[Closed] Cyclocross bikes - I've seen the light!

If you're not gonna race on it, you might be better off with a 34/50 rings instead. You'll climb better and eat up more tarmac 😀

How can I tell the limits of my cranks with regard to changing teeth numbers?

And you should know, Chas 😉

Number of teeth would be determined generally by the rear mech "capacity" which will be stated somewhere on its spec.

Messin' around on 'cross bikes, great fun. Not sure I've got the balls to go racing 'cross but by all accounts it's a very sociable activity (see Mr Thruman above!).

It'll be a "road compact" AKA "old mtb" std? 34 is as small as you can go IIRC.

So you are comparing your cross bike with an mtb on road eh?

Rear mech cage size defines limit of chainset rings? Really? That sounds wrong to me.

And a condor italia (road bike)

I've had a road bike before (Condor Italia)

Evidently not.

*EDIT* I iz tooooo slow 😀

Rear cage is what takes up the slack. Sounds about right to me

The length of the rear mech cage is largely defined by the potential slack in the chain when shifting rings on the front.

Cross bikes are great, I've been leaving the roadie chaingang to do their same old thing while I get the miles in riding all the little roads and tracks they wouldn't touch. I especially love to plan a long road route to a bit of forest (Bedgebury recently) so I get my off road fix too. A ride like this goes much quicker for me an so much more satisfying. Ask some racing roadie about their long training rides and its seems like it's something they have to endure more than enjoy.

I see. I always thought it was the range of the rear cassette which defined rear mech cage size. Colour me enlightened.

Oh and the 'mtb' was actually a hybrid but don't let that get in the way of my gushing about cross bikes 😀

My crosscheck is fantastic. So versatile, been riding it in epping forest, fixed and on 28c's. What a laugh!

Good innit 😀
I'm using my crosser for everything since the season ended, perfectly capable of doing everything a MTB can do in XC guise.
Standard road compact would be better. The 34 would help on tougher terrain, and the 50 will be like switching into overdrive when you turn onto the tarmac.
Just building another crosser to save my good one for race day.

BTW I like your bike choice. You'll get a nice transition from one bike to another i.e Racey ST4-crosser-roadie.

Mines similar XTC-crosser-roadie.

Whats the weight of the Jake

Another vote for the Cross Check / Traveller's Check, really versatile and great fun with 29er tyres 🙂

22lb with pedals as weighed in lbs when I picked it up. That includes 4 reflectors and a bell 😉

Cross bikes rock. I used to do a 20 mile road ride to get to the off-road bits - a blast round Grizedale or similar then ride home. Great for commuting along towpaths etc, far faster than a mountain bike. Ideal on-road winter training bikes: better brakes and loads more mud clearance than traditional road bikes plus fatter tyres for any icy/potholed bits.

You'll find that it's only the *really* technical/rocky sections that they start to come unstuck, otherwise they're as capable as any decent hardtail.

Cross bikes are great but love my road bike as well...and my single speed rigid. But then there's the hardtail which is nice and quick although the full susser is great for the all dayers. The more you mix em up the more fun it is

Thats not bad Surfr I was looking at getting a Sportif
road bike and i do like the Jake nearly bought one a few
years back.

Another vote here!

Bought mine for the 3 Peaks initially (although I'd been doing 'cross on the HT before that).

Now I've got it, it get's used for all kinds of riding, from Weds nights full on off-road trying to keep up with 5in travel FS to keeping up with the local roadies on the tarmac

I'm intending on buying a jake the snake in a couple of months. Glad you like yours. Very much looking forward to getting mine.

The length of the rear mech cage is largely defined by the potential slack in the chain when shifting rings on the front.

You'll find that it's only the *really* technical/rocky sections that they start to come unstuck, otherwise they're as capable as any decent hardtail.

nonsence. Unless you are about to tell me my riding is deficient?

The length of the rear mech cage is largely defined by the potential slack in the chain when shifting rings on the front.

Amazing how I get away with a short cage mech on my roadie with a 50-34 chainset then!

On my 'spare' CX bike, I've a 36/46 chainset for race days, and a 34/50 chainset for poncing about off-road in the non-race season. Both work fine with a short-cage 105 rear mech. Don't even have to remove/add links to the chain (I just need to move the F mech up/down accordingly).

The length of the rear mech is about the total gear capacity eg for a 50/34 with a 12-28 cassette it's 14+16= 30 which would probably need a medium cage. This is further complicated by a long toad mech being the same as most medium cage mtb mechs.
[url] http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/derailers-rear.html [/url]

anyway, cx bikes are great. Fantastic at turning routes that would be boring on an mtb into good fun. I find them frustrating on proper mtb trails though as they just don't roll over rocks and roots very well.

aracer,I did say LARGELY, BTW, you may be within the capacity of the mech then, depending on which cassette you're using (and they will stretch a bit outside the stated tooth range)
However try using a triple for instance, and you'll find the chain going slack/tight near the extremes of the range.

2009 fixed wheel
2010 crosser

when do the marketing boys start to drip feed next years big thing then?

You'd be surprised at how far you can push a cross bike. Though if the forks are pointing backwards and the front wheel folds enough for it to fit in your pocket you've probably reached the limits. 😳

Are the wheels on the Kona standard i.e 32/32? I just ask because IME the 18 and 24 spoke wheels though great for racing can go when used on normal MTB trails. I was showing off in the play area in Woburn, one spoke went and and it buckled big time had to ride with the brake disconnected.

[i]nonsence. Unless you are about to tell me my riding is deficient? [/i]

cynic-al, I said they're as [b]capable[/b] as a decent HT. I did not say they were as fast or as indestructible. There's a big difference!
There's not a lot that you can't do on a CX bike - it might be slower in places, a bit less comfy in places but it'll still do it.

I've seen pics on here of people jumping them, riding them down steps, doing drop-offs etc.

So it's not as [b]capable [/b]at going fast, rider comfort etc?

I just thought it was a daft word to use as it's capable of wide interpretation.

You don't see folk at jump parks on crossers do you? DH courses? XC races? IF crossers were as capable as HTs you would.

are they not just tourers with faux knobbly tyres?

[i]So it's not as capable at going fast, rider comfort etc?[/i]

On most XC race courses in this country, a CX bike would leave a MTB standing. That's why they're banned!

SOOBalias - Member
are they not just tourers with faux knobbly tyres?

What is sold as a road bike these days is for racers and racer wannabes.

Chap riding the Kona on Sunday sure made the cross bike look fun to ride.
Certainly as capable as many riders on MTBs that I've witnessed! Singlespeed too.

[IMG] [/IMG]

On most XC race courses in this country, a CX bike would leave a MTB standing. That's why they're banned!

What is sold as a road bike these days is for racers and racer wannabes.

Oh FFS, get a grip!

[i]I just don't believe that. [/i]

The pic above is a good example - the Gorrick race courses. Two riders of equal ability, one on a HT, the other on a CX. The CX would win on that course.

cynic-al - Member
I just don't believe that.

latter

Oh and I only have experience of sxc courses, which I understand are a bit more gnarly than the southern softy stuff.

EDIT 😛

Yeah I'm not to sure about that myself. I've raced at some venues that host MTB and cross races, the courses are tailored depending on which dicipline is racing.
Too many constant bumps and knocks like raised roots ruin the flow when your on a crosser, whilst a fat tyre or suss forks keep it flowing.
Raced in one event and I was flying ahead on my crosser, then we came to some dense woodland, not only did I fall back because of the roots my rear wheel went.

Surely that's the point. Certain terrain favours certain bikes. But cross bikes are more than capable on some much rougher terrain than most people think. And they make up time on the smoother parts. The main worry I find is puncturing.
And on muddy, grassy fields they positively kill mountain bikes...

All the talk of cx bikes has brought back distance (ish) memories of my initial interest in offroad riding in the early 80's (don't worry I won't bore you with them!).

Building on the subject are there any good cyclocross sites/forums around?

[i]The pic above is a good example - the Gorrick race courses.[/i]

Swinley actually. But what's all the arguments about racing, who goes fastest and all that shit?
the Op said "Can't stop grinning" not "thinking of winning". WGAS which is fastest?

Not many Normal Man
I use the BC site and 'cowbell' on cxmagazine.com

Thanks I'll check them out.

For all those saying a CX bike is faster on some terrain, exactly what terrain is that and why?

Basically a cross bike will be faster on tracks which aren't rooty or rocky because the combination of small fast tyres, long low position, light weight, higher gearing, bigger wheels and no suspension come together to make fast. Just watch some of the Belgian world cup race clips on YouTube etc to see quite how fast they go.

I nearly bought the Kona, but decided to splash and went for a Condor Terra X instead. I hope is worth the extra money!

I will post piccies and review in 3 weeks time, when it arrives! Can't wait...

cynic-al - Member
latter

Oh and I only have experience of sxc courses, which I understand are a bit more gnarly than the southern softy stuff.

I think my cross bike is faster up to the point where the trail gets technical and a proper mountainbike is needed to do the job properly (except for the riding gods). But for people like me with crap technical skills, picking up a light cross bike and running with it may be a faster option anyway 🙂

I even considered doing this years 'Puffer on mine, but the greater likelihood of punctures put me off that idea.

How do you get on with the narrow bars on these things?
Personally I love the precision and leverage you can get off wide riser bars.

It's a whole different ball game in terms of handling IMO. No doubt you can learn to ride them well off-road, for me at least that would have take time...and inclination that I did not have!

Never really found it a problem. Skinny tyres pumped up hard, pinging off things are what takes up my attention 🙂

This was from the Pentlands:

[img] http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=yqlcfk&outx=683&quality=70 [/img]

[img] http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=yqlcfl&outx=800&quality=70 [/img]

[img] http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=yqnm97&outx=800&quality=70 [/img]

Made it much more fun since a relatively untechnical area became so much more interesting - as clubber says, skinny tyres, pinging off roots and blasting through the singletrack.

Basically a cross bike will be faster on tracks which aren't rooty or rocky because the combination of small fast tyres, long low position, light weight, higher gearing, bigger wheels and no suspension come together to make fast.

I'll note a few points for you:
Typical CX wheels and tyres are only 3% bigger in diameter than a 2.1" tyre on a MTB wheel. About the same difference a 2.3 makes.
Studies have shown that high pressure in narrow tyres off-road has more rolling resistance.
Weight makes no difference on the flat (it's also possible to build a hardtail lighter than most people's crossers - there's little between my FS and my crosser!)
You can lockout suspension when you don't need it and unlock where it makes you faster.

Also worth pointing out that when they've done comparative studies of speed between hardtails and FS everybody always thinks they're going faster on the hardtail because the extra impacts make it seem faster, even when the FS has actually been faster.

I have just put some cx tyres on my drop bar dr dew, it flippin rules! fast and fun, not as sketchy on tech stuff as I thought, totally different to my summer season, not better, just different!

[IMG] [/IMG]

How about, I've been riding cross bikes since 1995, I've also been riding mountain bikes since 1987. On some of the riding that I do, I have done it on mtbs (full suss, front suss and SS), cx bikes and MTB tandems. Each of them do different things better (or worse).
I can tell you categorically that on some things the CX bike is faster.
However, you're not going to believe me anyway, so I don't really care anymore.

I can tell you categorically that on some things the CX bike is faster.
However, you're not going to believe me anyway, so I don't really care anymore.

I have a CX bike and I agree it is faster for a limited range of conditions, it's just that those conditions don't tend to be mentioned on threads like this (I don't think anybody has so far on this thread).

What kind of pedals are you guys using? SPDs??

The cheapo SPDs (M550s?) which came with it. If I upgraded it would only be to 520s which I use on the ST4 too.

aracer, what do you want to know? I was racing a cross bike which is probably not much lighter than my lightest, fully rigid mountain bike. Unfortunately, that bike was taken away from me so I had to then race on my mountain bike. I was consistently about 10-15 places down from where I was, and I was completely dead at the end of races. Gearing was the same on the mountain bike.
I did run some 26" CX tyres on it, but found these didn't roll well enough so I put some bigger semi-slick tyres on. I felt the wheels still didn't roll as well, were smaller and heavier. I guess the position on the mountain bike didn't help although I had this as low as I could.

On each acceleration, I would lose slightly and it was just killing me hanging on the back of fast groups.

I was glad to get another cross bike..

Oh, aracer - where did I say it feels faster? I wrote that it was faster.
If I could be bothered I could go and dig out some Garmin data with average speeds, HR etc, for my typical rides which tend to be about 4-8 hours, but TBH I can't as I'm just surfacing every now and then from reviewing and commenting upon stair run off distances on a project.

aP
Possibly meeting up with some of my old roadie mates in the next few weeks, I'll mail you but we'll probably head out of NW London to Amersham way'ish.
Other than that see you at the 2010 CX races 🙂

I had a very similar experience to Traildog in the last CX race I did. It was a tight twisty rooty course with lots of singletrack, partly mud, partly frozen, and I was suffering from a dicky shoulder so I though I'd try riding the MTB for a change. I managed to hang on to my usual mid-pack placing for about a lap, then I shot out the back like excrement through a goose. I don't normally excel at racing, but that time I got completely schooled.

I've also heard people making similar comparisons between cross bikes and light racey MTBs before. Thing is, to get a XC race bike that would be as in the same weight bracket as a cross bike while still keeping the advantages of suspension, you'd need to spend a lot more than the £6-700 you can get a decent beginner cross bike for. You wouldn't want to tour or commute on a blinged-out MTB either. Cross bikes win on the versatility front, every time. 🙂

Based on riding the HONC a few times on my CX bike (and other years on my mtb), it's noticeable where you're suddenly much quicker than mtbs that you were riding about the same pace as before.

Specifically fireroad type trails when climbing and grass in all conditions up, down and flat.

I have my CX bike set up with the bars, saddle, cleats, the whole position, set up similarly to my hardtail, and there's no mistaking that on most surfaces it kicks the MTBs bottom. I've yet to conduct a scientific trial of why exactly, but I dont worry about it, I just ride and accept it!

Made it much more fun since a relatively untechnical area became so much more interesting - as clubber says, skinny tyres, pinging off roots and blasting through the singletrack.

And many technical trails would be, I suspect, unrideable, or at least a lot slower.

[b]Yes, but why do you think those aspects make it fast?[/b]

For the same reasons a road bike is faster than an MTB on-road. Maybe there's not enough "Mountain" in yer' typical XC course/in the South to call upon the supposed advantages of a "Mountain Bike"...

many technical trails would be, I suspect, unrideable

That's when you pick it up and carry it, doye. 😉

cynic-al, that could be turned round the other way as well; On a typical mountainbike many less technial offroad distance routes would be 'absolute purgatory or, I suspect, at least a lot slower'
.
For me the few minutes that I might lose on certain downhills, or techy sections, are more than made up with by the speed elsewhere.

Exactly Mr Agreeable. That's the 'cross' bit. The cross in CX has a different meaning to the cross in xc, or am I drunk.

[i]Cross bikes win on the versatility front, every time. [/i]

Mr Agreeable has it in one. Sure there are situations where a MTB is going to be "better" (faster, easier to ride, whatever your definition of better might be) but there are also situations where a CX will be "better" (same definition).

I could do 20 road miles on mine out to an off-road area (trail centre or similar), do a lap of that and ride 20 miles home again without being completely dead. Try doing that on an MTB - you wouldn't, you'd just drive out to the trail centre.

Out of interest, Ive had my cross bike round Glentress black, and didnt find it bad, the climbs (with a non-purist wide ratio cassette :oops:) seemed easier in fact.
I've also had it on a few routes such as Glen Tilt, and the MTBers I was with were getting a bit annoyed at me pulling away all the time (trust me, this wasn't down to fitness)
BTW, oldgit, pished at this time of the day? I am liking your style 🙂

That's like the mixed bike event I did. For a while I was well up on guys I KNOW are quicker. Then we hit this section, like a mini Mangrove swamp and I just fell right back. It's the one thing you just can't do on a crosser, constantly having to hop stuff and stay fast. The guys on MTB's were just cruising through.
What crazy legs hinted at up there is how I train over winter, road/off road/road.

Yes, but why do you think those aspects make it fast? Out of those things you expend power on in cycling, which are you now expending less power on?

I'll note a few points for you:
Typical CX wheels and tyres are only 3% bigger in diameter than a 2.1" tyre on a MTB wheel. About the same difference a 2.3 makes.
Studies have shown that high pressure in narrow tyres off-road has more rolling resistance.
Weight makes no difference on the flat (it's also possible to build a hardtail lighter than most people's crossers - there's little between my FS and my crosser!)
You can lockout suspension when you don't need it and unlock where it makes you faster.

Also worth pointing out that when they've done comparative studies of speed between hardtails and FS everybody always thinks they're going faster on the hardtail because the extra impacts make it seem faster, even when the FS has actually been faster.

High volume, lowish pressure bald tyre (well worn RR for instance) is much faster on easy forestry track type stuff than a rock hard CX tyre IME. Much comfier too. Ive got a pair of Vittoria 32c, used once 😉 going cheap if anyone is interested.

That said, I do enjoy taking my old road bike with cow horns and touring tyres off road for all the reason people have mentioned above. It's [i]meant[/i] to be fun remember.

Bedmaker, I generally run my CX tyres at less than 50psi, thats not rock hard is it?
If a lightweight FS bike is so efficient, then how come they dont get used in races like Paris-Roubaix?

This isn't going anywhere is it. There are exceptions, but in general cross bikes are quicker in cross races and MTB's are quicker in XC races.
Put both types of bike in everyday non race situations and there isn't a lot in it.

Bedmaker. I remember a test being carried out at Sandwell park (the old MM venue) some class riders went out and did some laps on hardtails, then went out on short travel sussers (possibly NRS's or Sugars) they all said their first laps on the hardtails were quicker, but they weren't they were quicker on the sussers.

They did once. How it faired I don't know, clues probably in the word 'once'
[img] [/img]

Oldgit, I think that one broke halfway round.

My own feeling is that its the weight distibution/ ride position and drop bars of crossers that makes them faster, not the tyre or wheel size.