[Closed] Cyclists going through red lights ?

If everyone blindly follows a silly rule, no one will ever know its a silly rule.

do people actually do it for such altruistic reasons as changing the law? or do they do it for selfish reasons?

A green bike light on a toucan is for people CROSSING the road. If you’re riding along the road then the red traffic light still applies.

So riding over on the toucan is bang out of order then? What's the purpose of the green cycle sign - you can wheel your bike over or something? As you obv can't cycle on the pavement it seems like it would be odd to cater for that [there's a cycle lane on this particular junction but it's on the road].

please think about the above and whether your convenience and adding a few minutes to your journey is really worth it.

This argument would have some sense to it apart from the minor detail that as others have pointed out car drivers break the rules left, right and centre. Many are so badly informed that they dont even understand what an amber light means.

As such the actions of any particular cyclist, or even large number of cyclists, is meaningless when it comes to these idiots. They would just invent cyclists doing wrong either by simply making stuff up or claiming that legal behaviour is wrong. The obvious example being riding in primary.

 Round Manchester it seems like it’s red + 2 cars on each change.

I'm very careful stopping at just-changed red lights for that very reason. Can pretty much guarantee that a least one driver (quite often 2 or 3 ) behind me, on seeing it flick from green to amber will actually floor it rather than slowing.

Astonishingly this never happens at the one set of lights with cameras on it. Amazing coincidence.

And yes, I operate on the principle that traffic lights are merely guidance for me and a useful indication of what most other road users might do.

This argument would have some sense to it apart from the minor detail that as others have pointed out car drivers break the rules left, right and centre. Many are so badly informed that they dont even understand what an amber light means.

Isn't this what we refer to as whataboutery.  "But they break the rules far more than we do, go after them, why should we stop?"

There be dragons, I think..

This argument would have some sense to it apart from the minor detail that as others have pointed out car drivers break the rules left, right and centre. Many are so badly informed that they dont even understand what an amber light means.

Which is one of the reasons I don't want to be in the middle of a junction at the wrong time, a little self preservation....

Latest one was again Manchester, coming up to what looked like a pedestrian crossing, was turning Amber but thought I was fine, realised it was instead a long box junction so stopped hard, the BMW behind me must have shat himself by the look he had as he cam around me on the now red light to turn left past me 🙁

Tassie had the right idea where you could ride on the pavement/crossings so you could cross a junction with the pedestrian lights and get off again. I think some of the problems here are now on the junctions that stop all 4 lanes of a cross roads for pedestrians to go at the same time, perfect time to sneak over

Isn’t this what we refer to as whataboutery.

Nope that would be if I said what about the horse riders or scooter riders etc.

Instead what I am specifically commenting on is that those ranting about cyclists breaking laws are, in my experience, equally and possibly more prone to breaking the same laws. So its not that the laws are being broken which is their concern it is just a handy, although hypocritical, stick to attack cyclists with. Remove that stick and they would just find another.

Next time you see someone ranting about cyclists ask them about the "war on motorists". My money will be that they will think the poor motorist is being persecuted by being expected to occasionally drive according to the speed limit and not be chatting away on their mobile.

I get your point, but I'm not sure it is a legitimate justification for running red lights, just an excuse.

And why give them such an obvious stick to beat cyclists with? Riding primary could be justified to drivers, whereas running red lights couldn't be.

do people actually do it for such altruistic reasons as changing the law? or do they do it for selfish reasons?

Selfish, still doesn't negate the point though. One individual breaking the rule isn't going to do much on it's own, lots might get the point across.

If you are a cyclist and run red lights, please be aware that your selfish actions are impacting others as it aggravates drivers who take out their frustrations on cyclists either verbally or through their aggressive driving.

Rubbish. The drivers that behave like that are going to do it anyway. They might try and justify their behaviour by blaming red light jumping cyclists, but in reality they don't give a toss about other people's safety. They just don't want to see cyclists on the road.

I think jumping red lights is a bad idea. If you look at the road traffic stats, the overwhelming majority of incidents caused by ignoring traffic signals are caused by motorists. I think it makes sense to concentrate on the biggest source of danger first.

Seriously. What gives with that?

Try Leeds/Bradford. Stop on a red light, and cars will flash you, mount the pavement, and go around you. But, of course, they don't "give all drivers a bad name", do they.

As it happens, there are plenty of junctions, designed purely for cars/buses/lorrys, where a cyclist would be wise to go through on a red light… where obeying the lights, and trying to move with the traffic, increases your risk of ending up under a lorry… let's not discuss that though.

Riding primary could be justified to drivers, whereas running red lights couldn’t be.

Actually it can be. Incorrectly set lights as mentioned by others. Which is the only time I will routinely run a red light. It the authorities cant be arsed making the lights usable by me then I consider them optional.

The other is for safety reasons. There is a good reason why Paris, Brussels etc allow cyclists to go through red lights under certain conditions. The UK authorities semi acknowledge this with the advanced stop zones but then fail to enforce them properly making them pointless. Not something I have done recently but if I have an artic come up beside me indicating it wants to turn through me then I am getting out of the danger zone by legal means or not.

Also have you ever tried explaining primary to some of those mouth breathers? The sort of people ranting about how cyclists believe they are morally superior whilst doing exactly that themselves by claiming the reason they object to cyclists is their rule breaking.

Run red lights. You're a hole at the back . If the lights don't work for you I assume that after about 2 experiences you tell the authorities.  Maybe just wait just as you like cars to wait to overtake in a safe place.

Comparison with cars is stupid. So what? Thats just saying that your crime is less bad than theirs. Crime is crime.

Typical modern Britain. " I want my way and stuff the rest of you"

Incorrectly set lights as mentioned by others. Which is the only time I will routinely run a red light.

Genuine question - what is it about the setting of the lights that makes them unsuitable specifically for cyclists? Is it the cycle it too short to get across it? Can't envisage another issue. Maybe I'm not thinking hard enough.

Also, those that say other countries allow left turn at red lights so right turn should be allowed so they do it anyway. Do you do it in cars too? If not, why not?

If the lights don’t work for you I assume that after about 2 experiences you tell the authorities.

I've done that for some lights that are there to stop traffic and allow buses to rejoin the main carriageway from the bus lane.  The council replied to say it was hard to make lights that recognise cyclists and buses due to the size difference, so they wouldn't be doing anything to change it.

Convert: some lights only give you a green when the induction loops detect a vehicle, they are often not sensitive enough to detect a bike. I've had the same problem with temporary traffic lights fitted with above--ground sensors.

I don't do it other than occasionally setting off just before it turns green to stop the left turn overtaking but it doesn't really bother me. No real harm done and as mentioned perfectly legal in other countries so not inherently unsafe. Yes some motorists use it as a stick to beat cyclists but if no one ever did it they'd just use something else; not wearing a helmet or high viz, not using a cycle path, riding in the primary position, etc. There's probably a 1000 other, more dangerous things that are routinely ignored,, not sure why this one (and cycling on the pavement) generate so much anger

Rubbish. The drivers that behave like that are going to do it anyway. They might try and justify their behaviour by blaming red light jumping cyclists, but in reality they don’t give a toss about other people’s safety. They just don’t want to see cyclists on the road.

Exactly.  There are no red lights, no crossings and pretty much no junctions where I live yet a lot of the drivers are complete ****ers who would rather risk knocking you off your bike that being held up for 20 seconds.

I don't care much. I care just enough to type this though. I have no problem with other cyclists or myself going through red lights so long as they do so carefully. If you get worked up over such a trivial matter, how do you cope with major issues such as being served a casserole with pastry lid when you ordered a "pie"?

Convert: some lights only give you a green when the induction loops detect a vehicle, they are often not sensitive enough to detect a bike. I’ve had the same problem with temporary traffic lights fitted with above–ground sensors.

Ah, I see - I thought it was reference to the sequence or timing not just the age old issue of not being sensed by the lights. It's my perception that this is much better that years ago and the technology has improved.

But really I think most of the rlj that annoys people is not this - it's busy junctions with traffic already queuing and cyclist riding straight past and through the light and weaving their way through traffic going perpendicularly to them. I used to see a lad pretty much every day doing this who was either really bad at it or just didn't care as his safe passage across was not down to canny timing but cars and lorries legitimately going across from another direction pulling up to avoid him and let him through. Completely impervious to being beeped and sworn at. Then he disappeared never to be seen again. No idea if he moved or ended up under a lorry.

Induction loops are not always sensitive enough to detect cyclists,  therefore the junction control system is not aware that a cyclist is trying to use the junction and will therfore not trigger the phase at which the lights change to allow them to exit the junction.

At the times when I use these junctions on my commutes , there are no other cars to trigger my phase, and the road I join is quiet enough to filter in to.

Even if there were cars trying to join at the same phase as me , on one junction that I use , the induction loop is sufficiently close to the stop line that when I am stopped on the bike, it would not be able to sense the car waiting behind me so we would both be there indefinitely.

All other red lights I stop at .

I tend to believe that if you don’t follow the rules of the road, you’re not going to get any favours from other road users. It’s human nature, the vehicle is irrelevant.

I have an issue with this sentiment. The 'rules of the road', for most part, were put in place to address the risks associated with motor vehicles.

There is so much made of how cyclists should be following rules (in many cases fictional ones), the whole 'road tax' thing... (and let's face it, if we're following the rules of the road, why shouldn't VED, registration plates, insurance, and all the rest of it apply to us?)

At the end of the day, riding a bicycle is an incredibly simple thing. We have way more in common with pedestrians than anything else on the road. And no one moans when they cross before the green man (effectively jumping a red light), because they're just people walking about. They don't pose any serious threat to people, just like for the most part cyclists don't.

Of course, there needs to be some common courtesy, but I think that is something long dead for many in a world that has been replaced by rules. People have forgotten how to think for themselves and act considerately in situations when they should, because they prefer a definitive line where they can be right and express their righteousness with real vigour. That has become more important than just not being a dick.

The psychology of all this goes a lot deeper than just following the 'rules of the road', and I would argue that this thinking does a lot more harm than good.

I stop at red lights btw.

If you are a cyclist and run red lights, please be aware that your selfish actions are impacting others as it aggravates drivers who take out their frustrations on cyclists either verbally or through their aggressive driving.

I agree with this. Cyclists running red lights and generally ignoring the rules of the road (perpetrated by a few) is a huge generalisation applied to cyclists by other road users, and seemingly the basis of a lot of vitriol we get from drivers. I tend to see cyclists running red lights as letting the side down.

Interestingly I've tended to have a bit of an attitude problem out on the road when dangerous driving impacts on me and I've had a tendency to respond. I've started reading Cyclecraft to try and calm myself down and came across the following quote, which I'm going to try and hold on to:

"... don't retaliate with abuse of a siren; you may cause greater trouble for the next cyclist the driver meets".

Cyclists seem to be at the very bottom of the heap when it comes to road user (and are actively hated by some drivers); if this is ever going to change then we need, as a group, to cycle responsibly and legally (irrespective of the perceived silliness of the rules it's still fuel for the aniti-cycling brigade) for the benefit of cycling and fellow cyclist in general (and I can still be an idiot on occasion).

It's the ultimate deceit by cyclists, especially by those who whine that drivers don't pay them any respect. If you want to be treated as a legitimate road user, then behave like one and don't hack off car drivers by openly breaking the law right under their noses. By cycling through a red light a cyclist throws away any moral superiority because (s)he has just flouted the conventions that we all agree to follow to keep ourselves and others safe.

Selfish, still doesn’t negate the point though. One individual breaking the rule isn’t going to do much on it’s own, lots might get the point across

Not really. Just because you might think a rule is silly, nine times out of ten they are there for very good reasons. The fact you don't know those reasons or can't be bothered to find out doesn't make the intent of the rule any less valid. Having the odd one ignorant cyclist/road user ignore a red light every now and again and getting away with it, doesn't follow that if the rule was removed and everyone did it en-mass you'd get the same result. In fact you'd have chaos. Ever been to India? that is a fantastic example of what happens when you get thousands of individuals picking and choosing what rules they are going to break for their own selfish ends...the result is utter chaos, total gridlock, and appalling safety.

The road network is a system and believe it or not the traffic signals and the intent of the rules are there to enable the traffic to flow as easily and slickly as possible. It doesn't' just take into account that one junction, but the traffic flow through an entire area. We all know that if you address the pinch point at one junction to ease traffic, mostly you're just shifting where that pinch point happens.

Just follow the rules. is it really that hard? It makes naff all difference to your journey time, means other road users have a nice predictable situation/model to deal with, and ultimately maximises the capacity of our overcrowded road network and means more people get to their destination as quickly and safely as possible.

every morning when I listen to the traffic news I'm always thinking that all the mayhem and sometimes ruined lives would be solved if a handful of cyclists stopped running the odd red light

I wait at traffic lights, of course.  If impatient or there is (more often than not) an oblivious **** in a car or van blocking the ASL then I dismount and walk, pushing bike before remounting

Don't see enough other cyclists at lights or elsewhere hereabouts to have noted their customary behaviour.

If anyone would care to read RNPR Traffic Note 8 Proportion of Cyclists Who Violate Red Lights in London, please do, I am very proud of my contribution to it  (not really I was 25 at the time and it bored me to tears)..   it's nearly 11 years old though. Jesus times flies when you are waiting at red lights

• The majority of cyclists (84%) obey red traffic lights.
• Violation is not endemic, but 1 in 6 (16%) of cyclists do jump a red light, and at
this level may encourage more to do so in the future.
• A much greater number of men cycle during the morning and evening peaks.
When a comparison is made of the behaviour of male and female cyclists it
can be concluded that men are slightly more likely to violate red lights (17%
compared to 13%).
• In general cyclists who ride through red lights are more likely to do so whilst
travelling straight ahead at a junction. They are least likely to do so when
turning right.
• Red light violations are most common by cyclists travelling towards central
London in the morning, and away from central London in the evening.

i personally never did it (except for one set on royal college street in Camden), as others have said it gives more fuel to the general cyclists hatred thing.   However advanced signals for cyclists are coming in and that will help with it a fair bit i think.

Cyclists seem to be at the very bottom of the heap when it comes to road user (and are actively hated by some drivers); if this is ever going to change then we need, as a group, to cycle responsibly and legally (irrespective of the perceived silliness of the rules it’s still fuel for the aniti-cycling brigade) for the benefit of cycling and fellow cyclist in general (and I can still be an idiot on occasion).

You think if every cyclist ("person on a bike") suddenly started cycling entirely completely legally - not on the pavement, never jumped a light, always indicated, had correct pedal reflectors - that suddenly every motorist would show more respect?!

Because that's total utter bollocks.

In fact there's a lot of evidence from various cities that allowing (or turning a blind eye) to cyclists breaking the law actually makes traffic flow vastly better.

http://road.cc/content/news/160118-san-francisco-cyclists-protest-obeying-traffic-rules

When it comes down to it, if you're not going to abide by the laws of the road, you don't really have any right to moan about others breaking the law, regardless of what vehicle they happen to be in/on.

It’s the ultimate deceit by cyclists

All of them, yeah? 🙄

You think if every cyclist (“person on a bike”) suddenly started cycling entirely completely legally – not on the pavement, never jumped a light, always indicated, had correct pedal reflectors – that suddenly every motorist would show more respect?!

Because that’s total utter bollocks.

I also agree with this, we wouldn't get respect straight away. But we'd always have the higher ground and therefore smug factor!

Violation is not endemic, but 1 in 6 (16%) of cyclists do jump a red light

cf. "one in four (24 per cent) of motorists admit to having driven through a red light in the past 12 months — equivalent to 9.3 million motorists" (source)

also, if you want more interesting reading about behavioural change, this is very good

http://www.copenhagenize.com/2009/11/behaviour-is-tricky-subject-and-getting.html

"Generally, bad behaviour is a sign that cyclists don't have adequate infrastructure. Increasing cycling's infrastructure and profile is a good way to calm the traffic in more ways than one.

On the question of 'bad' behaviour, it exists although it's rather dull. When you have so many regular citizens on bicycles, the infractions are hardly provocative. Still, we see letters to the editors by older citizens complaining about 'those cyclists' rolling casually across pedestrian crossings or turning right on a red light, which is not allowed in Denmark - for cars or cyclists. Buy hey. Arrest me. I turn right on red if there are no pedestrians."

By cycling through a red light a cyclist throws away any moral superiority

Sorry. I wasnt aware that cycling was about moral superiority. I thought it was a means of transportation and entertainment. Isnt religion, veganism or (more effectively) charitable work what is normally used to get a sense of moral superiority.

The only people I see going on about cyclists being "morally superior" are those mouthbreathers complaining about how cyclists are lawbreakers. Showing a nice sense of moral superiority themselves since it implies they are nicely law abiding.

Nailed

My view is that many urban bike riders see themselves as pedestrians on bikes. They treat red lights as a pedestrian would. I.e. You can ignore it if you wish and cross having made your own choice. Red lights are for things with engines.

Never thought of it like this but that does make sense of some of the behaviours in an urban environment.

Personally, I don't jump them as I think people who ride bikes get a bad enough name as it is without playing to stereotypes.

Stop at red lights – unless I can see it’s clear to go through.

Much the same as when I’m in a car.

Seems pointless waiting to give traffic coming opposite direction the right of way – if there is no traffic there.

No need for traffic lights if we all take that view

Seeing more and more of this , what’s your thoughts on it ?

Unless you include your location then such a statement is meaningless. My experience is that in London, it's common. In other cities, it happens and pretty much everywhere else, it's non-existent.

Living here in semi-rural West Yorkshire, I can't remember the last time I saw a cyclist blatantly jump a red light - it just doesn't seem to happen that often. A big difference here is that there is a massive club cycling scene, but perhaps less of the "road warrior" types that you would see in London, so the culture is different. That's not to say that there aren't other friction points between cyclists and motorists, but red lights aren't one of them.

If anyone would care to read RNPR Traffic Note 8 Proportion of Cyclists Who Violate Red Lights in London, please do, I am very proud of my contribution to it  (not really I was 25 at the time and it bored me to tears)..   it’s nearly 11 years old though. Jesus times flies when you are waiting at red lights

CONTENT.TFL.GOV.UK "http://content.tfl.gov.uk/traffic-note-8-cycling-red-lights.pdf"