'd not screwed in the adjusters (I suspect I might not have had enough adjustment left anyway). I bailed off the road onto the grass verge and somehow managed not to do any major damage as I went OTB and down a ditch. Though to be honest I'm not sure if there was any conscious plan or it was just what happened as I overcooked a corner - I was lucky. Really no time to think in such a situation - so I'm not sure you'd have the presence of mind to lay the bike down, though I reckon the best option on Winnats would also be to bail onto the grass at the sides.

[i]Planet X XLS is 21lb

Planet carbon Pro is 18lb [/i]

Is that with equivalent groupsets (except the brakes, obviously)? That weight difference surprises me. Anyway, I'd wager there's a more useless 3lbs on your belly that you could lose 😉

though I reckon the best option on Winnats would also be to bail onto the grass at the sides.

which has fairish-sized large rocks spaced out in parts next to the kerb.

"Brakes failed" I suspect is a lazy media shorthand for poor performing brakes applied too late (as in too late considering how ineffective they are). It was used in the media initially for a young lad I used to teach who died a couple of years ago. His bike turned out to have been badly adjusted with worn brakes of poor quality so he wasn't able to stop when he needed to in a hurry. Nothing 'failed' on the day - they were just too crap for the situation. His parents still talk about them failing despite inquest verdict - I think it maybe easier for them to live with.

It is so easy to pick up too much speed on those sort of descents - scary. I remember seeing the state of another rider after he hit a dry stone wall coming down Kirkstone in the Whitton a few years ago. You could see how it could get fatal very easily.

Massive sympathies.

caspian - Member

Brakeless BMXers get through a pair of shoes a week by sticking one foot on the rear tyre above the seatstays.

I've done that in the past, for jollies, on a MTB, on flat grass.
Doing 45mph on a road bike in a panic situation?
Not a chance.

Sad news. 🙁

Am I the only one thinking that the "What if" discussions are a bit distasteful?

RIP, awful thing to happen.

[quote=aracer ]Hiope XC4 closed disc brakes

Actually come to think of it I'm getting confused and I think it might have been the Formula open system I replaced those with - anyway still worn pads and lack of adjustment in the brakes.

[quote=hora ]

though I reckon the best option on Winnats would also be to bail onto the grass at the sides.

I didn't say it was a good option, just the best of those available - and to be fair it doesn't look that horrendous an idea on Streetview, though it does of course depend on how much time you have. As I mentioned I'm not convinced my off-road excursion was a choice.

Agree with Warton - people appear to be more interested in bike failure and what they would do not do, which would be an interesting topic elsewhere.

RIP

I ride Phil & Friends (now the Phil Liggett Challenge) most years so have only ridden up Winnats Pass. My blood ran cold when I read this thread imagining what events must have taken place. With the amount of traffic, pedestrians and sheep in that area I can't imagine why anyone would give it large down there.

One year I did P&F and broke a spoke in the back wheel after about 20 miles so had to release that brake off. It wasn't until I hit about 48 mph descending Holme Moss that the thought popped into my head "Hold on, I've only got one brake here!" (not to mention the buckled wheel).

[quote=FunkyDunc ]Agree with Warton - people appear to be more interested in bike failure and what they would do not do, which would be an interesting topic elsewhere.

Where else should we discuss this? Do we have to try and completely avoid discussing this particular incident when doing so?

I don't see anything particularly distasteful on this thread - on the contrary, surely it's a good thing if people learn something.

tragic incidents like this create awareness for others - I think respectful discussions that help others in similar situations have a place alongside expressions of grief.

Warton why? Its good to talk/discuss and something of benefit may come out of the debate.

maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed a little insensitive to me...

Very very sad news indeed.

I've bailed out after a long fast decent on my old Orca, it's not nice and it's certainly not the easiest option either when your brain is in panic mode.

Such sad news.

Such sad news.

I have only ridden up Winnats Pass and even then a women stalled her car in front of me and she ended up with the car across the narrow road. It occurred to me then what would happen if a cyclist was speeding down, could they have avoided a collision in time.

Terrible. I was up there a few weeks ago on the way back home from my Dads in Manchester. We thought we would drive up to the back of the old broken Chapel road take some pics and then head down Winnats with the kids. Its a 20% incline. Crazy. Such a tragically sad story my thoughts are with her family.

The 'what ifs' are a bit distasteful, yes. But it is quite a natural thing for people to try to rationalise tragic things like this, it is just that the forum on an internet site is probably not the place to speculate. Especially not so soon afterwards.

As I said before, it is not difficult to imagine the sheer terror of that situation and it makes my blood run cold thinking about it. I think we should leave it at that and give up the '24 hour rolling news / speculation' approach.

RIP.

Just been down, sobering to see a hole in the right side of the wall adorned with flowers. Very steep coming down

Rip and v sad news.

It is so easy to pick up too much speed on those sort of descents - scary. I remember seeing the state of another rider after he hit a dry stone wall coming down Kirkstone in the Whitton a few years ago. You could see how it could get fatal very easily.

I don't see anything disrespectful in learning lessons and even what ifs? I had a very hairy moment with a stationary car during the Helvellyn tri a few years ago near bottom of Kirkstone. We can count our blessings while remembering this can be a dangerous pastime.

I don't see anything disrespectful in learning lessons and even what ifs?

My condolences to the family and friends of the unfortunate rider, I'm truly sorry for your loss.