[Closed] Bogtrotters ride the Ben on a bank holiday!

"[i]Did I watch the wrong video? ... The riders ... appeared to slow down for everyone they passed.[/i]"

Yup, sounds like you were watching the wrong video, or at least different bits of it to me.

"[i]Sanny - no one is saying don't go on the Ben - people are saying don't do it when its busy. [/i]"

And don't ride like a dick.

Hmm = an interesting one this. I got flamed a few months ago for "suggesting" that high mountains (eg BN or Helvellyn) were not the best places for MTBs. Perhaps the Mountain in MTB is a misnomer. Yes, I like riding bikes and I like riding in the Lakes etc but I personally always feel a little uncomfortable even riding on Loughrigg!! But this video made me uncomfortable mainly due to the lack of respect shown to walkers on the way up. Basic politeness and consideration surely.

But before we get too dogmatic and personal - why the flak here and not for the sweary Northerners. Great last video on St Sunday Crag to watch, but some of the same issues. Riding on the edge of paths, obvious examples of erosion by tyres on the grass edges etc and this is in the Lakes? Plus the guys who come belting past walkers on Helvellyn (or anywhere) are just as bad IMO

Not sure what the exact answer is here. But this is a common sense FAIL surely? Sometimes we (MTBers) are our own worst enemy!

"[i]WONT SOMEONE THINK OF THE IMAGE!!!![/i]"

Hasn't it already been repeatedly mentioned that responsible use is entrenched in Scottish access law?

There's a fine line between "image" and posing genuine risk to people through things like failing to anticipate things like unseen children who may appear from groups or partially-able people who may be unable to react quickly to a bike approaching at 20mph, failing to understand the danger of closely passing people stood on a highly exposed slope edge, and posting videos with subtitled comments that include "if he hadn't moved out of the way I'd definitely have killed him".

billysugger - Member

Agreed it was a stupid time to do it but reading this thread it definitely is the new golf isn't it.

You will find the folk complaining have an awful lot of experience in the mountains. NOt newbs at all

Its the whole point its the wrong time to do this

live and let live but im a firm believer of when in other countrys respect their culture , guidelines and laws. - i think this falls under that.

of course simon and his bogtrotters are their own principality and answers only to themselves it seems

.

"if he hadn't moved out of the way I'd definitely have killed him".

I took this to be a pop at the above linked sensationalist article. I mean 'ripping up the Ben'. I bet that day's weather moved more rock than they did.

I can't believe some people are defending these morons. Saying 'thanks' when steaming past people at 20mph and putting people in danger does not make it ok.

Uncomfortable viewing.

Watched a bit more of the video and some of it is totally out of order and just stupid IMO. Way too close and way too fast at many points.

I don't see what that has to do with golf.

I'd just like to state I don't defend them. I don't even see the point to be honest 15ish mph for minutes on end like riding a jackhammer, can't see the fun.

It's just all this talk of image I object to. I ride because it's fun. I have for 20+ years and I will do if MTBs have a good/bad image. Just be courteous but don't pander to them. They could have stopped and let every single walker past but some would still probably have looked at them like they were in the wrong for being on 'their' mountain.

with subtitled comments that include "if he hadn't moved out of the way I'd definitely have killed him".

that was ironic

"[i]They could have stopped and let every single walker past but some would still probably have looked at them like they were in the wrong for being on 'their' mountain. [/i]"

So what? In what way is this a defence of riding like a dick who puts other people at risk?

I'd just like to state I don't defend them

Stop frothing man

I can't believe some people are defending these morons. Saying 'thanks' when steaming past people at 20mph and putting people in danger does not make it ok.

Uncomfortable viewing.

+1

I'm no poster boy for access campaigns, but even I think that looked stupid.

But then I do admit there is a point that if you're allowed to be there then you're allowed to be there on a bank holliday. Hypotheticaly if MTB was really popular and hundreds of MTB'ers rode it then would a minority of walkers get stick for being there on a busy bank holliday?

"[i]that was ironic [/i]"

Well I had no clue that it was, but my comment still stands.

what a bunch of dicks (the riders on Ben Nevis that is).

I'd just like to state I don't defend them

shut it then two inch

"[i]if you're allowed to be there then you're allowed to be there on a bank holliday[/i]"

That's not been in dispute, though, has it?

You're *allowed* to be a pedestrian on the pavement but if you put on American football gear and run down a narrow pavement on the last shopping day before Christmas expecting everyone to jump out of the way then that would make you a prize dick.

But then I do admit there is a point that if you're allowed to be there then you're allowed to be there on a bank holliday. Hypotheticaly if MTB was really popular and hundreds of MTB'ers rode it then would a minority of walkers get stick for being there on a busy bank holliday?

No, because the access code dictates that cyclists give way to walkers. Also, walkers are never going to be endangering and scaring others by going 20mph+ down busy and not very wide sections of path.

You're *allowed* to be a pedestrian on the pavement but if you put on American football gear and run down a narrow pavement on the last shopping day before Christmas expecting everyone to jump out of the way then that would make you a prize dick.

Well put. 🙂

shut it then two inch

?

You been speaking to the mrs?

Bez - Member

"if you're allowed to be there then you're allowed to be there on a bank holliday"

That's not been in dispute, though, has it?

You're *allowed* to be a pedestrian on the pavement but if you put on American football gear and run down a narrow pavement on the last shopping day before Christmas expecting everyone to jump out of the way then that would make you a prize dick.

🙂

At what point do they pass walkers at 20mph? I think there is perhaps more than a little bit of exaggeration if you think they are going anywhere near that fast. What I find uncomfortable in this thread are some of the name calling and what comes across, perhaps unintentionally, as a bit of anti English sentiment. Poor show chaps.

You been speaking to the mrs?

😀

No, because the access code dictates that cyclists give way to walkers. Also, walkers are never going to be endangering and scaring others by going 20mph+ down busy and not very wide sections of path.

"The law is an ass" and all that.

You're *allowed* to be a pedestrian on the pavement but if you put on American football gear and run down a narrow pavement on the last shopping day before Christmas expecting everyone to jump out of the way then that would make you a prize dick.

"[i]At what point do they pass walkers at 20mph? I think there is perhaps more than a little bit of exaggeration if you think they are going anywhere near that fast.[/i]"

15:50-16:10.

I only watched a minute or two around the middle of the video so there may or may not be others.

Sanny - I know you have respect for the mountains - would you ride the Ben on a busy bank holiday?

Whilst there is hyperbole about the speed and danger of the riders its still inconsiderate and selfish not reasonable and responsible to have ridden there in the manner they did at that sort of level of traffic on the path. You should be passing walkers at near walking pace giving way to them on the narrow rocky sections.

I meet this thread with complete indifference. could they have chosen a better date/time? yes they could. did they come across as rude and obnoxious? not in the slightest. is this thread going to top 1000 posts by the end of today? yes more than likely!

Deleted - just pointless arguing with the truly selfish.

You should be passing walkers at near walking pace giving way to them on the narrow rocky sections.

They mostly were. Couple of bits where they were faster but not the 20+mph quoted on here. At no point were they yelling MOVE!!! (or STRAVA!!! 😉 ) it looked like they were ready to stop if the need arose and at a couple of points they did. I think they could have chosen a better time but maybe they didn't anticipate it would be quite that busy. Their behaviour and manner though were relatively responsible and polite.

Besides you're doing this "they MUST give way" argument again. It's not set in stone, it's a very grey area. Is it easier for a walker to take one step to the side or for the MTber to stop? If it's a narrow steep rocky path then (a), the walker steps over. If it's a nice sedate gradient on a smoother trail then (b), it's easier for the MTBer to stop and then get started again.

You know as well as I do that stopping and getting started again on a steep technical descent can be nearly impossible and in those instances, the "rule" of who gives way is far more blurred than you're making out.

stopping and getting started again on a steep technical descent can be nearly impossible

Are we expecting ascending hikers to know that? Seems faintly unreasonable to expect other people to make allowances for the limitations of your chosen conveyance and skillz 😉

"Besides you're doing this "they MUST give way" argument again. It's not set in stone,"

no your right - in england its set in stone with a you cant ride here. Stunts like this give people like that ammo to pursue similar rules in scotland. Its about maintaining our land access rules for future generations - the land access is one of the few things stopping me moving to new zealand.

Irresponsible tourists there caused land access rules to be tightened and permits to be ENFORCED ruthlessly !

in england its set in stone with a you cant ride here

For the most part, it's "you have no right to ride here and could in theory be sued by the landowner if you do". Which is somewhat different to "can't".

I think you'll find that the Bogtrotters are fairly well known for not giving a shit about access issues, or any subsequent problems that may ensue.

As long as they had a good time, Eh?

THIS
Bunch of irresponisible cocks who only think of themseleves.Sadly it is people like this that mean others legislate as they just dont give a shit what others think or how their behaviour affects others.
I once bumped into them up Rivi and ended up riding in a group with them as we were going the same way. we passed as stopped cyclist and a boggy asked if they were ok
"no" they shouted and they boggy just rode on. I asked if he said no thinking i might have misheard - He confirmed he said no and they just rode off. I stopped and helped - it weas winter and dark as well,

Much as I like SFB MTB would be better served if the Boggies just stopped ...not far short of irresponsible vandalism - famous pics of them churning up a footpath in winter mud ...pointless to debate as they dont care what others think.
I will not ride with them.

"[i]Are we expecting ascending hikers to know that?[/i]"

+1

"[i]If it's a narrow steep rocky path then (a), the walker steps over.[/i]"

It's not that simple. As the video shows, sometimes this forces walkers to step over to points where they have limited room to move. Why is it the default position that the more technical the terrain, the more the walker has to put themselves at risk because of a bike that's effectively using gravity to bully its way through? To me it seems little different to a car or van bullying bicycles into a verge or a hedge on a singletrack road, just because they're the ones with momentum.

*If* walkers voluntarily step into a safe position when you're descending and they do so well in advance of you passing, then fine, that's often what happens and it works. But in that video there appeared to be a lot of ploughing on under assumption.

Fundamentally it's the rider that makes the choice to descend a popular walking trail at peak time, and if they make the choice to continue with that when they knowingly can't or won't stop and therefore choose "walker gives way" as their default position then that makes them a dick IMO. You don't just go into a steep and technical section where you're potentially on the edge of control, where several people are walking up, on the assumption that people can and will move aside in time.

Also, there is an argument of MTFU and learn to trackstand or trials-hop or get started on steeper stuff. If all you can do is keep ploughing on, trusting in the suspension to see you through the rock garden, and you can't bring the bike under control, stick to bike-specific runs or get better at technical riding. If you can't start again, tough, get over it - it's not an excuse for riding like a dick.

Quite a while ago, when I was working as an Access Officer up in Scotland as the Land Reform Act came into force, I wrote an article for Singletrack on what it meant for mountain bikers.

The same applied then as to now, it's just basic common sense. If you're on your bike, consider avoiding a very busy walkers route on a bank holiday (especially one which is more likely to be used by less experiened tourists), if you're a dog walker, consider avoiding going along a route mainly used by mtb'ers on a day when they have an informal event.

It's really not rocket science is it? Think about where you're going, who else is likely to be affected by you being there, consider whether you're likely to cause excessive erosion if it's very wet and you're crossing boggy ground, and make an appropriate decision.

Most of all, responsible access tends to be the most enjoyable access 🙂 After all, surely most of us would prefer to not ride a path packed with walkers?

So just out of interest, what if that had been two fell runners, would the walkers have been as outraged..?

This is why the Sonwdon Ban works so well.

Sorry lads, but you must be mad riding the Ben on a Bank Holiday. Barking mad.

so lets turn it the other way - imagine the uproar if i took my hypothetical walking club out for a walk on glentress red or down the downhill track at fort william on a busy bank holiday sunday - responsible access says there is nothing anyone can do to stop me doing so.

i can just see the eruption on here on monday morning from the audi brigade at glentress

works both ways

responsible access says there is nothing anyone can do to stop me doing so.

In what sense would taking a large group hiking up a World Cup DH track on a weekend be "responsible"?

case point set and match !

I am at a loss to understand how this might be achieved. It would certainly be very expensive to implement. I suspect you are invoking the bogey man!

The LRA is either under review or soon to be under review (I think). While this one 'incident' will unlikely directly influence anything, it all adds to the sum of experience of outdoor users in Scotland. On this basis, the Government may decide to impose restrictions or tighten the wording of the LRA, in order to avoid grey areas such as riding against the tide of 1000+ walkers on a bank holiday on the busiest mountain in the country.

Restrictions have already been imposed (see camping at Loch Lomond) due to problems with irresponsible behavior. So it CAN happen. Besides, when Scotland's independent we'll have oodles and oodles of spare cash to pay for implementing restrictions 😉

what if that had been two fell runners, would the walkers have been as outraged..?

Fell runners would have been slower, lighter and without a foot of rigid bar sticking out either side of them and hence would have considerably diminished ability to actually hurt anyone. I expect they could still cause outrage simply by running straight at people and yelling 😉

I've just watched the video (skipped through good chunks) and read this thread whilst eating my lunch (Oxtail soup and chunky bread), it's made me laugh. So much anger and arrogance on both sides of the argument. I'm sure this isn't what the inventors of the internet had in mind. Chill out people. Either that or meet up in a car pack and have a good old fashioned real fight.

case point set and match !

Either we're playing different games or one of our points is not what the other thinks it is 🙂

In what sense would taking a large group hiking up a World Cup DH track on a weekend be "responsible"?

in the same sense that taking six slightly out of control mincing power rangers careering down a narrow rocky path populated by thousands of walkers on a bank holiday is 'responsible'

mrbaldyheads fistycuffs in the carpark suggestion gets my unwavering support.. 😀