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I'm a basic rate taxpayer and I'm looking at getting an EV on the salary sacrifice offered by my employer. The car, an Omodo E5 Noble is £355 PCM after tax relief and includes insurance, servicing, tyres, breakdown and redundancy/resignation cover. The best price I've found for the same car on the same deal works out at £393 with insurance, but not any of the other things offered on the salary sac scheme, and amortising the 12 month downpayment to 36 payments for comparison purposes.
Gotta love STW, a conversation about C2W has essentially evolved (or devolved?) into a salary sacrifice lease cars, Tax and NI dodging ****fest… 🤔
Top work fellas.
In the midst of which the discussion of C2W as an item of ideological purity predictably climbed up its own absurd fundament.
reducing the total spend allowable & trying to bring it back to providing financial assistance for commuters rather than for high-end non-commuter bikes.
I see zero problem with this.
I can't play the violin, but if I could I wouldn't bother playing it.
Gotta love STW, a conversation about C2W has essentially evolved (or devolved?) into a salary sacrifice lease cars, Tax and NI dodging ****fest…
Top work fellas.
Classic "distract the plebs" this IMO.
This is why you generally can’t “top up” cycle to work schemes as it would blur the lines of who would own it.
This is true in theory, but rarely enforced IMHO. I think I've topped up four of the last five vouchers I got.
For this to change with a scheme with a reduced cap the way the scheme was structured would have to be fundamentally changed.
Or ignored
This is why you generally can’t “top up” cycle to work schemes as it would blur the lines of who would own it. For this to change with a scheme with a reduced cap the way the scheme was structured would have to be fundamentally changed.
Get me - at the end of an STW thread, I've actually changed my mind!
i did have a thing for the VAT removal from utility bikes but....I can see the argument that the prices would float up again (are helmets cheaper now 10-15 years on from VAT was removed from them - not so sure) and that doesn't help with the loan/monthly repayments part of it which will help the less well off especially.
My new proposal - change the scheme in 4 ways...
- Scrap the 'to work' element - make it any bike for any reason or components to keep an existing bikes on the road/dirt.
- Find a way (no idea how - not my bag - can't believe it can't be fudged) to allow a legitimate top up if you want to. The final value bit would need a bit of thinking about.
- The salary sacrifice/tax saving element has got a hard limit of say £1500 - roughly enough to balance for inflation from when the scheme started. Mean or smaller businesses might expect you to come up the rest of the top up up front - others might lend you the money at whatever rate they fancy. Regardless, the salary sacrifice element has got an upper limit.
- Employers of those on close to minimum wage should be encouraged to do the maths and allow as much possible to go through on salary sacrifice and the rest to be topped up on an interest free loan on otherwise similar terms.
High rate tax payers will still benefit more and that's always the bit that's pissed me off. Now though - **** it. High rate tax payers can already load their pension at more favourable rates with the same income instead and .....is this so very different? And by putting a hard limit on the salary sacrifice element the tax "personal re-purposing" on a £10K enduro ebike for a high earner won't be quite so disgusting so I think I can live with it. But £1500 should get a good commute bike, but if you must commute with Di2 Ultergra you can, it'll just be on your own dime.
The fraction of >£2k bikes actually used for communing has got to be fairly small
Let me guess, you don’t commute by bike, so haven’t noticed that many people use a nice bike to commute on?
Every day, and being a bike nerd I pay attention to the bikes in the bike shed a work. Normally a hundred or so bikes in the sheds and good security means in summer there will be the odd very nice bike. However, of the regulars there are two newish bikes that are over £2k other than mine.
I have colleagues that have decent do it all commute and leisure bikes that they bought on the scheme for much less than £2k. One even an e-bike (for less than £1k because if you aren’t already into cycling that feels like a lot for a bike) despite those being allegedly impossible to buy under the mooted £2k limit!
The “but you get it back in the vitality of the bike industry” argument doesn’t hold water. If you apply that logic to everything the government has no revenue at all. It is the kind of argument used to keep the joke that is low tax salary sacrifice cars allowed though!
£1500 won’t buy an electric Brompton. I commute on a T-line bought on C2W. I get a significant discount as a higher rate tax payer. The bike is almost solely used for commuting and is my most expensive (new and complete) bike. Had the C2W not been in place I’d still have bought a new Brompton, but it would have been a lot cheaper. I see the odd cargo bike with child seats on it at work. Those would easily exceed the £1500. I also see some nice road bikes too.
£1500 won’t buy an electric Brompton
Doesn't need to. If you could legitimately add to the £1500 limit to buy what you want, top it up to your heart's content. You just only get the tax incentive on the first £1500. I say £1500 - could be the old £1K or a higher £2K. But not bazillions.
Premise being you make the scheme sustainable, more equitable and not so open to hugely expensive bikes being subsidised. The priority of the scheme should be to get people riding. If you want to do it on something a bit posher, knock yourself out. As a high rate taxpayer, you 'should' be able to top it up out of your own pocket if it means enough to you. If not, you could 'slum it' on the same £1500 'cheap' bike as the lad in the post room, safe in the knowledge you paid less for it than he did.
The “but you get it back in the vitality of the bike industry” argument doesn’t hold water. If you apply that logic to everything the government has no revenue at all.
Well, I know I'm biased, but as I see it, cycling benefits the country in reducing congestion, improving health, and reducing emissions. All three of which are high agenda items. I can't think of anything else that is as far ranging.
Let me guess, you don’t commute by bike, so haven’t noticed that many people use a nice bike to commute on?
I don't know what kind of office you work in, but at my place there are usually about 50 bikes in the sheds. The vast majority are pretty bog standard hybrids and road bikes. Of the £2k+ bikes, all are ebikes except one Cannondale Topstone.
(My favourite is the mid-90s Kona Kilauea, but it's in a fairly bad way these days)
i did have a thing for the VAT removal from utility bikes but....I can see the argument that the prices would float up again
I'm not sure they would though. Cargo bikes (especially electric ones) 'look' expensive on the shop floor, and people are savvy shoppers. Especially if it was some form of capped subsidy (i.e. given as a £200 subsidy on a >£1k utility bike, or £600 on a cargo bike costing >£3k as long as they met the criteria).
Well, I know I'm biased, but as I see it, cycling benefits the country in reducing congestion, improving health, and reducing emissions. All three of which are high agenda items. I can't think of anything else that is as far ranging.
Yes, but the problem (perceived or real) is that these aren't "cycle to work" bikes. Someone driving to Hebden or Peaslake to ride their C2W dandyhorse isn't reducing congestion, and you'd probably get a better ROI on abolishing VAT on 5-a-side pitches, running shoes or gym memberships than a £2k discount on a Kenevo.
Even subsidising public transport has a potentially large impact on fitness, someone opined the other day that getting their 10,000 steps in each day only seemed possible in London.
i did have a thing for the VAT removal from utility bikes but....I can see the argument that the prices would float up again
I'm not sure they would though. Cargo bikes (especially electric ones) 'look' expensive on the shop floor, and people are savvy shoppers. Especially if it was some form of capped subsidy (i.e. given as a £200 subsidy on a >£1k utility bike, or £600 on a cargo bike costing >£3k as long as they met the criteria).
Theres good evidence from previous vat exemptions that little if any goes to the consumer. First the tampon tax, second a large VAT reduction on restaurant meals in france.
https://www.tips-and-advice.co.uk/blog-vat-on-sanitary-products
https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/pol.20170504
Unpopular opinion: why restrict it? With the state of the countries health, surely anything which gets people off their sofas and outdoors has to be a good thing!
Gotta love STW, a conversation about C2W has essentially evolved (or devolved?) into a salary sacrifice lease cars, Tax and NI dodging ****fest…
Top work fellas.
The government are proposing a cap on all sal-sac schemes - C2W, cars, pensions, and childcare.
The vast majority of bikes bought through the scheme at my work are done so not because of the savings but because they can pay them off monthly without any of the usual checks and independent or credit firm would normally do.
I'd planned to get a new bike via C2W scheme next year, but the threat of the new cap and potential immediately coming into effect has knee jerked me into an order of a new bike, wheelset, cassette and chain, what a lovely early xmas present.
Whilst I agree all tax should be fair, singling out C2W over the other schemes which can benefit from Salary sacrifice seems a bad move, probably go down well with non cyclists, but not well with me as a cyclist.
The government are proposing a cap on all sal-sac schemes - C2W, cars, pensions, and childcare.
Good job I got my C2W bike a couple of weeks ago!
I am going to need a replacement car very soon, currently working out whether to go for sal-sac on that (which is basically dead money, do I really need a new car?!) or just buy a secondhand car outright (the downside being that I don't have that amount of spare cash).
Maybe there are other options like renting a car as and when I actually need it... 🤔
because somebody who spends £4k on a nice bike was pretty much always going to ride a bike. Going for a ride on a £1k bike is just as good for health and wellbeing as a £4k bike. It is a very poor return for the lost tax revenue.Unpopular opinion: why restrict it? With the state of the countries health, surely anything which gets people off their sofas and outdoors has to be a good thing!
It would be hilarious now if nothing was changed in the budget next week. Given that the scheme, and especially the ease with which it can be abused have been so well publicised recently.
I bet loads of people have come around to a "everyone else is doing it, I'm a mug of I don't too" mentality over the last few weeks.
Stupid situation all round.
It would be hilarious now if nothing was changed in the budget next week.
Even if it is, any changes won't kick in until the next financial year. I predict a mass rush of C2W applications! 😅
It would be hilarious now if nothing was changed in the budget next week. Given that the scheme, and especially the ease with which it can be abused have been so well publicised recently.
I bet loads of people have come around to a "everyone else is doing it, I'm a mug of I don't too" mentality over the last few weeks.
Stupid situation all round.
Exactly this, I bought a Santa Cruz Branson earlier this year on a great deal and my employer didn’t have a C2W scheme. I was happy with the bike but eBike curious and could help but wonder if I should have taken the plunge. I’m time poor, have a young family and not a lot of trails close by… maybe an eBike would make some boring clay-mud XC riding a bit more fun AND allow me to ride local trails with a bit more intensity
I’ve moved job and my current employer offers a decent C2W voucher, it feels silly not to at the level of discount I can get.
It would be hilarious now if nothing was changed in the budget next week.
Even if it is, any changes won't kick in until the next financial year. I predict a mass rush of C2W applications! 😅
I recall when I was purchasing my first home, the change to stamp duty in the autumn budget of 17 or 18 came into effect days later, not April.
because somebody who spends £4k on a nice bike was pretty much always going to ride a bike. Going for a ride on a £1k bike is just as good for health and wellbeing as a £4k bike. It is a very poor return for the lost tax revenue.Unpopular opinion: why restrict it? With the state of the countries health, surely anything which gets people off their sofas and outdoors has to be a good thing!
I don’t agree. I know people who have bought cargo bikes and now used them loads on the school run on the way to work. They had seen my GSD and commented that they would love one but there are too expensive. Then our scheme upped the price and they bought the bikes. They now cycle not drive and have cut out lots of car use. They wouldn’t have done it without the scheme.
Gowerboy, yeah, that's fair, my comment was aimed at normal bikes rather than cargo bikes or ebikes where £1k really won't go very far.
Has the bike industry been lobbying government?
Any other industry would be knocking on the door of government to suggest why it should be allowed to continue
Has the bike industry been lobbying government?
Any other industry would be knocking on the door of government to suggest why it should be allowed to continue
There have been a fair few articles about it in various cycling magazines and websites, I imagine some of them have made it to Government level. Cycling UK and Walk Wheel Cycle Trust (formerly Sustrans) may have some more info on it in terms of their official response.
I know people who have bought cargo bikes and now used them loads on the school run on the way to work
My old local bike shop/workshop in Stockholm were actively pushing cargo bikes for specifically this purpose. Ok, it was a posh part of town, but their messaging was that, despite the bikes being expensive, by the time you have paid for parking or a garage in the area, the bike was the waaaaay cheaper option for taking the kids to school, shopping, getting about.
They are 100% right in this and, honestly, if I had kids and was still in town, I'd be doing the same thing. Traffic was a nightmare at the best of times and the cycle infrastructure was good enough to support Livelos and other cargobikes.
No mention of Cycle to Work in Rachel Reeves' Budget despite reports spending cap would be introduced
No mention, but have they actually published the documents yet. It is whether they didn't mention it, or have decided not to go ahead with the change.
but have they actually published the documents yet.
It's difficult to tell, what with the sheer amount of shite that's been leaked, retracted, hinted at and speculated upon.
But yes, it does seem we can all go out and get tax-free £4000 bikes to go and ride in the Surrey Hills. What a relief!
I suspect they just didn't have the bandwidth to fit it in after all, with all the other chopping and changing and drama.
It just shows how damaging all the kite flying does to the economy - people and businesses worrying about changes and perhaps even taking what are proved unnecessary actions or simply doing nothing all because of government kite flying or, given the febrile atmosphere, third parties trying to stir it up. And all for no change at all. We’re governed by incompetents.
I suspect they just didn't have the bandwidth to fit it in after all, with all the other chopping and changing and drama.
"Bread and Circuses" innit...
The headline for salary sacrifice is the £2K NI Pension Cap (IMO), but at least you can spunk loadsa money at an eeeb.
It just shows how damaging all the kite flying does to the economy - people and businesses worrying about changes and perhaps even taking what are proved unnecessary actions or simply doing nothing all because of government kite flying or, given the febrile atmosphere, third parties trying to stir it up. And all for no change at all. We’re governed by incompetents.
The other option is to hide away and come up with a load of ideas in isolation that might work in the common room but don't survive exposure to people who have a vested interest. Frinstance does cycle salary sacrifice on bikes "cost" the treasury a significant amount of money each year vs does the Cycle to work scheme prop up the UK bike industry and support a load of jobs?
I don't envy them the task of coming up with a budget to please everyone annoy the least amount of people
I don't envy them the task of coming up with a budget to please everyone annoy the least amount of people
Even your change wasn't right - it should have been "appeal the people that might vote for them".
It just shows how damaging all the kite flying does to the economy - people and businesses worrying about changes and perhaps even taking what are proved unnecessary actions or simply doing nothing all because of government kite flying or, given the febrile atmosphere, third parties trying to stir it up. And all for no change at all. We’re governed by incompetents.
Given almost no change at a budget is overnight it would seem a bit dim to have taken pre-emptive action based on a rumour! Its not like the "kite flying" was even substantiated to come from the gov themselves! However perhaps by the time the 2029 Sal Sac for pensions rules have actually been worked out in detail - they will actually extend to all Sal Sac schemes.
If I ask colleagues at work what they bought a bike for, its almost always for commuting. They are often visible in the bike storage. Boardman hybrids or Bromptons common.
If I ask MTBers what they bought a bike on the scheme for, its almost always for mountain biking.
I think theres an element of selection bias going on here.
They need to restrict the fees though, CycleScheme are owned by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackhawk_Network_Holdings . They charge the shop 10%, and the employee 7% for doing very little. Wouldn't be surprised if they make more money than the manufacturer and the shop selling the bike once all costs are factored in.