[Closed] Cup & Cone bearings - how lovely!

davidtaylforth - Member 
Cup and cone hubs roll much better than cartridge bearing hubs.

I call balls on that 😛

Got cartridge bearing wheels that spin for hours (slight exaggeration) if left to spin in a stand, just the same as any C&C I've had. Just that the wheels have been untouched for several years and they still roll smooth (even pulled apart to check and clean, only to find it was virtually like new).

There's no technical difference to the rolling. It's balls in a race. Just one is in a sealed unit and the other isn't. Trade offs with each. Unsealed they are wrecked far more by weather and washing, but yes you can just service the stuff without buying replacements if done in time, but you have to do it far more frequently. Bonus though is wheels are typically much cheaper.

[i]I'm not sure that C&C is better than cartridge bearings.[/i]

Let's see - a bike with cup and cone bearings:
[img] [/img]

Sealed:
[img] [/img]

Yeah, it's hard to say really. Wonder which one has the best forks..?

We both know that's a crap comparison DezB. Leave the OP to have had a satisfying and enjoyable day fiddling with bikes and not piss on his chips.

Cup and cone bearings and not always unsealed. Labyrinth seals on c&c are less resistance than the contact seals used on the cartridge units.

DezB - have you seen many BSOs with Dura Ace, Record or XTR hubs?

I bet the conversation in the Shinano R&D dept went a bit like:
Should we just bash some off the shelf generic bits into a tube and sell it as a hub?
Nah, it'll be too high quality. Could we do something more expensive and complicated?
What, like make the bearings, races etc ourselves?
Yeah that sounds difficult. Is it worse though?
Yeah it's worse. Really rubbish. We need to spend millions on tooling and do all the QC in house though.
Brilliant. Let's do it.

thisisnotaspoon>>>...
For the most part thoughI get ~2 years our of rims (either worn out or that's the mean time between failures due to rocks etc) though so actually having hubs that last the lifetime of a wheel is all that's required.

[i]DezB - have you seen many BSOs with Dura Ace, Record or XTR hubs?[/i]

Nope, none of my bikes have any of them, but I have just bought a bike with XT hubs and within a few months had to buy a new set of bloody spanners cos they're all different sizes to all the old c&c spanners in my toolbox. And had to adjust them already. I just think they're crap and outdated. As on prev page, cheap set of sealed bearings, no hassle at all.

(Post with bike comparison wasn't entirely serious, as any fool could tell!)

[i]Leave the OP to have had a satisfying and enjoyable day fiddling with bikes and not piss on his chips.[/i]
That would make for a short and unintersting thread...hmm?

Except cartridges are not that cheap really.
I've killed a overly cheap set in my Hope rear hub in a few months.
Son's bike need new bearings front and rear - £50+ for them...

Pro 2 evo inner freehub bearings on a brand new hub lasted a week (500km) their replacement lasted a similar number of miles over a longer period mind....

Alfine cup and cones lasted 4 years of commuting with only an annual grease and adjust. Not even a full clean

I have and like both, tbh.

I refuse to perform acts of violent incompetence on something as beautiful as a Hope hub, so I have to pay someone else to do it.

I can fix Shimano myself, and the initial saving is nice too.

Deore on the latest bike.
Weighs a ton, not as well sealed as XT but has the older, bigger bearings.
LX had both the bigger bearings and better sealing but I can't see disc versions anymore.

The Deore has been absolutely fine btw, think it was about £25.00.

matt_outandabout - Member 
I've killed a overly cheap set in my Hope rear hub in a few months.

Ah yes, the awesome Hope. Because basically easy to service, i.e. replace bearings. Why do they need servicing so often though? Sure, easy, but why?

DT Swiss, not needing bearing replacement in years (decent wheels that is, not the budget ones). It's all down to the hub seals, not the bearings.

Why do they need servicing so often though?

Honestly, mine last years. Like five or more.

Yeah my current set are about 4 years old and never touched. Few bearings in others over the years but simple with the the right tools.
Shimano seem to want to hang on to their point of difference despite the world moving on as usual. I think when they launched saith they had cup and cinema alongside sealed cartridges for some strange reason

Happy with either, would probably have had a preference for sealed until recently getting some Fulcrums which are cup and cone but very nice quality.

Original Saint was still cup and cone but with replaceable everything including both bearing surfaces.

Cup and cone spreads the load better in the rear axle as the axle is supported at either end, rather than near the middle on the DS of a cartridge bearing hub (Hope axles don't last well for partly this reason), the bearings take cornering loads better as they are an angular contact arrangement, and as mentioned (but disputed above), they have less drag due to non-contact seals.

Downside is some spanner time, but I've no idea why people find it so tricky to correctly adjust the preload? Same principle as a headset.

That said, I've got DT 240s and 350s all my bikes 😉

[quote="deadkenny"]I call balls on thatYou can call it what you want, but he's not wrong.

Typical rear hub (cartridge) will have 4 bearings worth of drag when pedaling, each bearing with 2 seals. (And it's the seals that produce *most* of the drag.) Shimano will have two bearings, and two seals. Total.

A cartridge bearing that spins really really freely is probably a) underfilled, one good way to reduce drag, b) specced with rubbish seals (another good way to reduce drag, many ceramics are specced like this) or c) about to fail (seals worn out).

Whether the actual amount of drag is an issue is up to you.

Add a grease port to your c&c hubs and sorted. Easy maintenance.

Downside is some spanner time, but I've no idea why people find it so tricky to correctly adjust the preload?

It's not tricky, it's just another job to have to do. I want minimum maintenance. Life is short enough as it is.

Funnily enough the only bearings I have had to adjust regularly were my Power tap ones. They were cartridge but for some reason held in place with a c&c arrangement. Kept coming loose. Well - every few years. Never actually replaced them in 8 or so years though.

😕 How is one minimum maintenance and the other not.

Both need a quick check over once a year and a service every now and again.

Or is it as your favourite tool is a hammer?

ghostlymachine - Member 
Whether the actual amount of drag is an issue is up to you.

And likely unnoticeable to 99% of people.

[i]Same principle as a headset.[/i]

Headset? Nobody still uses cup & cone headsets, do they??

And likely unnoticeable to 99% of people.

TBH, the main reason C&C isn't used more is that tooling up costs 6 or 7 figures, in addition to the 6 or 7 figures spent tooling up to make the actual shell in the first place. Then all the design tasks, and assembly etc. Cartridge are a cheap, easily automatable alternative.

Which customers can change using a hammer.

Headset? Nobody still uses cup & cone headsets, do they??

No, but I do adjust the pre-load, just like my C&C hubs.

Both need a quick check over once a year and a service every now and again.

From what people are saying C&c seem to need more servicing than I give my Hopes. I have C&C on my commuter that I have not touched, and also had XTR on my race bike which were great but not used frequently.

And what's wrong with hammers? For me, simplicity of servicing is a positive design feature not a negative one.

From what people are saying C&c seem to need more servicing than I give my Hopes.

I love Hope and their proprietary bearing sizes. Not exactly a cheap job, is it?

And what's wrong with hammers?

What else would you use to tap bearings out of seats? Slide hammer?

Not exactly a cheap job, is it?

It's been that long since I bought any I honestly have no idea how much they cost 🙂

Bearing press.

Anyway my hopes needed more maintainance than my candc alfine.....

Which reminds me that hub is still in bits because I don't trust it anymore and went back to an old hub after 2 sets of inside freehub bearings in as many weeks from new

@DezB - all standard headsets require bearing preload adjustments regardless of bearing type.

And yes, plenty people still use loose ball headsets. Perhaps not out of choice, but they use them nonetheless.

It's been that long since I bought any I honestly have no idea how much they cost

About £40 for the rear bearing kit. Which is more than an XT hub.

And what's wrong with hammers?
Nothing. But not the right tool for the job. Not really the right tool for any job on a bike.

Removing an external headset needs a hammer. I can be fairly certain anyone who says you don't need a hammer for any bike jobs has never worked as a bike mechanic on cheap nasty BSOs. Or old retro bikes. Or neglected nice bikes.

sillyoldman - Member

@DezB - all standard headsets require bearing preload adjustments regardless of bearing type.

And yes, plenty people still use loose ball headsets. Perhaps not out of choice, but they use them nonetheless.

Don't particularly disagree with you, or anyone else, saying they're easy to service - I'm sure they are with experience. It's just not the unbolloxable job you're suggesting, whereas a cartridge change pretty much is.

I find it quite satisfying changing freehub cartridge bearings with just some hot water & thumb power - no lump hammer required!

But the feeling when you get c&c hubs adjusted just right, first time is wildly smug inducing.

The problem with the Hope hubs compared with the Shimanos is that they're a totally different proposition, and in reality you're just moving the wearable part about - Hope you have to clean/regrease the freewheel periodically or you'll need a new hub (or to send it back to Hope anyway), and Shimano the cup and cones are similar.

I'd like to know the cost of a new XT freehub to compare with the cost of all the bearings in a Hope hub (the 2 the hub actually spins on are quite reasonably priced but tend to outlast the freehub in the newer hubs).

Other cartridge bearing hubs have a similar arrangement to the shimanos, just with cartridge bearings on. I've swapped bearings on these (and front hubs) far quicker than I'd be able to properly clean and regrease a cup and cone hub. Hitting stuff with a hammer isn't "nice" though.

I prefer Hope, but I wish they lasted like they used to when we all ran QR hubs.

Maybe that's why I don't have to replace bearings all the time - my Hopes are ten year old ProII 🙂

I remember using a biro pen lid to place the individual ball bearings into hubs!

Anyone else used to do that?

Oh, and remove caged bearings so you could fit a few extra ball bearings into the hub? 😀

I remember using a biro pen lid to place the individual ball bearings into hubs!

Anyone else used to do that?

A Biro? You were lucky to have a Biro. I had to make do with the blade of a slotted screwdriver with a bit of grease on it to hold the ball bearing.

Cartridge bearings? The youth of today don't know how lucky they are.

I am also a fan of cup and cone, though I will tell you my shimano deore rear hub had a habit of the cone coming loose

A Biro? You were lucky to have a Biro. I had to make do with the blade of a slotted screwdriver with a bit of grease on it to hold the ball bearing.

We used to dream of having a screwdriver! When I were a lad, we used to install bearings with a used teabag...

[img] [/img]

Well when I say 'screwdriver' it was only a broken fingernail, but it was a screwdriver to ME.

Well when I say 'screwdriver' it was only a broken fingernail, but it was a screwdriver to ME.

But you try and tell young people today that. They won't believe you!