Forum menu
That is indeed true, unless you can get a commencal for under £390 I think it is. Maybe a hoodie and a hat 🙂
And what margin will those suppliers in Europe charge? And are those materials/components exempt from duty?
a lot of stuff comes in via EU importers already, if it does then there would be no change. Even if goods did come in under a tariff, if the manufacture changed the status to a customs warehouse, he wouldn't bare that cost until it went bak into the coutry of desstination at whatever that charge would already have been.
also,
kelvin
Full Member
Would this pass the 50% mark?55% mark.
The default value to use is MaxNOM 50% (Maximum 50% non-originating material), Heading 8712 (MaxNOM45%) is complete bike fulling under the definition of;
“frames and forks must be present, plus any 2 of the following major components – a set of wheels, a steering unit (including handlebar and handlebar stems), brake system and crank-gear (normally consists of a bracket-bearing axle, gearings and a crank or pedal arm).”
Parts of bicycles are classified under subheading 8714 (as are complete bicycles with motors), but excepting items such as tyres (chapter 40), luggage (chapter 42) or lighting (8512100000). So go back to 50%..
Yes. 55% for bikes. (MaxNOM 45%)
vinnyeh
Free Member
What’s the story if I head over to Europe on my summer holiday, pick up say a new Commencal and bring it back- am I, in theory, liable for UK import vat and duty, even if theres no mechanism for reclaiming vat on removing the bike from France ie it’s now the same as buying a bike in the US, and bringing it back.
you are right there is no VAT reclaim mechanism, that was hard when we were in the EU anyway. You would never be picked up for bringing a bike back - there are also provisions in place for non commercial transactions like this anyway, but is value dependant.
Was curious, thought it would be so, but it seems so backward now.
Sticking with my Bird anyway.
but it seems so backward now
It is. Brexit is retrograde.
Yes. 55% for bikes. (MaxNOM 45%)
No-one listened to us did they : )
P467 of the FTA if anyone's interested in CTH and % MaxNOM. NOM NOM NOM.
50% UK or CTH for E-bikes, 55% UK for pedal bikes.
a lot of stuff comes in via EU importers already,
Not OE. You collect pretty much everything from the factory door.
Only Shimano comes indirect for us, and then its straight from the factory to the UK. Ive not checked but I assume that the better shimano kit will be tariff free into the UK since we have a Jpn>UK deal.
Also I assume the same applies in reverse i.e. if you buy an Canyon I can’t imagine much of that is made in the EU.
Should be no problem for Canyon exporting to us as I've heard a rumour that we are outside the EU. If there is an increased tax go have a word with Boris.
There again he did promise this:
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/britain-to-remove-tariffs-on-non-eu-bicycles-following-no-deal-brexit.html
I used to work at a sub-contractor, building Muddy Fox bikes. They were 'made in the UK' but actually just assembled. This is the only way you can do mid-market stuff. Maybe Saracen will come back from the dead if we can't buy EU bikes!
From reading the thread it sounds like many non business owners are panicking / fearing the worst but Bird Bikes are basically... We’ve prepped, our company is well run and can hit the required figures to export without issue.
BTw the Æther 9C looks epic at the price in comparison to the usual suspects. If I was in the market right now this would be my choice over anything US or EU. They’ve also double sided the internal routing on the frame for export to US / EU.
If uk manufacturing could extend the interest free credit on a uk made frame then i would be happy to pay.
In my head I’ve always justified a payment in the region of £50pm over for a frame over 18mnths, extend that an I can’t see a problem.
Should be no problem for Canyon exporting to us as I’ve heard a rumour that we are outside the EU. If there is an increased tax go have a word with Boris.
I see Canyon have currently paused shipments to the UK, also prices are now significantly more than the same bike shipped to Ireland, i.e. same number of £s to UK as €s to Ireland
@binners Wow that black Grifter takes me back. I got one and then BMX’s appeared 5 minutes later. Forks were very bendy
“ If uk manufacturing could extend the interest free credit on a uk made frame then i would be happy to pay.”
The problem with interest free credit for a manufacturer, is that it’s only free for the customer. Someone has to pay, so the finance company takes a cut, and it’s a pretty big chunk of the margin unless your mark-up is really huge.
I’m still trying to get my head around how to deal with Northern Irish customers. For the normal EU I’ve changed prices to ex-VAT, like all non-EU European countries, but I think I have to charge VAT to NI but the shipping and admin will be more expensive than GB.
I do hope some Brexiteers are being driven mad by this shit too, but I have a horrible feeling that those of us whose jobs are so negatively impacted all voted remain!
Who else makes suspension forks in the EU apart from EXT?
DT are swiss and Lauf are icelandic? you would need to check the small print to see if there are any work arounds for those two. You also have Ohlins who are i believe swedish, As for where stuff is made and how that fits the RoO???
Back to the OP's question (or my interpretation), will it see more bikes made from 'scratch' in the UK?
Long term I don't think anyone can say for sure. Short to mid term you'll see less options sold in the UK and higher prices on average. That might leave a gap in the market for us and others to expand our business. Maybe we'll get to the size where it becomes economical to do what we do fully in the UK (excepting the obvious need for foreign parts). Thats a way off though. Whats more likely is you'll see more investment and business into EU based manufacturers like Triangles in PT. The UK market is tiny compared to the EU one, so its more likely you'd set up shop on the continent and sell into the UK than the other way round, and, as that happens, the advantages that maybe I have right now for UK customers go away.
At the moment the only advantage to leaving the EU is the negative effects on my Euro competition are (right now) worse than for me - i.e. Canyon, YT etc. Long term unless something changes no amount of deregulation etc. is likely to affect my business in a positive way. We (and Im guessing Stanton/Cotic etc. too) just aren't the minimum wage paying, corner cutting, polluting kind of business. We had less bureaucracy and red tape a month ago than we do today, so thats heading in the wrong direction totally.
The only long term upside will be if this does allow us to get a proper trade deal with the USA which for us is the only market big enough to make a real difference.
All of the above said, leaving the EU will have minimal long term impact on us (and by association the rest of the bike industry I am guessing). We'll survive, we'll adapt and we'll move on. Or rather its not a defining issue. Our business decisions on what to make and how we sell it will be far more important than a few not-insurmountable trade barriers raised every now and again.
ben - are your bikes going to be more expensive in the UK as a result of the changes and duties etc?
@Tj no they remain exactly the same cost to us in the UK give or take some inbound shipping cost differences, but they're a small %age of the cost of parts.
Except maybe DT Swiss spokes and nipples, Ive not looked into whether as they come from Switzerland and thats an outlier, will I have import duty on those? Don't know and TBH probably don't care as its only going to add 5% to a very small part of the cost of a wheel if it does happen.
EDIT: The reason for that BTW is as a rule we're sourcing direct from country of origin. So anything we get from the EU was made in the EU, and therefore is tariff free. UK Tariff rates today are exactly what they were on the 31st Dec. so nothing changed in that regard.
Actually, one key factor is the USD GBP exchange rate, and that has improved a bunch since it looked like a deal was coming and is holding strong in the mid 130s. I never thought 10 years ago I would say it but thats not a bad rate compared to the last couple of years, so relatively speaking it will allow us to hold fast against the tide of rising prices in the industry (5-10% is being widely publicised by our suppliers) so we'll look better value probably, even though the prices will sneak up a little in 2021.
I noticed Nukeproof put a statement out about increased prices as the free trade deal does not cover their UK - EU shipments due to the bikes originally coming from Asia.
It kind of baffles me though as once the bikes land in the EU surely all vat and duty is paid so why cant they then be sent to the UK under the trade deal, its not like there is some loophole to lower taxes.
Surely this will affect all manufacturers who have warehouses and distributors throughout the EU.
BTW out of curiosity what is the actual import rate for a MTB or e-MTB if it was sent from an EU shop to UK?
Good insight @benpinnick thanks.
The only long term upside will be if this does allow us to get a proper trade deal with the USA which for us is the only market big enough to make a real difference.
Do you think the US market would be good for you? I mean their homegrown industry is big, and they presumably design bikes for US tastes and you for UK taste, and I think they vary somewhat, no?
14% + VAT for a regular bike, Ebikes is less but I can't remember what. 6% or something.
The only long term upside will be if this does allow us to get a proper trade deal with the USA which for us is the only market big enough to make a real difference.
What barriers exist currently that you believe will be removed, and surely these will again favour the larger 'partner'?
Do you think the US market would be good for you? I mean their homegrown industry is big, and they presumably design bikes for US tastes and you for UK taste, and I think they vary somewhat, no?
We do an OK trade into the US considering the costs of shipping and duty. Take away the duty and it could only get better. It's not the be all and end all though. If it got significantly bigger we'd open a factory there. The EU was quite practical for direct to consumer shipping (Even better when we had the heady days of the customs union), the US has never been nor will it be so the volume needed to flip production there for US/Canadian customers would be much smaller.
That all depends on the deal though. For example I can no longer send bikes duty free to Canada since we left the EU as there's no way to hit the origin targets from UK only product. The same would probably apply in the US so a US trade deal might not help us at all for a complete bike.
Great info Ben, thank you.
To be honest I thought that e-bikes would of been higher than normal bikes, in fact I am shocked there is any fees on them the way the government is pushing a healthier lifestyle you would think products promoting that would be tariff free rather than pushing prices up!
Ha yeah. To be fair though eBikes compared to normal bikes are somewhat-polluting, less long lived in terms of the parts and harder to dispose of at the end of their life. Would be odd to have duty on regular bikes which are very eco friendly and then nothing on their slightly less green counterparts.
> double post removed <
All the rules are beneficial for ebikes compared to bikes without motors... but you need to remember that in many European countries, ebikes are replacing bikes with tiny (dirty) combustion engines. From "the other side of the fence" not having the more strict RoO and higher tariffs of normal bikes on them makes sense from that point of view. They set the terms of the deal, based on our political red lines.
Interesting that both Ben and Kelvin are very clued up about EBike rules.
Wonder what's in the pipeline 🙂
I wouldn't hold my breath on a USA trade deal. It will be low on Biden's priorities. Boris spent years with his nose up Trump's crack. Prior to the election he'd never bothered to meet Biden or indeed have any contact at all. So now he'll be at the back of the queue. Biden is pro EU and thought it unwise to leave.
Email from Cotic.
"Well, it took a few days of digging to get there, but we finally have our new working practices in place for our EU customers. We contacted all our customers with orders already placed with deposits individually last week, as we wanted to make sure they understood their situation specifically rather than seeing a general mailshot like this.
EU Export - New Rules
Before I get into this in detail, please remember that this is Cotic specific. We have a particular implementation because of our UK made frames and also because we sell predominantly mountain bikes. This means our bikes generally have very high value suspension bolted to them (the same, if not more than the frame cost sometimes) which is what stops us qualifying for tariff free trade on bicycles in all cases regardless of the origin of the base frame. Some other companies will have different tariff applications, because of their supply and bike spec situation. So, without further ado, this is what you can now expect from Cotic:
UK Made Frames:
UK made frame only orders (so that is currently RocketMAX and Rocket) attract Zero duty when shipped to the EU. This is regardless of the damper specified, and can also stretch to include headset and BB and certain other items usually associated with "frame only" orders, mainly because in the vast majority of cases it involves UK made Hope parts.
Taiwan Made Frames:
All Taiwan made frame only orders will attract 4.7% import duty, and the associated handling fees for customs. As an example, we have calculated that a customer in the EU with a BFeMAX frame ordered will pay EUR40-50 more now.
Complete Bikes:
All Cotic bicycles attract 14% import duty. This means that with handling fees our bikes have become EUR350-600 more expensive depending on specification.
The flip side of this in our home market is that this also works the other way, and our European based competitors bikes have increased in price by 20% or more, which means we are now more price competitive in our home market. Silver linings and all that.....
All purchases made by EU customers are now charged without 20% UK VAT. This means the price you pay Cotic will be much lower initially, but you will have VAT and the import duty and fees applied in transit, which will be payable by the customer to the courier when the frame or bike arrives.
Shipping
If you live in the EU and already have an order on with us for a frame or bike, then shipping is still included in the price and we will honour that regardless of what happens in the next few weeks.
We aim to continue with that with new orders, but we are keeping an eye on pricing. At the moment the prices remain similar to pre-Brexit, but some services such as DPD Road is currently suspended whilst they figure out their new border operating procedures, and the other services available are currently giving out 11-14 day transit times. Again, I suspect this is due to needing new and more involved operating procedures at borders. It will improve over time as the new rules settle in, but we reserve the right to increase shipping fees if we see major increases on our usual services.
So that's it. Thanks for your patience, and as always, we're on the end of an email or the phone if you're unsure about anything. We're happy to talk things through.
Cy
Founder and Director
And YT showing £185 shipping & import fees plus Customs Duty of £570 on a £4,900 bike.
This is Cy's "silver lining"...
Just got that Cotic email, clarifies things quite nicely for their position.
The YT thing doesn't hold well for my planned purchase though if the other German brands are going to be a similar price increase. Won't make me buy elsewhere as the type of bike I'm after they're still going to be cheaper than the alternatives so it'll just mean getting the model below instead.
The flip side of this in our home market is that this also works the other way, and our European based competitors bikes have increased in price by 20% or more
Anyone seen this in action? Just checked a few websites and I got the feeling I was looking at existing stock.
Anyone seen this in action? Just checked a few websites and I got the feeling I was looking at existing stock.
See above. Try buying from YT.
I note that the silver lining is basically that the consumer gets shafted and will be paying extra whatever they buy. Great. Still blue passports.
It's important to note that while consumers may "get shafted"... this isn't by the bike companies (the likes of YT don't want their bikes to cost you more.. it's not helping them)... and isn't by the couriers (they will have to charge more, but that's because they have more red tape to deal with)... the people shafting consumers are the politicians... specifically UK politicians... and what's amazing is that they get so many of us to cheer about it. As all this unfolds, please remember to be patient with the people you are buying from and are delivering to you... they are unlikely to have wanted any of this to happen either.
It’s important to note that while consumers may “get shafted”… this isn’t by the bike companies (the likes of YT don’t want their bikes to cost you more.. it’s not helping them)… and isn’t by the couriers (they will have to charge more, but that’s because they have more red tape to deal with)… the people shafting consumers are the politicians… specifically UK politicians… and what’s amazing is that they get so many of us to cheer about it. As all this unfolds, please remember to be patient with the people you are buying from and are delivering to you… they are unlikely to have wanted any of this to happen either.
Yep understand who is doing the shafting.
According to Cy Taiwan tariffs have reduced from 4.7% to 4% so the definitive answer is NO.
...the people shafting consumers are the politicians… specifically UK politicians… and what’s amazing is that they get so many of us to cheer about it. As all this unfolds, please remember to be patient with the people you are buying from and are delivering to you… they are unlikely to have wanted any of this to happen either.
Without stepping onto the brexit thread, the politicians are carrying out what the majority of the UK population voted for. The UK population are shafting themselves.
Without stepping onto the brexit thread, the politicians are carrying out what the majority of the UK population voted for. The UK population are shafting themselves.
Actually, at the last GE the majority of the population voted for pro-remain parties.
Unless you mean the non-binding joke of a referendum held in 2016.
BruceWee
Actually, at the last GE the majority of the population voted for pro-remain parties.
Bit of a stretch to categorise Labour as pro-remain, given they have never actually done anything constructive in terms of opposing Brexit.
Unless you mean the non-binding joke of a referendum held in 2016.
Sigh... in which just over one quarter of the UK population voted to shaft themselves.
Bit of a stretch to categorise Labour as pro-remain,
https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-labours-manifesto-explained/
The point is that it was definitely a minority of the population who voted for the current shit-show.