[Closed] Best on bike carbs (circa 50g hit)...

MALTLOAF!!!

Jelly babies, my brand of choice for last year or so is Tesco's own, 250g bags. 79.7g of carbs per 100g, of which 64.6g is sugars. Ate a bag on my ~5 hour ride around Longleat area hills last Thurs while riding, plus a Nature Valley bar during a sit down break on a bench on Water Lane (Horningsham).

I love maltloaf off the bike, but find it too chewy while riding, babies just "melt" and give an energy boost very quickly for me.

Small individual Soreen bars have 17g carbs each

Belvita soft grain breakfast bars have 30g each

One drink of SIS Beta Fuel (80g) and 1 30g gel would do 110g for you, particularly a Torq Gel in the first hours as they contain Fructose. For those doses you need to mix Glucose and Fructose (you're limited to 60ghr of glucose absorption otherwise), most of the Jelly babies you find don't contain that.

Jelly babies / sweets are mostly sugar, so find some fructose to add to it for your 120g.

Small individual Soreen bars have 17g carbs each

If he wants 120g an hour (which to me is too much unless you are racing) then that would require 7 per hour or one every eight and a half minutes for your entire ride which is a bit ridiculous and would certainly give me indigestion and I have an iron stomach. That's why maltodextrin is the best on-bike carb form.

I buy generic bulk maltodextrin, I put it in bottles with some orange squash. You can also get generic fructose to go in it but the results were too sweet for me.

Jelly babies / sweets are mostly sugar, so find some fructose to add to it for your 120g.

When 'sugar' is listed as an ingredient it generally means 'Sucrose'. Molecules of sucrose are a molecule of glucose and a molecule of fructose just holding hands.

Not sure what impact that has on absorbtion and whatnot (you need to digest the sucrose a bit to form glucose and sucrose) but I'd be wary looking for more fructose if you're fuelling on jelly babies.

Too much fructose can make your ride unpleasant for yourslef and those you are with.

In the highest quality of Jelly babies there is 0.5% fruit juice, so not enough of a ratio to be making a difference to absorption - it needs to be closer to 30%.

which to me is too much unless you are racing

This is an good point, and a more than 1-2hr race at high effort too, OP what is it that your doing that requires so much carbs?

I make a gooey flapjack style thing with dates cherries sultanas coconut syrup sugar egg butter and flour. Just like the chewy bar sold at Marquis Drive on Cannock Chase.
It's always palatable, the problem is that it's all gone before you get half way through the ride.

Millionaires shortbread is a solid sugar hit, might be messy if it's a hot day though.

I currently eat getbuzzing oat bars from Waitrose which are a bit moist, each 62g bar gives 257kcal, 41.2g of carbs of which 24.7g is sugar. So one every half hour for you (I eat less).

You need to get fat adapted bro - unless you're racing/riding at repeated high intensities then your body can be happily burning fat with no need for on the bike carbs at all (ride length dependant obvs).

"You need to get fat adapted bro " Well, I got fat, so I'm half way there 😉 Just need the adapted bit and I'm good to go

You need to get fat adapted bro – unless you’re racing/riding at repeated high intensities then your body can be happily burning fat with no need for on the bike carbs at all (ride length dependant obvs).

This. If you're having to "ride the sugar train" (four gels an hour!?) in order to be able to "chug the moors", that's sounds pretty unhealthy.

[gross oversimplification for sake of point-making]Racers need gels. Normal people need sandwiches[/gross oversimplification for sake of point-making]

You need to get fat adapted bro

This. You could make your life so much easier. Doesn't mean some kind of extreme keto hell - just the ability for a handful of nuts with a few raisins to give you an hour's worth of pedalling, and save the massive sugar hit for emergencies. You won't get the insta-buzz of pure sugar, but you won't get the massive trough when it burns out either.

Thanks for your feedback team singletrack. Some interesting 'opinions' being banded about. The OP was in reference to riding hard, I'd love to have the time to pootle about stopping for a leisurely cucumber sandwich☺️ Although there was a British olympian that won a medal on jam sandwiches aledgedly?! 😆

As we are all physiologically different there is no one fix for all wrt carb dosaging. Personally I've found the suggested 80g/h to be way too light for me (120g is a bit much in all honesty) and I can feel it over longer more fatiguing rides. Through experience I have learned what works for me, I wasn't really looking for health advice just ideas for on bike snackery.

I've used sis beta fuel but find I benefit from a combo including solids. Might just go down the Sagan/Haribo route... Hasn't done him any harm 🤔😚

For high output the human body requires to burn the carbohydrate flame, every piece of literature I've read (and there's a lot of it) supports this. Unless you're an ultra endurance athlete where pacing is the key and load is below threshold. I am fat adapted and ride with the bare minimum and a double espresso before starting at times... That's not what this post is about 😏

What's "speedload"?

If it's a hard ride, I add sugar at 5g per 100ml to my bottles, in additon to a SIS hydro tablet. Find it easier to drink the carbs than eat them.

Not sure if this is bad. Proepr sports drinks use Maltodexterin. But I've suffered no adverse affects

You could use Maltodexterin at high quantities as it's not so sweet tasting

You talk about 4 hour rides "chugging around" and needing to pump in sugar...

A few things already mentioned are that it is doubtful your body can actually use that much carbs per hour, especially for that length of time, and also you don't say why you believe to have that need. Anecdotal?

It will sound harsh but more likely a combination of being overweight(?) and "unfit" relative to what you are trying to do is having you dig really deep and feel sh..t and the sugar is giving a short lived boosted feeling but not really doing that much.

Just to give you another opinion you won't want to hear, ride more, drink more fluids and eat proper food.

I didn't believe it either but it is easy to have a watered down energy drink and a bit of pre- portioned sausage roll or ham sandwich in your back pockets and get them in every half an hour on the move. Ride more, get fitter, lose weight without knowing and things get exponentially easier. World of difference.

FYI I'm 92kg with 12% body fat.

The day I start thinking about needing energy gels or powerbars is the day I find another sport to try.

If you don't need gels occasionally you don't do a sport you have a hobby ;-).

Op

I'd recommend reading the literature on the issues of high carb concentrations, gastric emptying and the impact on performance.

Try cyclic dextrin mixes.

@continuity

Thanks, I'll give it a look.

Even if you are "fat adapted" or riding Z2 and below burning mostly fat, anything you eat other than short chain carbs during a ride is not going to used by the body until hours later because the digestion and absorption times for proteins and fats are measured in hours rather than the minutes for glucose.

The OP sound like they are riding at high pace where their gut isn't going to be tolerating anything other than short chain carbs and their metabolism is burning carbs for the majority or energy production. At similar intensities I like jam sandwiches(no butter), fruit such as plums, apricots and bananas survive quite well in my jersey pockets and are soft enough to eat while riding, a couple of tablespoons of sugar(about 25g) in per 550ml bottle is the limit in terms of sweetness for me any more and I would be looking at a Maltodextrin based drink as suggested by others. Home made porridge bars made with water oats and sweetened with dried fruit are super cheap and easy to make in the microwave.

Personally I find gels disgusting.

Really old school jam or marmalade sandwiches aren't as daft as it seems. Mix of sugar and slower release carbs and easy to eat on the bike without as much ickyness of too many sweets. Flapjacks as above are similarly good but sometimes marmalade sandwiches are easier to eat. Used to eat them a lot when I was a student and riding further but on a budget. Now time is more of an issue so I rarely need to eat on a ride.

Just eat 5 bananas an hour.

As others have said, but doesnt want to be heard, this amount of calorie intake seems nuts to me.

I mean, how do you carry the equivalent of 20 bananas for a 4 hour ride?

I did a 100 mile club run on Sunday, over fairly hilly terrain, with a decent average speed and all 7 riders carried what they needed in their jersey pockets. I think my eating habits are similar to the others, where people generally seem to try and eat one thing an hour, eg a banana, a cereal bar, a gel. I tend to just use plain water or electrolyte, but others may have energy drink too.

Back to your question, sensible things to eat on rides:
Bananas
Cereal bars (I love the Lidl porridge bars)
Dried fruit in a sandwich bag (dates, figs, apricots)
Homemade coconut rice balls (pudding rice, coconut cream, vanilla, brown sugar)
Luchos blocks (equivalent of gel but more like slightly crunchy turkish delight, wrapped in a banana leaf that you can chuck in the hedge)
Jam sandwiches
Nutella wraps

Final advice, make sure you brush your teeth when you get home if you insist on the refined sugar.

Op, are you eating well prior to exercise? That is an awful lot of carbs per hour during exercise and taking into account the various posts above, would suggest that possibly the problem to solve is pre-loading rather than trying to cram during exercise.

If it’s a hard ride, I add sugar at 5g per 100ml to my bottles, in additon to a SIS hydro tablet. Find it easier to drink the carbs than eat them.

Not sure if this is bad. Proepr sports drinks use Maltodexterin. But I’ve suffered no adverse affects

5g per 100ml isn't a lot. The benefit of maltodextrin is that you can put far more in without it a) tasting intolerably sweet and b) upsetting your stomach.

Not sure what impact that has on absorbtion and whatnot

As above, really difficult to consume that much sucrose, but much much easier with malto.

FYI I’m 92kg with 12% body fat.

Really, like actual measured in a lab 12% body fat or via a set of body fat "measuring" shop bought scales as 12% body fat puts you firmly in "athlete" category and to get there you would've had your all round nutrition absolutely nailed, unless you a skin and bones build at like 6'6" or something.

https://cyclingtips.com/2015/01/diy-sports-nutrition-2/

What’s “speedload”?

Isn't that what killed River Phoenix?

OP when you say you're "riding hard" how long are you actually riding for?

I can only speak from personal experience but up to 2 hours I'm not sure I'd need to be scoffing any extra Carbs, certainly not during the first hour, even if I was riding harder.

If I know I'm going to be riding for longer I start taking on a mixture of smaller snacks, some sugary some more savoury/salty after the first hour to give me a chance to digest and metabolise it over the second hour of riding, for it to kick in during the third and subsequent hours.

I'd tend to eat every 30-45 minutes (I have an auto reminder set on my Garmin) I doubt I ever take on more than 60g an hour tops, I'd have to be eating pretty much constantly to take on 120g of carbs, at which point I think I'd struggle to digest it in anything other than liquid form so any increase in pace, would probably be offset by needing to stop for a piss every half hour...

It might be simpler to just ride a bit slower...

There’s a huge thread on the trainerroad forum about this topic- guys on there have managed to get as much as 200g of table sugar into a bottle 🤣

It’s all I use now- plain table sugar with squash and a pinch of salt to knock the sickly edge off. Any more fructose (I used to use SIS powder) gave me gout!!

Just doing mine now for chaingang and will put 6 tablespoons in each 750ml bottle for roughly 90gx2. I’ll drink the first one on my way there (an hour easy spin) once I’m exercising so it doesn’t spike my insulin; block fat burning and make me feel sleepy. The second will be downed during the ride by about half way round. Doesn’t matter if I don’t technically “use” it all during the ride- it starts to replenish muscle glycogen on the way home and means recovery should be faster.

Interestingly, BikeRacingWithoutMercy on YouTube did a lab test and even at his zone 2 he was using OVER 100g/h of carbs!!!

(And yes I can ride fasted too- worked up to 6hr fasted rides last year by capping my power at 65% ftp.)

The entire evening will be around 1800kcals so even 700kcal of sugar is but a drop in the ocean.

It might be simpler to just ride a bit slower…

Some performance coach you'd be 🙂

12% body fat puts you firmly in “athlete” category and to get there you would’ve had your all round nutrition absolutely nailed, unless you a skin and bones build at like 6’6″ or something.

Plenty of people with that low body fat and lower that are just generally active without special training.

Really, like actual measured in a lab 12% body fat

I went to a sports science professor and he measured my body fat using calipers and IIRC three points. He said it was accurate enough. He did have fancy calipers though.

Interestingly, BikeRacingWithoutMercy on YouTube did a lab test and even at his zone 2 he was using OVER 100g/h of carbs!!!

The entire evening will be around 1800kcals so even 700kcal of sugar is but a drop in the ocean.

Yes but that's in no way the same as needing to put in over 100g per hour, otherwise you'd starve to death during your sleep.

Sorry @Dangeourbrain I don’t get how sleeping and 1000kcal/h Chaingang’s are the same thing??

Eff "offsetting glycogen loss" - burn it all off on a 3 day fast with light walking and riding, go full keto, never feel the need to ever eat (never mind sugar) again even on 10 hour rides. 🙂

Lose the top 15% of your performance tho, because balls-out is carb-burning.

Lose the top 15% of your performance tho, because balls-out is carb-burning.

I have a theory that that 15% you'd lose is different from person to person.

Could try making some rice cakes?

https://theartoftraining.net/team-sky-rice-cake-recipe-2/

I keep meaning to get round to trying this as the shop-bought ones my wife got are vile.

@crosshair you don't need to replenish at the same rate you burn. Be that 1000kcal per hour or the 400 so you burn whilst you're asleep. You should be able to sustain a significant amount of calorie burn without the need to top up during that period.

A healthy adult male stores about 2000kcal of glycogen between their muscle and liver you don't want to run that to zero because it's horrible but you should be able to rely heavily on that to keep your consumption during exercise down, then top back up after.

If you're having to mainline glucose during exercise there's a reasonably good chance you're not actually storing enough glycogen in the first place and you'd possibly be better off looking at your normal food intake outside of exercise rather than hammering sugar during exercise.

i'm worried about the impact of eating lots of plums and apricots on a multihour ride. Doesn't that require a significant water intake to digest.
At what point do you need to head for the nearest hedge?

Fine, I'll link it.

https://bikerumor.com/physiology-and-nutrition-why-not-gels/

TL:Dr Gels reduce power output by stealing from the muscles and there's not much of a way around this except eat real food (susprise surprise, gels are actually reasonably rare in the peloton outside the last 30mins of a race)

Hmmm, thats interesting. I wonder how sports drink differs, in that the primary transporter is water aka a thinner solution going in?

When I race 4-12hr I'll have one Beta Fuel and one Torq gel per hour providing me with 110g carbs, I'd really like to know if my perceive impact of washing them down with BF is lower GI distress and a better performance than Gels alone (it should be, according to that article).

This'd be backed up by Dr Alex Harrison posting on the aforementioned Trainer Road thread mentioned - he states for long rides he carries 1 double solution of carbs in one bottle and plain water in the other to mnitigate GI distress.

Edit: on that basis as I'm racing on Saturday with a 2 day carb load I'm wondering whether to experiment with reducing to 80g by using the BF mix alone and disregarding gels

That article seems to focus on people who eat gels without drinking anything.. but who on earth does that? That's not a problem with gels, that's user error.

That said, I don't use them very often cos they are way too expensive and it isn't as easy to get the right amount of water as it is when you dissolve it in your fluids.

That guy also talks about blood being diverted away from the gut, but this is precisely why real food is not ideal when working hard because you cannot digest it as easily as maltodextrin.

In practice, I take some gels on really long rides because I like to mix a bottle with only 50g carbs in it; because it's easier to drink that way if I am hot and sweating. But that's not always enough carbs so the gels top that up. I can adjust the ratio of carbs/water by having a gel or not. It's all done by feel and experience though, I don't calculate anything.

@dangeourbrain it’s not really about the effort you’re doing now. It’s about later on. Whether that be hour 3+ in a longer effort or playing with the kids in the garden later on after a shorter ride or the workout you have planned the following day. As that vid I linked shows- you can’t really out-absorb what you are using anyhow so you’re already behind.

Trainerroad have a phrase ‘don’t diet on the bike’ which sums it up quite well. If you top up as you ride, you can allocate more of the remainder of your daily intake to healthy proteins and fat. There’s not such a need to smash carbs (and spike insulin) the rest of the day then.
Because exercise stimulates the glute 4 transporters, all that excess blood sugar goes straight into the muscles to either replenish what you’ve used so far if intensity is low or to be used straight away.

Obviously you don’t need to do this so critically if your rides never exceed your muscle glycogen stores or you have tons of time between hard rides.
Alexy Vurmulen mentions this in this weeks Fascat podcast where he’s talking about fuelling at 120g an hour during training but does cycle in some more carb restricted rides because he can feel himself craving carbs even on easier rides when he’s been doing a lot of that work.

Likewise Adam Hanson on the Evoq podcast talks about carb cycling. He gave me the idea for long (out to 6hr) fasted rides but capped at 65% of ftp so you never quite deplete enough to bonk. And likewise he recommended fueling your intensity days at ~100g/hr.

Followed my plan and drank 2x750ml bottles with 90g each of sugar +salt+squash tonight. It got me about an extra 10miles with the group I reckon. 1300kcal for the main ride. 1h15 at 301w/326np.
But…. Most importantly I don’t feel trashed now. In fact I feel like I could do another couple of hours V other years when I’ve only drank 500ml total with 50/60g SIS.

Trainerroad have a phrase ‘don’t diet on the bike’ which sums it up quite well. If you top up as you ride, you can allocate more of the remainder of your daily intake to healthy proteins and fat. There’s not such a need to smash carbs (and spike insulin) the rest of the day then.

I think this sums up where we're differing here.
To me...

I’m having a bit of a mind bonk about what to have a go at next in terms of carbs for the cranks. I’m a big bloke at 90kg and 100-120g/hour seems to be the sweetspot once riding the sugar train

that I won’t have speedload whilst chugging the moors

Does not read like the op is looking for things to make the rest of his day a bit more normal. This reads to me like he's looking for fuel for a ride, on the ride, because he's plowing in sugar to keep him self going.

It reads to me like the op is "dieting" off the bike, and struggling to maintain whatever chugging over the moors* is so is just fueling as they go so probably needs to look at prefuel rather than what to put in as they ride.

I appreciate this is completely down to how you read the OP's post mind.

*I'm also clearly not the only one who read that as just a ride rather than a blowing your guts out Z5 effort.

Yes fair points 🙌
I was assuming a multi hour effort at ‘how ever long duration he meant max power’.

From watching riders at the end of a stage I’d say still Coke and rice cakes.

I’m a big bloke at 90kg and 100-120g/hour seems to be the sweetspot once riding the sugar train

It reads to me like....

Also, whilst we are making assumptions which may be wrong, the op needs to remember he doesn't need to fuel his excess weight

Yep OP needs to quantify what a chugg over the moors is and its objective,fitness,fastness,fat loss or fun 🙂

I keep haribos for emergencies or stooopid er mountains/hills.

Gels are grim,fine in a race if your a contender or emergencies but for pootling yuk.

I’d probably have few small decathlon cheapo cereal bars to hand to have a little munch but depends on how many hours and tempo and I’d have had a brekky cereal/cofee before so not a fasted tank.

A long days ride in the sun and I’d be making a break and having an ice cold full fat coke.

Keep water on bike sometimes plain sometimes with the tablet things in as I’m in a hot country.

IMHO i think you can overthink this stuff.

Obviously you don’t need to do this so critically if your rides never exceed your muscle glycogen stores or you have tons of time between hard rides.
Alexy Vurmulen mentions this in this weeks Fascat podcast where he’s talking about fuelling at 120g an hour during training but does cycle in some more carb restricted rides because he can feel himself craving carbs even on easier rides when he’s been doing a lot of that work.

Likewise Adam Hanson on the Evoq podcast talks about carb cycling. He gave me the idea for long (out to 6hr) fasted rides but capped at 65% of ftp so you never quite deplete enough to bonk. And likewise he recommended fueling your intensity days at ~100g/hr.

I tried all this in 2020 and as stated previously, there's a lot of "what works for you" to be considered. I tend to "train low" for weight management. As I tend to train in the evenings >1hr hard workouts can be completed without additional supplementation as I've ingested carbs through the day anyway. I tend to ensure I've eaten a wholemeal bagel -40g carbs- for my 3:30pm snack and workout at 6pm, dinner = recovery. For up to 90 mins hard I add Torq hydro - in lieu of water/a hydro tablet - which is low carb and a stimulus none the less. At the weekend its long rides with fuel being effort dependant. As they are mostly Z2/3 I have a Bagel for breakfast, then aim to go to the end without for up to 3hrs and a ride ride coffee/cake for up to 6hrs. The only exemption to to this is my last two long 4-6hr MTB sessions before a race taper where I use race fuel to ensure I have gained an intolerance before race day.

With reference to the above, I tried that approach and ingested drinks & gels religiously and have to say I agree with crosshair that I felt good during the ride and no cravings afterwards, yet despite being in calorie deficit I gained weight - likely glycogen and water I guess. I know the standard response is "power transcends weight" but that didn't work for me. I'm maintaining 3.8wkg now although FTP isn't a training focus for me due to the long duration racing I'm more suited for.

The entire evening will be around 1800kcals so even 700kcal of sugar is but a drop in the ocean.

you don’t need to replenish at the same rate you burn.

This. I read somewhere recently (can't remember where!) that you need to aim to replace around 20-30% of the energy used whilst actually exercising. The rest comes from what you already had on board beforehand.

Interestingly, BikeRacingWithoutMercy on YouTube did a lab test and even at his zone 2 he was using OVER 100g/h of carbs!!!

That's believable. I burn about 300kcal/hr in zone 2 and I'm skinny/light. That's 75g/hr of carbs if I replace the whole lot whilst exercising. Using the 20-30% replacement I mentioned that's a more realistic 15-22g/hr.

Another little detail of course is fat burn. According to the info I have managed to glean, my fat burn in Zone 2 is about 42%. That means 58% of my calories burned is from carbs. Applying that to my numbers above I use about 44g/hr of carbs and should take on around 11g/hr whilst riding. I can confirm that at that low intensity I can go several hours without a feed.

Of course this is Zone 2 and not crushing the trails.

Dellorto, nope Keihin!

Nah, 40DCOEs.

Pulling this back a little from the scientific discussion, whilst I do fuel highly intense rides with maltodextrin/fructose mixes, for everyday riding I've found fig rolls to be an economical and convenient way to keep my energy up. I eat them when I get hungry.
Bananas are my favourite source but a pain to carry. I went through a phase of buying boxes of cliff bars and naked bars when I was doing a lot of centuries. Really great fuel for me.
Peanut butter and cheese sandwiches seem to work for me too. Especially when I've had enough of sugar.

Had a quick look online. A cliff bar has around 50g carbs in it. Taste great too and virtually indestructible. You can crash hard onto them without ruining the contents. Not so with a banana.
Man I've been in this game too long 😄

Ooh fig rolls, forgot about them. They used to be my staple ride fuel many years ago. Will have to get some!

Bananas are my favourite source but a pain to carry

You just need to relax a bit.

From watching riders at the end of a stage I’d say still Coke and rice cakes.

Just don't ask what's in the "Coke" can

I did a 100 mile club run on Sunday, over fairly hilly terrain, with a decent average speed and all 7 rider

That's going to be a different ride to "chugging over the moors" as a singleton isn't it? What's the energy saving of a peloton (even if it's just 7 riders) is going to what? 20-30%.

Without wanting to sound facetious; the fitter I get, the easier my long rides are, my food intake doesn't seem to need to change much. Cheese and marmite roll, something sweet, enough water, the hardest thing for me is making myself stop, sit down and take the 20mins or so to eat.  I think the rest (for me at least) is just as important.

The other thing I think I'd add is that aside from avoiding vomiting on the bike, unless you're at about 5-6wkg or above, the differences between these strategies can best be described as background noise to a) sleep b) progressive overload c) consistency d) losing a bit of weight, e) keeping your bike clean etc etc.

(That's not to say I'm pushing 6, just that some people will be losing sleep over which tart cherry juice is best when they're getting 6hrs a night)

Peanut butter and cheese sandwiches seem to work for me too. Especially when I’ve had enough of sugar.

Reminds me when I used to make protein pancakes and spread peanut butter on em and roll up and cut into little rolls of yumminess.

There's a nice cooking book for making properly balanced sports snacks - written by a team nutritionist, full of stuff that I helpfully can't remember the name of 🙂

The Feedzone Cookbook? I have that, its very good although I'm guilty of not making use of it TBH.

I think it's the portables edition, I also didn't get around to making the most of it, but there's definately some interesting stuff in it and they do discuss the fuelling requirements so its more than a cook book.

But the Protein pancakes are mine, basically grab a packet of protein pancake mix from one of the protein suppliers and knock up a batch on the evening before, peanut butter roll and cut and put in a little Tupperware and silver foil in the morning.

I think ease of making was the driver and they are pleasant to eat and eatable on the bike.

Without wanting to sound facetious; the fitter I get, the easier my long rides are, my food intake doesn’t seem to need to change much. Cheese and marmite roll, something sweet, enough water, the hardest thing for me is making myself stop, sit down and take the 20mins or so to eat. I think the rest (for me at least) is just as important.

I'd also say the structure of a group roady ride is to ride x.x hrs to a cafe/cakeshop refuel and repeat.

Just don't eat beer and bacon sandwiches 🙂

Just don’t eat beer and bacon sandwiches 🙂

Why not?

I'm not sure they enhance postprandial pedaling but I know a lot of folks who would be 15-20% faster preprandial if the offer was beer and bacon sandwiches.

What’s the energy saving of a peloton (even if it’s just 7 riders) is going to what? 20-30%.

Or you go 20-30% faster, or you use more energy due to it being a bit competitive...

Disagree @continuity

It applies to everyone and more so on longer rides because they take more time and require more glycolytic work the unfitter/fatter you are.

Inigo san-Milan mentioned in a podcast recently that Pro’s can’t physically sit at the high blood lactate that untrained athletes can in testing for the same amount of time because by the time they reach those figures, they’re already doing crazy high power. That’s because us lesser mortals are burning more carbs right from high Z1.

So the less hours you have to train, the smaller your aerobic base is, the more you have to rely on carbs to make good progress and thus the more important a fuelling strategy becomes.

It only takes a bit of experimentation to feel the difference- it transforms the end of long rides and recovery speed.

Coming back to Kryton’s point about excess water weight- I think there is a tipping point the other way into ultra endurance stuff where maybe (at the same body fat) being leaner,lighter, keto/LCHF and very fat adapted with a flat power curve *can* be better but I would say those events would be 12h plus for cyclists just because it’s easy to carry and consume carbs on the bike whereas for running, perhaps that spot could be 5 or 6 hrs?

Hours of wonderful geekery 🤓 (99% goes over my head so I keep revisiting when I’m doing boring jobs at work)

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-peter-attia-drive/id1400828889?i=1000555433779

@crosshair

With all the respect; that's a big-ass straw man.

Helpfully tho, it illustrates exactly the point I was making.

Your counterargument is a pseudotechnical "unfit people burn a higher proportion of carbs so they need lots of carbs". I didn't say "don't eat carbs", but that arguing over the micronutrient density of fructose is missing the point. I get it. We've all listened to the trainerroad podcast ;-). Just eat some carbs that are palatable over the distance you're riding, that you enjoy and focus on the big stuff, like "am i eating, does my bike work, am I massively overweight, did I actually get 8 hours sleep last night" etc.

If you're fighting for 20s to bring your 50M TT under 90mins, or for second place in the national XC series then sure - get a niche fuelling strategy. If you're pushing 3w/kg, I promise that there are so many things left on the table to achieve with less effort that it's helpful to filter out the background noise.

Simply not true in w/kg terms. I’m never going to do much better than 4w/kg (and that’s my Jan 23 goal ‘4.0 by 40’) but as a bigger rider- to just hang with regular club cyclists requires huge amounts of fuel. My ftp is 354ish so burning 1000kcals an hour can dig you a very deep hole very quickly.

I’m averaging 9.5hrs+ of reasonably well structured riding for the year so I need to both work hard and recover fast to keep moving forwards.

Of course all the things you mention are important too but even for low hour/ relatively low fitness riders with otherwise busy lives- long rides can be transformed once you start fuelling properly V bonking after 2 hours and limping round. And it’s not even harder to do! Just whack a load of sugar in your bottle and keep it going in regularly 🤷🏻‍♂️

FWIW I’ve largely stopped listening to Trainerroad the past year or so as Jonathan boils my piss 😠 🤣🤣

I take liquidised rice and tuna in a freezer bag on a 12h TT. Add a dash of Worcestershire sauce for extra bite.

I take liquidised rice and tuna in a freezer bag

Jesus Christ man, you need help!! 🤮🤮

You need a lot of calories and sweet doesn’t cut it eight hours into a race. I also take semolina as well for balance. And when riding I can’t chew, and you don’t stop for eating in a race. Freezer bags mean you can collect them from a helper who holds them out poobag stylee.

If you’re pushing 3w/kg, I promise that there are so many things left on the table to achieve

That got me onto the all time greatest list in a National. Ate a LOT too.