Has anyone tried either of the above on a Canyon Nerve AM and if so how did it work out?
Particularly on the Burgtech bushings, any issues on shock clearance or suspension performance?
I'd be more inclined towards a headset because then you don't affect the rear suspension design. Offset shock bushings lower the bb, which could alter squat curves.
The Nerve AM (the 2011 one, at least) has an integrated lower bearing on the headset so you can't buy a stock angle-adjust headset to fit it to the best of my knowledge. I emailed Works about the possibility of getting a custom one made but received no reply, must chase that...
I know of one chap on here who had a special adapter machined up to fit a standard 1.5 degree Works headset into a Nerve AM, he had it made to fit a 1 1/8" steerer fork but you could probably do the same with a taper fork, I think the lower race is probably big enough. Having said that he said he only rode it for a short while, so I don't know how successful a modification that really was.
burgtec?
pah! buy them here much cheaper
thanks greebie - but still whether burgtec or ebay cheaper bushings, the question remains has anyone tried them and how did it go
continuity hit it on the head, changing the shock length will change things (it is after all the point), the query is does it materially impact the rear suspension performance on this design?
mint imperial I emailed Works as well, and also don't have a reply yet.
mint imperial I emailed Works as well, and also don't have a reply yet.
That's good to know, it's not just me then. 🙂
though I just noticed at the bottom of their home page that they had a break in and apologising they might take a while to reply
I've been thinking about slackening my nerve am 2012 too. Reckon offset bushings are the way to go - will measure tomorrow and send off for some. Results to follow...
mattjevans - Member
changing the shock length will change things
dont think its changing the length, rather the position of the shock in the frame
i just got the cheap bushings from ebay polish guy, seem good but not ridden in anger yet
Burgtec off-set bushes are titanium so will be more expensive anyway.
kimbers - Memberdont think its changing the length, rather the position of the shock in the frame
It reduces the eye-to-eye length of the shock (which is the length that matters)
tizzzzle, please let me know how you go then. cheers
Hi All
Seems to be a theme here. I emailed Workscomponents also.....no reply, but I have to say I am not hopeful.
So, that leaves the shock mounts. The BB is already fairly low, but could suffer another 5-10mm I guess. The issue is whether it would cause the frame stay bridge to clash with the seat tube.Tizzzle.....get that thing measured and let us all know!
Cheers
It reduces the eye-to-eye length of the shock (which is the length that matters)
No it doesn't. It doesn't affect the shock's size at all.
As someone else said, it changes the position of the shock in the frame.
My mate wanted to do this with his Nerve. He did get a reply from Works, informing him they couldn't provide the appropriate part.
Hob Nob
Agreed ,it doesn't effect the actual shock size, but it does bring the mounting points closer to effectively shortening it. So, like using a shorter shock but with the same travel.
So....and this requires some thought.....does that then mean on full compression at maximum travel, that the seat stay bridge is closer to the seat tube? After all, the shock might be for the sake of argument 10mm shorter,meaning the bike is already sitting into its travel by whatever amount that would equate to, but then it still has the full and original length of the shock to use.
I can't get my head round it, but I am sure someone can give a definitive answer.
I bought a Nerve frame off Fivespot of this forum in March. At the time he had a Workscomponents slack set he was selling, complete with bottom cup for the oversized Canyon head tube. He appeared to know his onions. That slack set added about 1.5 degrees to the angle. might well be worth getting in touch with him. What is it about the Nerve geometry people don't like? Straight off a Cube hard tail it feels pretty planted to me!
Agreed ,it doesn't effect the actual shock size, but it does bring the mounting points closer to effectively shortening it. So, like using a shorter shock but with the same travel.
No it doesn't bring the mounting points closer - they are the same, just in a different place! The second part of your analogy is right.
You're partly right. Because the shock is sitting in a different position, it is in effect in part of the bikes suspension travel phase, which due to the bushes now has a later start point, and a later finishing point.
Your second point is correct about the seat stay bridge is correct, because that now moves further than originally intended you should cycle the shock to check if there is any contact at full travel. Because (for arguements sake lets use 10mm difference) the suspension action now starts 10mm further into it's travel than the manufacturer intended, it now also ends 10mm further than intended. Therefore there may be a tolerance issue at that point.
As a result of that, the offset bushes can cause some less than positive side effects in that as the bike is effectively now sat in it's normal suspension curve before the rider is sitting on it. Some manufacturers bikes are designed so that the suspension works in different ways at different points of its curve - you may find that now sagged, you are beyond an 'engineered' natural pedal platform on the curve & now the bike pedals like a dog.
It's a bit of trial and error, but at £20, it's not the end of the world if it doesn't work. The headset is a better option IMO as it just effects geometry, rather than messing with the suspension curves.
Worth using the search, there was a big post on here about them a couple of months ago & people trying to understand how they work.
What Mase is saying hob nob, is that the shock mount on the front end and trhe shock mount on the swingarm are now closer together. which is obviously true.
another thing to consider is how both options affect the rest of your geometry; angle headsets drop the bb slightly and steepen the seat angle whilst slackening the head angle, whereas offset bushing drop the bb and slacken the seat angle whilst slackening the head angle.
decisions, decisions!
Scapegoat
I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with the NErve AM geometry.I have only had mine 2 days and whilst it is not as slack as the Whyte I had stolen, it is awesome! I just want to know the option for future 'tinkering'.
Hob Nob and SLowrider, you have basically answered my question regarding the possible clash. Trial and error it is.
Hob Nob - MemberNo it doesn't. It doesn't affect the shock's size at all.
Nonsense 😕 The eye to eye length is reduced. The shock is physically the same size but that doesn't matter in the slightest, what matters is the distance between the bolts.
Nonsense The eye to eye length is reduced. The shock is physically the same size but that doesn't matter in the slightest, what matters is the distance between the bolts.
You can't change the i2i of a shock, without changing the physical size of it, clearly.
The distance between the bolts doesn't change, it just changes the point of where the shock bolts onto the frame.
The end result is the same as running a slightly shorter shock, with the same stroke length.
I think you're getting "effective & actual" mixed up.
You can change the i2i of the shock mounting hardware with offset bushings, either increasing or reducing depending on what orientation you have the bushings.
The idea was for a cheaper option for slackening the head angle rather than the expense of an angle set.
The distance between the bolts does change due to the offset in the bushings.
my mate has used these guys to good effect.
http://www.offsetbushings.com/
hobnob, the eye-to-eye measurement is taken from the centre of each bolt hole. fitting an off-set bush will change the position of the bolt hole so changes the measurement, both fully extended and compressed by the same amount.
With offset bushings you are effectively running more sag without sacrificing travel. I don't see why this is so hard to comprehend...
Hob Nob, the only way these things can work is by shortening the e2e measurement which give the same effect as a shorter shock would, but without reducing travel.
My only concern is how much the BB will drop.....any ideas? And the possbility of the seat stay bridge hitting the frame.
Hobnob, no offence chap but you obviously don't understand how these work. They reduce the eye-to-eye (and it's the only way they could work) Just take a look at the parts to see how- the bolts are offset in the bushings.
Mase- you can test for interference by letting all the air out of the shock and (gently) sitting on the bike to fully compress it. Then, let the shock up a couple of mm to get an idea of how far the bridge moves. It's not an exact science but it'll give you a better indication.
Northwind....just done it. When fully compressed there'e about 10mm clearance. I think it will be tight, but for £10 it is worth the experiment.
Mase, did u end up trying this and how was it if so?
As an update in case anyone else is looking at this, on a Canyon Nerve Am the Burgtec bushings work perfectly
Cool. Just ordered the 7002 kit from Burgtec for my Nerve AM 2012.
How much did you lose on the head angle degree wise?
Just a quick one - how did you confirm the Burgtec 7002 set is the correct one for a Nerve AM please?
By taking the shock off the frame and measuring the bits. Simples
Just reviving this thread re my Nerve AM 2011. From Works Components
"As your bike uses a fully integrated lower cup we do not currently have an option to suit..
"Your frame is designed to allow a bearing to drop into the frame - because of this tolerances are much more relaxed than a frame designed with headcups in mind. We could make a cup that would fit but could not cant guarantee fitment accross the range of integrated frames with different manufacturers.
If we could get an informal list of interested people we would be happy to make a lower cup to suit your frame, but we would need more than 5 or so people interested."
Any one else up for this?
David
Well, not specifically for your Nerve but if they could do me one for my Camber (fully integrated top and bottom) I'd be very interested.
mrelectric... Thats something I could be interested in for my Nerve AM
If anyone is still wanting to slacken their Nerve AM I can confirm that the Burgtec offset bushing kit 7002 fits and works perfectly. Very easy to fit and creates a noticeably slacker bike.
[url= http://www.burgtec.co.uk/products/offset-shock-hardware/burgtec-titanium-offset-shock-hardware/ ]http://www.burgtec.co.uk/products/offset-shock-hardware/burgtec-titanium-offset-shock-hardware/[/url]
You'll want kit 7002 (22.0mm x 8.1mm at both ends)
With them fitted: (forgot to take a 'before' photo so this is a bit pointless...)
[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8301/7979546463_e5935384cf_b.jp g" target="_blank">
mrelectric...
I would also be interested in slackening the head angle a little on my Nerve AM 9.0x.
would the part from "Works Components" work in the same sort of way as a Canecreek angleset?
tizzzzle..
How much do the offset bushings slacken the head angle by? I've understnad offset bushings can lower the BB and have other effects on the handling of the bike, have you noticed any?
thanks
With offset bushings, the centre-to-centre of the bored mount hole (traditionally in the dead centre of the eyelet) is closer together.
So the i2i length of the mounting holes does change...
mrelectric, I have a 2011 Nerve AM and would be very very interested indeed in chipping in for a small run batch from Works, drop me a line if you go for this, my email address is my username at gmail.com.
Bit late on the thread, but to answer the original question. I have tried a Works Components 1.5 headset on a Nerve AM. To do so I machined the adapter below to accept a WC headset. This will only work with a std. 1 1/8" steerer, which for me was ideal as I bought my Nerve AM as a frame only, and already had Revelation 150 Teams. The conversion worked spot-on. With the slacker front, it was a few mm lower at the front (7-8mm I think) which would equate to maybe 3mm at the BB, plus a very slight steepening of the seat tube. but I didn't keep the frame long as I found out I could get a Mega frame on the Cycle to Work scheme 😀
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Adapter is available for a tenner if anybody's interested 😉
Just an update on this..
I had a very quick email reply from a guy called Rick at Works Components. They are planning on making some headsets to work with Canyon Nerve frames in the next few weeks, sounds very promising..
Sounds like they would make something similar to what fivespot machined (above)?
see the reply I got..
[i]The reason current headsets dont fit is the bottom headcup style - they have gone for an IS standard lower headtube where the bearing drops straight into the frame - there is no headcup so a standard cup wont fit.
We would need to make a cup to suit this size, essentially replacing the bearing with an interference fit cup - I expect we could alter head angle by 1.5 degrees but it would mean using an external cup so extra stack height would be a necessity - this would mean a 1.5 degre headset could alter actual head angle by 2.2degrees due to the extra height of the lower cup.
The lowering effect on the front end when slackening the head angle would be offset by the cups extra height so front end height would be raised by less than the cups actual height of around 10mm - likely around 5mm in actual effect.
Price would be in-line with all of our other headsets - around £79.99
We are due to run off a new headcup to suit tapered steerer tubes in 44mm ht frames, we wiill be able to produce some headsets to suit your bike at the same time - should take around 3 weeks start to finish. [/i]
Smashing! Sounds perfect. I'll drop them an email to register my interest. 😀
I have to say I'd only really be interested if it would fit the existing tapered steerer fork I have in there. I looked at buying fivespot's custom headset thingy off him a while back, but I'd need to buy new forks or replace the CSU or something to run that, at which point I'd be spending enough extra that I was looking at just flogging the frame and getting a new slacker one instead...
yeah I have a tapered steerer too, I understand the part they are proposing would be for tapered steerers.
I'm not sure if 2.2deg overal might be a little too slack or if that would be just right..
I'm not sure if 2.2deg overal might be a little too slack or if that would be just right..
Hmm. Yep, I'd probably want to knock off around 1.5deg ideally. I'd still go for it at 2.2 though.
I'd be keen on this too, would take one (at least) of the bushings out i guess - how slack should a trail bike be really?
Nerve 2011 is 69deg.
I've just moved my 08/09 Marin Rock Springs from 70 to 67 by moving lower pivot option and I like it. Very small change in BB height change, none in seat angle.
I thought 2.2deg might be too much but I'm up for this for my Nerve - seems like a popular choice too.
Been onto Works and they are prioritising this over next few weeks.
I'm assuming I can install this easily myself; done std headsets OK.
Looking forward to this.
2012 is 68.5. I'd prefer a 1 degree cup which presumably would move HA by 1.7 or so with the adaptor cup.
Together with Burgtec bushings this might get it to 66ish, basically same as a Nukeproof Mega, and keep the BB close to original.
Has anyone heard from Works if this is confirmed to be available soon?
Nope, I've emailed Works twice and received no reply either time. Anyone else heard anything?
Yes, last Monday. They've got a backlog and should have the prototype ready about now with a production run within the next 7-14 days.
Then gotta get my AM back from Canyon after they fix the pivots and cranks.
Smashing! Please post up here if you have any more updates, cheers...
what's wrong with your pivots Mr E?
I emailed Works the other week and as of yet i've heard nothing back ether,I think i'll just be sticking with my Burgtec bushes now
Lower chainstay pivots gone, esp drive side. The rest of the linkage is so stiff I didn't notice until shock & wheel were removed for service at TF. Bike back at Canyon for 3+ weeks now; I am confident they'll honour the 2 year warranty. Hammershmidt supposedly worn out (yearish old) so discussions in hand....
OH MY GOD NOT THIS THREAD AGAIN
From Works. All sounding good
"I should be setting up a prototype to be machined by the end of the week all being well.
We will have 1 and 1.5 degree options - if there is call for it we would make an internal option for 1 1/8" steerer tubes but it looks like most Canyon owners have full-builds with tapered forks.
Yes, all of our cups are anodized black so will be in keeping with the frame / componentry.
I will get some more info on our facebook page as soon as we have it, and an item on our site when it is available.
Thanks, regards, Rick"
Lower chainstay pivots gone? As in disappeared, David Blane style? That would give me a bloody shock, hope mine remain firmly on the bike.
update from works components facebook page..
"Canyon Nerve Prototype headset is going in for anodizing today - test fitment later this week - Nearly there!"
Anyone here the "test pilot"?
Fingers crossed for this week?
I see that Works have now launched the Canyon angle set. Has anyone bought and fitted it the the Canyon Nerve AM yet? If so, how are you getting on with it?
I tried the prototype and have been very happy. Steerer tube was too short so used original Acros on top for now; zero stack due soon to finish the job for 1.0 deg or 1.5 actual with raising by external lower race. Acros bearings fit fine too.
I had offset bushings on my old Titus FTM and have the Burgtec ones on my 575.
Best thing I have ever done IMO
BTW the e bay ones don't stock all they say and you have to pay before they tell you that, hence the faff of a refund.
Burgtec are much nicer people
I've just fitted a 1 degree set to my nerve AM. Only ridden it once, not a massive difference but the front wheel is slacker so I reckon when I try it out on some downhill trails it will be more stable.
Any updates on a Works headset in a Canyon Nerve AM?