Hi,
I sold my bike through ebay and used a local courier to send it. I thought that I'd packaged it securely, with tonnes of bubble wrap, but the buyer at the other end sent me pictures of large chips that weren't there when I sent it. There was also a massive scratch on the suspension fork crown. I've sent numerous bikes through the post and know how to pack a bike.
He said that the wheel must have come loose in transit, which is possible, though I cannot understand how this would have scratched the crown. The scratch pictured behind the crank might have been there when I sent it, but the others categorically were not. The bike was As New and had only been ridden a few times on the road and it was sold for £500 including postage. Ebay fees and courier costs are to set me back about £120. He is asking for a refund of £150 to cover the costs of putting the faults right. He's quoting me £35 for some Specialized touch up paint and the cost of his labour. Apparently the local bike shops he went to won't do the work for him, so he's doing it himself. He quote me over £200 for a local garage to paint the bike.
I know if push comes to shove, ebay will tell me to take the bike back, which will mean another £60 courier fee to get it back to me. The courier are refusing to cover the damage as they're arguing that it was improperly packaged.
I'll likely end up having to pay it, but wondered whether there was at least a cheaper option than the Specialized paint? It's hyper green and I would have thought some florescent paint from a model shop would have been suitable for the task.
My standard response in cases like this is to not get into any discussion and simply say “send it back for a full refund”, 100% of the time the problem suddenly goes away.
Maybe, just maybe, the buyer has caused some damage so they can sting you for a discount.
Suck it up I reckon. The buyer seems to have been reasonable in not just getting you to do a full refund. I don't think they should also have to put up with an imperfect paint match.
I'll likely end up having to pay it, but wondered whether there was at least a cheaper option than the Specialized paint? It's hyper green and I would have thought some florescent paint from a model shop would have been suitable for the task.
Unlucky :cry:. In this situation it's the buyers call on whether that is acceptable or not. I suspect he might think that since this is not his fault, he might as well have the best fix. Of course, he might be taking advantage too, to get as much money back as possible, but not much you can do about it without taking the whole thing back and absorbing the costs.
£35 and £115 for the buyer to use touch up paint it!?
Was it insured with the courier?
£35 for paint - ok, a bit pricey.
£115 for [b]his[/b] labour? Ha, that's a pisstake!
He signed for it, so legally accepted the delivery. If there was no external damage to the box, then I'd want a photo of the 'loose' wheel as proof. Otherwise I think you've got a chancer who has purposefully damaged the bike with an eye to a partial refund.
Offer refund on return of the bike, and there's a high possibility that he'll go away. If he does return it then use a different courier....£60 is double what I've paid in the past, even including insurance.
*edit....just had a look on Parcelmonkey. Prices between £31 and £39 for a bike box weighing up to 20KG.
My standard response in cases like this is to not get into any discussion and simply say “send it back for a full refund”, 100% of the time the problem suddenly goes away.
Might be worth a try
whether there was at least a cheaper option than the Specialized paint?
Specialized don't offer touch up paint.
I'd offer him £50 tops or tell him to return it.
He's having a laugh charging £115 for labour!!
How long had the buyer been in possession of the bike before reporting the damage?
This just sounds like a chancer to me. I'd tell him to send it back too.
He's quoting me £35 for some Specialized touch up paint and the cost of his labour.
The cost of his labour? For touching up paint? Assuming he was getting a good price for the bike I'd expect him to live with a bit of time for touching it up. Paying the cost of the paint, fair enough.
So a £500 sale - £120 fees, minus £150 refund. £230 actual cash for the bike. if it was me I'd offer to pay the cost of the paint or alternatively tell him to send it back for a refund.
Where was the wheel when you packed it up? Where is the damage to the wheel if it's done that to the fork brace. I can see the marks on the stay maybe but even those don't look right. Do you think he has crashed it or was the time difference between him signing for the bike and sending the pics too short. I'd have taken pics with the box and the bike unbuilt if it was damaged in the post.
If it was done by the courier and insurance was paid then use it.
Woah! I saw £35 and thought was for paint [b]and[/b] his labour cost.
Offer the refund and accept the cost of courier collection etc then repost the bike in its as new condition with the exception of the superficial damage.
Sounds a bit shady to me so go with the option that gets you out of a fix with the lowest loss with the potential that the claim value will reduce once your offer is received.
As New
TBH, if this bit is true then you appear to have been sent pictures of a different bike!
I’d offer some money for the paint (not labour, maybe a few extra quid for inconvenience but no more than that) or get the bike back for a full refund.
Utterly ridiculous. I feel for you OP. But as others have said absolutely don’t pay him £125 to touch up some paint.
Sounds dodgy to me. How does wheel in a box do all that damage?
Im guessing that the box wasn't damaged at all?
First call the courier to see if you can be compensated?
2nd, tell him to return it and offer a refund. If the sale falls through eBay should refund the costs.
Then touch up the paint work yourself and re sell it on stw
As said earlier, Specialized DONT do touch up paint. No matter how much you beg them... anti counterfeit measures.
I reckon he’s taking the piss, return and refund
I'am not an expert in these (painful) issues.
But when looking very carefully at the pictures:
looks like transport damage to me. Wheel came loose? Possible.
Additional I would guess that something very heavy was on top of the bike-box moving all the transport way a bit back and forth increasing the damage.
Crash: doesn't look like a crash to me.
Costs: mmhhh. The proposed costs appear high to me as well.
Bad situation.
For you and for the customer!
But some posts indicate that maybe the customer did the damage.
Maybe a bit too quick.
Pictures: I would say minimum 80 percent that's transport damage.
Are those chippings from the fork crown on the dust seal? Bit suspicious that there's limited superficial damage in four separate locations. Are you sure you didn't attack it with a screwdriver before packaging it up?
Most of those marks looks like can be caused by a couple of bikes on a bike rack and not been tied down correctly!
Again, as above, how far apart from when he signed it and them sending pics back to you?
(how clean was the drive train when you sent it? as the chain ring is dirty?)
The first photo looks like what happens when the chain sticks to the chainring and gets squashed up against the chainstay.
If he raises a PayPal dispute you’ll almost certainly loose so take that into account in your response. If you offer a refund straight away then you are on to a winner bar your carriage costs etc.
My standard response in cases like this is to not get into any discussion and simply say “send it back for a full refund”,
This, personally I’d rather end up a few quid out of pocket on another courier than end up feeling like someone had got one over on me.
The buyer was in possession of it for a few days before reporting the damage to me.
The slight problem is that I live in the Highlands and most couriers charge a premium for delivery up here.
This has all been going on for over a month and he's only just gotten back to me with a price for all this. I told him initially that I'd be willing to cover the costs of putting it right, but I thought it was going to be in the region of £40 or so, including the bike shops' labour, but I was astonished with £150. He is telling me that it is a Specialized shop that is selling him the paint at £35. I couldn't see any online and was a little skeptical with his quote.
The courier company have told me that since there was no damage to the box itself, then this was a packaging issue and is not covered with insurance.
I know that ebay will take the buyer's side in this and tell me to arrange to have it returned to me. That will leave me £120 out of pocket, plus the hassle of relisting the bike. I took pics of it immediately before putting it up for sale, and the bike was immaculate.
I took pics of it immediately before putting it up for sale, and the bike was immaculate.
TBH, after looking at the ebay listing, this isn't quite true. You also listed it as "new other" which is nowhere close TBH.
"A new, unused item with absolutely no signs of wear. The item may be missing its original packaging, or the original packaging has been opened or is no longer sealed. The item may be a factory second, or a new and unused item with minor defects. See the seller’s listing for full details and description of any imperfections."
Let's assume it is courier damage (and how can you prove he is lying?), he must be well peeved. He was buying an as-new bike not a painting project. It was your responsibility to insure the post so down to you to claim. And he would be entitled to a refund of his return postage costs.
Are you sure you didn't attack it with a screwdriver before packaging it up
this I doubt.
Most of those marks looks like can be caused by a couple of bikes on a bike rack and not been tied down correctly!
Good point. This might be possible as well!
But no crash / no screwdriver thing.
Didn't think about the
so.bike rack
I agree with you regarding the category I listed it in on ebay. I completely stand by my description of it as As New though, as there was not a mark on it, save for a few scratches on the righthand crank which I clearly mention in the description and included a photo of. How else was it "nowhere close" to immaculate, as you put it?
I felt utterly awful when the guy got in touch with me originally. He absolutely did not buy a painting project and should have got a spotless bike. I go out of my way to make sure buyers are happy and was gutted that the bike had arrived in such a state. There just isn't any way to know for sure, save for my having wrapped the bike and wheels in many layers of bubble wrap.
That damage on the fork brace to me looks like it's been skimmed over with a small grinding disc ie a dremel. Looks like it's bounced a bit as they have attempted to remove the paint. Might be totally wrong mind you.
Looking at the tyres it seems unlikely that it's been ridden before those photos were taken. On the downtube, it looks like flecks of paint are still on the cabling.
I would think that it is probably damaged in transit, and you are responsible for the packing. We all know you can't trust a courier as far as you can chuck a bike in a box.
I still think the suggested repair cost is a bit high, and the price of the paint smells off, but it's three smallish scratches to the frame and some black on the fork. Ignoring the chain suck.
I suggest trying to come to a better agreement with the buyer.
How else was it "nowhere close" to immaculate, as you put it?
I said it was nowhere close to "new other". It could've been, but you used it! It's used! There's a specific category for that.
The pictures are poor, but you can see the chainstay scratch, along with some other marks. The chain also looks pretty manky, not what I'd expect from something that's "as new".
I'd ask them to send the bike back and refund, then sell locally. Posting a bike seems like a lot of hassle, and there's always potential for something like this to happen.
I'm not doubting the buyer's side of the story, although the bike rack/transport damage could be a possibility. But how many people do you really think would be so dishonest? Not many I'd have thought; I've never encountered any buying/selling.
That damage on the fork brace to me looks like it's been skimmed over with a small grinding disc ie a dremel. Looks like it's bounced a bit as they have attempted to remove the paint. Might be totally wrong mind you.
What're your views on 9/11?
Yes, that's just daft, cassette possibly?
"the region of £40 or so, including the bike shops' labour,"
You are living in the middle of now were and out of touch with bike shops!!
Prob be at lest a good couple of hours to do a half a good job, sand the blurs, paint back, mask it all up, prim it, what to dry, couple of coats of primer, maybe some more fine sanding before final colour, blend it in, few coats of final colour, maybe a Lacquer coat as well!
And that's off the top of my head and I am no paint sprayer etc, £40 prob be most bike shop hour rate!
Thou I am with someof the people above, of sod it send it back, I take the hit, but maybe a counter offer of a refund to make it go away, save you having to sort the damage out and then having to re sell it (how long did it take to sell in the first place, a long time?)
Lol just saying that as an apprentice trained fabricator it looks like marks from a small grinder by someone trying to be delicate.
Don't start me off on 9/11 haha.
But how many people do you really think would be so dishonest? Not many I'd have thought; I've never encountered any buying/selling.
I have. There are some nasty people out there unfortunately.
Its easy to sign for something without any obvious damage to the packaging. Something shifting around inside rubbing, or a crush in the van might be damage thats not possible to see damage to the bike when it gets delivered. You try telling a courier to hang on whilst you unwrap a whole bike and check it over for damage....
It's £50 quid off for the damage, full stop, or a refund and return. If you've got pictures of the box damaged then you might have a claim against the courier. Though badly packed (and I'm not saying you did) isnt a claim in their eyes.
I have experienced some people being utter rogues on ebay previously, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility that this is what has happened here. It's impossible to prove, and there is the possibility that it was the courier being rough with the box. Strange that there was no damage to the box itself, I guess. Thank you all for the responses.
The buyer is taking the piss IMHO. Assuming it was damaged in transit, £150 for a couple of scratches on a £500 bike is avin' a larf (which then makes me doubt the rest of his story somewhat).
Don't fanny about, just offer him a refund. I wouldn't be giving him a red cent, the whole thing stinks.
There just isn't any way to know for sure, save for my having wrapped the bike and wheels in many layers of bubble wrap.
Even if the bike box is stored correctly in the back of the van, anything, [i]anything[/i], loose in the box can cause a lot of damage. Bubble wrap is inadequate. Plumbers pipe insulation is OK, but everything needs to be strapped tight and secure. Take photos of packing as proof.
Suck it up, offer him a full refund and put it down to experience.
Bikes are normally posted with the front wheel slipped over the left hand arm and zip tided in place so it’s odd to see marks on the right hand side.
But it’s also not unusual to see the back of parcel vans with bike boxes stacked the wrong way with the bottom one getting crushed , normally the most costly one on the bottom !
Oh and Spesh don’t sell paint
Assembled the bike first before complaining? Hmm.
Yeah, he's trying it on. It's a very common scam to claim repairs for damage to get it much cheaper. He'll patch it up and use it or more likely sell it for a profit.
Or he's assembled it and damaged it in the process, in use, or as mentioned while fitting to a rack.
I can't see any way a loose wheel would cause the fork damage. Chain stay damage actually looks like from a jammed chain,though it sounds like you admit that may have already been there, despite claiming as new, which puts you in a difficult position there.
As suggested just offer return and full refund.
To me, those photos (not the first one) look like damage from a disc rotor. Did you remove them before packing the wheels in the box?
BTW I’d agree that bubble wrap is next to useless when it comes to heavy metal parts banging together (eg bike bits). The damage on the forks is in an odd place if the wheel was strapped to the side, it looks to me as if something was banging against the forks - looks like a series of circular chips as the item hitting the forks moved about.
It’s a nightmare packaging bikes for transit. I won’t do it anymore as I find it very time consuming, I like to pack them so they can survive being dropped, stamped on, buried under hundreds of Kgs of other packages etc.
Looks like the buyer has damaged it and now chancing his arm! Which he will likely succeed with due to Ebay and PayPal’s ridiculous practices. Not helped yourself selling it ‘New -other’ when it isn’t and wa in fact used.
If it were me I would tell the buyer to return it to me for a refund. It’s one of the reasons I only sell on eBay cash on collection.
Bit of a mess of a situation, god knows what really happened.
But those markings to the fork must have took a bit of doing whatever happened, as mentioned looks like a grinder has had a go at it or something, reckon you'd struggle to get as good a marks is on it just now swinging the thing against a lamppost half a dozen times.
My take having viewed the photos...
The fork brace damage could have been a cassette. The damage shows vertical lines spaced evenly on it, which look a similar distance apart to cassette spacing.
For these to make sense, the fork would have to be turned 90 degrees to the left and the rear wheel packed on the right, cassette facing inwards and next to the fork brace. This also lines the cassette up with the damage on the downtube, with the cassette sitting between the fork brace and downtube when packed.
The damage on the fork brace being done by a disc rotor could also be plausible, with a wheel packed in the same way with the rotor facing in.
I think the OP can ascertain the cause of the damage just by thinking about how they packed the bike, was it packed how I've suggested? Fork turned left and a wheel to the right of the frame/fork?
Return for full refund is a costly option overall as you'll end up paying to have a damaged bike shipped back to you... which may also get damaged again. I'd offer full refund and return but hope the buyer requests less compensation, settle that then just draw a line under it. Life is too short
As Simondbarnes and others
whether there was at least a cheaper option than the Specialized paint?
Specialized don't offer touch up paint.
So, since Spesh touch up paint don't exist, £35 quotes for it are BS. At this point the whole thing starts to sound off. Bike box not damaged, you say? Hm. There's a lot of possibilities for how the damage has occurred, but when the proposed remedy involves figures based on lies, I'd be thinking someone was chancing their luck. Leaving the fictitious pain cost aside, the labour for the repair actually doesn't sound insane. Tough call.
Buyer probably chucked the bike in the back of his car, without any thought to it moving about. Cassette or disc damaged the fork brace.
Don't fanny about, just offer him a refund. I wouldn't be giving him a red cent, the whole thing stinks.
This.
That damage on the fork crown looks deliberate. If you zip tied the front wheel to the frame in transit there is no way that its coming off.
I always send a bike with the rear wheel in place and the front wheel cable tied to the frame.
He's at it, call his bluff. Ask him to send it back for a full refund. As above don't give him a single penny.
I suspect you'll be met with radio silence.
Rips my knitting out this kind of thing.
It’s a nightmare packaging bikes for transit. I won’t do it anymore as I find it very time consuming, I like to pack them so they can survive being dropped, stamped on, buried under hundreds of Kgs of other packages etc.
It needn't be. We package hundreds of bikes every year (20+ on some days) for delivery by TNT couriers. No bubble wrap though. Plumbing insulation, some other foam and a few zipties. It helps that we have our own boxes made up that mean we don't have to remove wheels.
Most damage we see from bikes arriving in the workshop is from cassettes hitting frame and/or forks - and the marks look just like the ones on the OPs forks.
Or of course he could be telling the truth. Happened to me - received a bike that hadn't been packed well and the cassette had scratched up the fork stanchion and the frame. Initially the seller was very good and said I could send it back, the problem was I had already sold my old bike so would be bikeless. I was wanting money off to the value of a stanchion repair.
Point is, he seemed like a decent bloke, I don't think I'm that bad a bloke - we would both have preferred a hassle free transaction, but these things happen. Why not point him in the direction of this thread and suggest that the STW collective decide the course of action and value of any compensation to him.
Looks to me like cassette damage on the forks and disc on the other bits barring the crank bit which is clearly old
If I had a bike turn up like that I'd not even want a part refund I'd be sending it straight back. Who on earth would cause that much damage for a bit of money off. He's probably worked out what it's worth now with the paint damage and asked for a refund of the amount lost and probably hoping you ask for it back, I know I'd not want it. I don't blame him at all for that
Most damage we see from bikes arriving in the workshop is from cassettes hitting frame and/or forks - and the marks look just like the ones on the OPs forks.
agree
BTW I’d agree that bubble wrap is next to useless
agree
.It’s a nightmare packaging bikes for transit. I won’t do it anymore as I find it very time consuming, I like to pack them so they can survive being dropped, stamped on, buried under hundreds of Kgs of other packages etc
agree.
Shipping is very tough to the bikes. Sometimes very hard to understand why it's so tough onto the equipment.
Bubble wrap is inadequate
This.
If you've got wheels in with a frame, you have to put something to stop the axles from grinding against everything. A folded piece of cardboard works great.
I had a chap send me a carbon road bike wrapped in some bubble wrap and a dirty t-shirt. The axle from the front wheel rubbed a hole in the frame. The guy told me it was packed well and the courier's fault. I got nothing back from him, £150 would have made me feel a bit better.
Pay the money and take the lesson about packing bikes properly.
The axle from the front wheel rubbed a hole in the frame.
sounds crazy but it's that way.
Courier van / truck: shit rear suspension and they don't secure the boxes. Stuff smashes around all the time in the rear... Really great if heavy boxes fall on top and jump all the time up and down on your bike...
Is this "professional transport / courier service"?
I doubt.
But the drivers are normally in a too big hurry to really care.
I'll repeat - we send out hundreds of bikes every year by TNT. We don't have issues of bikes turning up damaged and I doubt that TNT drivers are that much different from the rest.
There a reason brand new bikes are packaged with the rear wheel in the frame and no front disc fitted. If your sending one then I suggest following this. Also very little bubble wrap used, sometimes some foam padding but this will have cardboard on top. Other places just protected by cardboard. Oh and as said above front wheel zip tied in place, as are bars when not fitted.
I gave the buyer a partial refund, which was what they asked for. This thread confirmed my feeling that there was a possibility that this actually was damage that was sustained during transit, so I didn't mind doing so on this occasion. Annoying though, for bother buyer and seller. I think I'll get the local bike shop to pack any bikes I might sell going forward.
The perils of selling on eBay. Never worth the hassle.