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Love the Ranger: Beautiful, low, straight tube from headset to rear hub, 27.5 clearance with super short chain-stays and designed for 120 mm forks which comes in handy if you want to run it rigid for messing around on the street. Also like the idea of supporting two UK riders!
Still, at 1000 pounds it's a significant investment, is there anything comparable out there for equal or less money?
Most options seem to have too slack head angles for my riding style and DJ frames rarely fit 27.5 wheels plus tend to be on the small side for daily get around town use.
If you put a a -2 deg headset and a 130mm fork onto a Bird Zero AM the geometry is within mm and about a quarter of a degree. Try it, see if you like how it rides, then upgrade the frame and swap everything bar the headset across?
Was going to say pretty much any 4X frame if you can find a seatpost long enough.
Why wouldn't you want 26" wheels?
You know... being stronger, lighter, cheaper and (still) easily available with better tyre choice.
£1000 is stupid for that. surely you could approach pretty much any (more experieced) frame builder and have them build you a bike with the same/similar geometry for less. are Curtis still going?
Gwurk: I have 27.5 wheels ATM and like em for getting around places fast, 26" is fine too, I could use either size. What 4x frame would you rec with long reach? I'm 6'4".
Chieftgrooveguru: The Bird Zero is nice! 10 mm longer chain-stays, albeit the steeper head angle could suit me better. Sold out of anything but the orange ATM. Doesn't match the looks of steel 😉
Stooge mk3 takes 650b+ and 120-140mm forks
Sonder worth a look at well
What 4x frame would you rec with long reach? I'm 6'4".
Ah... with this information. Nothing off the shelf.
I'd still be speaking to the guys at Curtis. They used to build 24" wheel DJ frames for Jim Davage (he must be at least 6'5")
Santa Cruz Chameleon has short stays; dunno what the rest of it its like, looks mint though.
surely you could approach pretty much any (more experieced) frame builder and have them build you a bike with the same/similar geometry for less
I don't believe you could.
(more experieced)
Paul Burford teaches at [url= http://www.thebicycleacademy.org/about/staff/ ]The Bicycle Academy[/url] (as well as being one half of [url= https://www.btr-fabrications.com/ ]BTR Fabrications[/url]) : i do believe that would account for "experienced".
Chieftgrooveguru: The Bird Zero is nice! 10 mm longer chain-stays, albeit the steeper head angle could suit me better. Sold out of anything but the orange ATM. Doesn't match the looks of steel
On 10mm longer in the S, 5mm longer in M & L, same in XL (I do like how the BTR scales the chainstay with size). I realise now that BTR updated their geometry by adding some more reach and knocking a degree off the head angle - before they did this the medium Zero AM with those tweaks and the large Ranger were incredibly close (bar the longer headtube on the BTR).
Yes, you don't get the steel look but it's pretty slimline in looks in the stealth black and very slimline in weight!
Nice to see GW back again!
gwurk: the Curtis Racelite is a bit too small, the Curtis AM6 L a bit taller than I'd like (seat tube). More expensive than the BTR, guessing a custom one would be extra.
qwerty: link only lands me on front page!
david: I've lusted for a chameleon for a long time, same short chainstays as BTR and "only" $749, but it's light teal..I cannot 
Another option is a XL BTR Ignitor 4x4 frame, suuper low, 410 mm CS, long enough reach to be usable around town and could even fit a 2.0 27.5 wheel. Steeper head angle.
qwerty - Member
surely you could approach pretty much any (more experieced) frame builder and have them build you a bike with the same/similar geometry for less
I don't believe you could.(more experieced)
Paul Burford teaches at The Bicycle Academy (as well as being one half of BTR Fabrications) : i do believe that would account for "experienced".
All these people are self proclaimed, that's a bit different to experienced which I honestly would consider 10-15 years if I was buying. From reading on the steel is real facebook group theyre amateurs compared to many others.
How long has Curtis been in the game? iirc he also taught at the bicycle frame school and was the guy who taught them everything they purport to know , think he was there at the very beginning.
edit oh here you go
http://www.thebicycleacademy.org/2014/01/15/mission-accomplished/
The Curtis facebook page indicated, some time ago, that Brian Curtis had hung up his blowtorch and retired.
When I emailed them with a couple of questions about a frame the reply gave contradictory information to the website, and when I queried that, they told me there was an error on the website. Which still hasn't been corrected. The overall lack of a clear answer put me off a bit to be honest.
Sorry. I had no idea I was so out of touch with steel frame prices. (Jailtime does that)
I'd still rather go with Gary and Brian than Burf and Tam. But that might just be me as I always liked Curtis' ethos and how they helped out many local (to me at the time) riders. Gotta admit I haven't really had any first hand experience of BTR. There's probably not a whole lot between the two.
Don't get too hung up on my words. by more experienced I simply meant more time building frames.
I’ve got three mates that ride and have btr’s, one is a total custom full sus which predated the new Pinner and the other’s are ranger’s one the newer one and in the process of being specked and built the other has been on it for over a year and says it really is up there with the hype he’s just won the southern hardtail over all I his age group and he’s done a few of his own kom’s up are local patch on it over his full sus.
Is any custom frame worth a big cost compared to an of the shelf frame big?
From experience myself from another very well known Canadian frame maker no it was terrible and has made me wary. But if I could find a good frame that fit and rode good and I thought it could be copyied and made with better materials by Burf & tam I would do it again as from what I’ve seen there work is excellent.
philxx1975 - i hear you, surely the passing down of knowledge to a passionate / gifted / engineer is different to that given to an individual on a 1 week course building an Africa bike?
Its evolution of the trade, old school to new school, keeps the vibe alive, and the knowledge moving.
I love this, i think Tang posted it a while back: [url= https://dorftv.at/video/26825 ]respect to the past.[/url]
I've been very impressed with how BTR have refined the finest details since they were literally building frames in a shed (which Tam was sleeping in!)
Another cheaper alternative is the new BFe. That'll take shorter forks too. Won't end up as low as the BTR or Bird and the chainstays are longer. Looks amazing, love the CMYK finish. If you're comparing the geometry with the BTR or Zero note that Cotic quote it with 25% fork sag - the 160mm fork (sagged) numbers are what you'd get unsagged with a 120mm fork.
XL DMR Trailstar?
Just had a quick look at both sets of dimensions and they're not far off.
HA is not quite as slack, but reach, TT, chainstay, and wheelbase are all very similar.
*edit - though the quoted 66 degree HA is with 20% sag.
£499, but I got mine for £325 from Upgrade (the distributer) as it had a tiny paint blemish!
Very nice frames/bikes, absolutely love mine.
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chiefgrooveguru: Thanks! not a bad deal, bit too tall and long to be perf for me though, i'm really going for the one bike i'll hopefully use the rest of my life here so I want it to be perfect both functionally and aesthetically If i can have that too. What I'm really wondering is if the XL Instigator would suit me better than the L Ranger 😉
ajanton: thanks! but the trailstar is 0,4 kg heavier, 20 mm taller and with 10 mm longer chainstays, plus not as sexy imo.
No worries, but (beauty being in the eye of the beholder, etc.) I find the BTR quite 'clunky' looking. Don't like the brace, and the headtube looks weirdly long. Built up the DMR looks very nice IMO 😉
Weight is only 300g more - though neither company's quoted weights at for the XL size, do who knows?
Chainstays only 5mm longer - just measured mine at 425mm.
Starling or I'd be looking at kingdom ti if it was my money
ajantom: very true, I have OCD about straight lines from head tube to rear hub 😉
v666ern: Kingdom Ti is sick, and looks significantly lighter than the BTRs, but 1600 pounds! Heck!
New gen BFE and a 2 degree slackset?
colournoise: you're the second one to mention it! Let's see.
+ half the price
= head angle similar (end at ~66 degrees with a 100 mm rigid fork)
- 428 mm vs 415 or 410 mm chainstay (ranger/ignitor)
- seat tube 30 mm taller than the ignitor
- paint/color scheme a dealbreaker for me personally
I'm surprised the BTR DJ frame has a 66 degree HT btw, seems slack, I'd expect it to be at least 68 degrees. Right now leaning towards the Ignitor. The higher cost isn't too much of a problem If I can own this bike for a decade.
You're not going to want this:
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It's not steel. it only comes in a couple of colours. and it's not got funsize stays.
But.
it's a couple of hundred grams lighter.
With a 120mm fork in Large'd have:
68deg HA.
425mm stays.(I know... not great. but it was designed for silly tyres)
66mm BB drop (bonus of being designed for those silly tyres)
Reach of 455ish.
Worried being aluminium it won't last 10 years?
buy a few
They're £250 RRP
gwurk: doesn't have to be steel, but steel is usually sexier! It just boggles the mind the colors and decals these companies put on their bikes, what's up with the Pocahontas decals!
Anyways, the dartmoor frame has shorter reach for the same size frame, longer chainstays and higher seat tubes. So It'd be good, but it's making too many compromises and casting too wide of a net. It'll be good at many things but won't be amazing at anything, and I want a frame that won't leave me thinking what-if and will last me a decade or two. It's very close to the frame I am currently replacing.
Stif Morf? I haven't checked the numbers but from memory it seems about right.
Kingdom also do the Vendetta in the cheaper X2 version.
What bike are you talking about qwurk ^ ? I can't see a link/pics.
yohandsome - Member
I have OCD about straight lines from head tube to rear hub
I'd wager not [I]very[/I] OCD seeing as the BTR in the pic above is obviously not a straight line, but just enough off to be noticeable.
YarpKingdom also do the Vendetta in the cheaper X2 version.
It's very close to the frame I am currently replacing
Which is?
DMR trailstar? dont know the geo im just guessing now!
I'd wager not very OCD seeing as the BTR in the pic above is obviously not a straight line, but just enough off to be noticeable.
True Stevet1, hence why I'm leaning towards the Ignitor with a 66 degree HA and more straighter line 😉
I see [b]Vendetta X2[/b] preorders open again Nov 1st at 999 GBP. The L Compared to the XL Ignitor (basically a ranger with more DJ like geometry):
+ 0.35 kg lighter
+ titanium? 8)
- 64.5 degree HA (too slack for street, the instigator a bit better at 66)
- 13 mm longer CS
- 30 mm taller ST
So overall, for my use it's a worse choice, but for Enduro/xc use it'd be a very close call. Stif Morf also nice but too tall ST, that'd be my budget pick for enduro/xc.
Why cant you not compromise and have 2xbikes?
Check out Chromag too. I've got a Wideangle with a 160mm forks and a -2 headset in it. Brilliant thing! It's currently sitting at 64 degrees HA.
I think if you stuck in a -2 headset and ran a 120 forks you'd be sitting around 66 degrees?
I think if you stuck in a -2 headset and ran a 120 forks you'd be sitting around 66 degrees?
How much impact does that have on BB height?
That DMR is just disgusting to look at. as hard as it is to believe, it makes the BTR look beautiful..
If it was my choice, i'd be on the Stiff Morf or Cotic BFE.
Any chance you could explain what that actually is?for my use
Commencal's new Meta AM hardtail frame is £315 in alu and £490 in cro-mo
[url= https://www.commencal-store.co.uk/Mobile/frame-meta-ht-am-650b-black-2018-c2x22586613 ]commencal link[/url]
Forks travel may be on the large side for you.
Why cant you not compromise and have 2xbikes?
Any chance you could explain what that actually is?
I don't need two bikes, it's just hard to find a bike that perfectly fits my use; fooling around on the street on a 100 mm rigid fork; getting from A to B quickly and comfortably all year daily being 6'4", hopping, manuals, tiny bit of trialsing. On rare occasions XC. Something fun to get around on that can do everything and last a long time.
Basically I want a stretched out DJ frame that can fit 27.5 wheels with 2" slicks. Guess there's just not a large market for such a bike, nothing I've seen off the shelf fits that good, so most the bikes that fit the bill are custom builds. One exception was the EVIL DOC in long.
Probably because stretched out frames and 650b wheels are awful for dirt jumping, trials and street. Take a look at pretty much every taller guy riding that sort of stuff. They still won't be riding stretched out bikes. And for good reason.
Soderstrom is 6'5" and rides an off the shelf Spesh P1 (or is it a P3 I forget) Size Long.
I refer you to my first reply
Out of interest. How far is your daily A to B?
That DMR is just disgusting to look at. as hard as it is to believe, it makes the BTR look beautiful
But harsh 😉 much nicer when built up, honest!
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I got full custom Ti from Waltly for £850 all in.
Really nicely finished.
gwurk: Not ideal, but def usable, I can also switch to 26" wheels if I want with the right frame, it's just cool if its able to take my current 27.5" ones. I'm not going to go flying through the air with it. Daily I bike around 15 km perhaps, not far but it's nice when they're 15 enjoyable fast kms.
1. Commute bike
2. Street bike (flat stuff not big jumps)
3. Long trips
4. XC bike
Will likely never see DH or DJs.
Have you spoken to BTR about your requirements? Tam is really helpful and would be happy to discuss how they could make a bike to fit your needs, including the compromises it would involve.
Pretty sure I saw on their Instagram one of their peers riding a chaser with a rigid enve fork, set up for a bmx track. And from above it sounds like a chaser would be closer to what you're after, perhaps with some personal mods.
I'll have a BTR one day, either a ranger or the 29er version of the pinner when they have time to sort it.
And as a side I'm c.6ft 4 and have a chameleon. It's a brilliant bike, very versatile. But I'd rather have a BTR!
Gotama: We're in talks 😉 If you're reading this Tam or Burf, cheers! I'm thinking a XL Ignitor possibly with a 2 degree steeper head angle would be perfect (same as a L Chaser, only much lower ST and shorter CS), it could even do 27.5 with not huge tires.
One option that hasn't been mentioned, the Black Market Edit 1. $599, but disqualified for only allowing a 30T front chainring, need at least 36 to go fast on a 1x. Here in XXXL.
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Ah Gotama, I’m with you I will have a BTR (Ranger) too one day and will be my only bike 🙂
gwurk: Not ideal, but def usable, I can also switch to 26" wheels if I want with the right frame, it's just cool if its able to take my current 27.5" ones. I'm not going to go flying through the air with it. Daily I bike around 15 km perhaps, not far but it's nice when they're 15 enjoyable fast kms.1. Commute bike
2. Street bike (flat stuff not big jumps)
3. Long trips
4. XC bikeWill likely never see DH or DJs.
Sounds like you need a 27.5 Chaser with a super short seat tube and dropped top tube! All the other frames will be way overbuilt. Are you planning on running 1x11?
Sounds like you need a 27.5 Chaser with a super short seat tube and dropped top tube! All the other frames will be way overbuilt. Are you planning on running 1x11?
I am 85kg and do trash it about a bit, so overbuilt might not be a bad idea.
The ignitor already has a short CS and short top tube, but 2 degrees slacker head angle than the chaser. So I'm thinking a XL ignitor with 2 degrees steeper head angle is that's possible if it will fit a 2" tire on 27.5 wheels.
Yes 1x11 zee groupset.
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BTR Ignitor XL to the left VS Brand X Large frame to the right. Longer reach on the BTR and will fit my 27.5" wheels, would need a 460 mm seatpost!
How much abuse can you give a mountain bike if you ride XC and commuting with no jumps?
Your requirements seem at odds, but what it really sounds like is that you have already made your mind up and want a BTR.
tomaso: Who knows, I might take up DJing in my forties hah, longevity is another factor, so the sturdier the better. I came into this thread wanting a BTR as I expressed, but wanted to see if I had missed any other great options.
paton: nice event, unfortunately i'm in Berlin.
I think the Ranger is just spot on geo wise and I personally dig the industrial look.
Anyone have a current model Ranger and can speak to its ride quality? In rough rocky terrain? I'm curious less about geo and more about the compliance of the frame, would you describe its ride as tending more towards smooth or harsh? Have you ridden other hardtail's that you could compare it too?
Thanks!