Couple of questions about that zerofrictioncycling website.
1) can anyone explain that last graph? I seems to show that the molten wax goes from first to last after a few hundred km's on a single application? I'm guessing that's showing that the wax eventually wears off whereas a liquid lube in lab conditions doesn't?
2) Interesting that he heats his wax to only 90C, I've always got putoline upto the max my fryer would do (220C, at which point the wax starts to smoke as you're around it's ignition temp) so that it would be as low viscosity as possible. I wonder if I'd be better doing it in a bowl submerged in a water bath instead. Or if his wax is significantly lower viscosity.
It does backup what TJ and others have been saying for years though, motlen wax is in another league compared to traditional lubes.
if he is only heating the wax to 90 its not getting hot enough to do the job properly. Its needs to be much hotter to get it thin enough to penetrate the rollers. Its hardly molten at 90
Putoline also contains a bunch of friction modifiers - its not just wax.
+1 for c3 ceramic ..expensive but get about 1k out of a chain and so far not goosed a chain ring in thousands of miles...if I lube it right(not hard!!) I'll get about 1k but more likely 800 miles(pretty good considering where its stored.. )..but the sludge is the worst...and if its cleaned badly till ruin a chain in no time at all..
Snake oil is the best (most posts above seem to agree) 🙂
if he is only heating the wax to 90 its not getting hot enough to do the job properly. Its needs to be much hotter to get it thin enough to penetrate the rollers. Its hardly molten at 90
Putoline also contains a bunch of friction modifiers – its not just wax.
I get the impression the website and the wax are the same person? Could be lower molecular weight wax to bring the melting point down.
Putoline describes itself as having graphite in the wax but given the stink I'm guessing there's sulphur compounds too. It'd be interesting to know what's in the speedwax, they do a race additive which costs a bit more, wonder if it's something more exotic like tungsten disulphide?
The wax - It is interesting stuff but we have toured on bikes, commuted on bikes, raced xc, dh and enduros, raced motorbikes and race cars with chains and when some of the lubes are so good and easy why go to all the trouble? Our experience is chains are best clean, so clean and light oil and they usually bite the dust or need changing for other reasons, long before wearing out or stretching too much over all.
Most likely reason to change in this house is parts of the chain are too stretched or have broken once or twice.
Though my touring bike is 7 or 8 speed (can’t remember) gets oiled with engine oil and is years old! And for authenticity we waxed the 1951 AJS 500 chain!
I used to so much now riding in the 90's than I do now and I have to confess, I only ever used GT85 to lube them without any ill effects.
Now?
I'm a fully paid up snake oil buyer. For better or worse.
I use what ever oil is on offer at my lbs. I use it little and often, usually after evert ride. Dry the chain, oil it, remove excess. I have a couple of oil tester tubes that are small and go in my bag in case I need to re apply mid ride.
From time to time i remove the chain and completely clean and lube.
Life's too short to spend my nights brewing a witches potion and dipping my chain.
Although, TJ what's your address for my chains? I have 4 bikes 😂
Damascus - PM and I'll happily give you my address and treat 4 chains for you. Take me ten mins and cost almost nothing. Seriously.
From time to time i remove the chain and completely clean and lube.
Life’s too short to spend my nights brewing a witches potion and dipping my chain.
The main benefit of wax is you only have to do the former occasionally. And its one step, theres no cleaning involved. The only thing that needs removing is any water (otherwise it will boil).
And you can do as many bikes as you have at the same time.
To paraphrase your own comment, lifes too short to clean chains!
Squirt.
It's not that good a thread.
Dirty boy!
I seems to show that the molten wax goes from first to last after a few hundred km’s on a single application?
He says why in one of his (very comprehensive) pdfs. While wax is very good at coating the chain, he thinks it has life span issues especially in harsh/wet conditions, as because the wax is solid, it's eventually abraded off (by having gritting water thrown at it) and washed off the chain, so you go from very lubed to no lube at all* in a short time frame. I think even TJ has suggested that a wet peaty ride will see the end of his wax applications.
*He goes onto say that liquid drip lubes also suffer this, but as long as there is 'some' liquid remaining, there will be some lubrication (although this is part lubrication/part liquid sandpaper)
He pretty much rates wax over everything, but concludes that all lubes will wash off given enough of a harsh environment.
Yep, thats my experience, although its worth pointing out that if the conditions have washed the wax off, then everything else would probably be gone too!
Interesting that squirt lasts so much longer when applied in layers (as per the instructions).
I wonder whats in the silca lube that makes it so good (at least in a lab test to the death scenario).
It's a pretty interesting website. Yes, you're right, gritty wet conditions will get rid of any lube in short order is pretty much the takeaway. I think his testing is mostly roadie perspective though. Although he does offer opinions on the best sort of lube for different disciplines CX, Road and XC) and it's mostly for racing; he constantly references watts lost or gained.
I think on reflection the advice: Keep your drivetrain as clean as you can, and choose a lubrication strategy that you'll keep up with, is probably more important than what type of lube you choose from a mountain bike perspective, as a couple of hours in the winter is probably going to strip everything off, and you'll have to re-apply regardless.
Although it's clear that wax is the best overall option. in terms of price and effectiveness, even if it's a pest to apply.
What sort of lifespan are Putoline users getting compared to wet lubes, either in hours/weeks/days or mileage?
Never had a problem with drivetrain life until I started riding an eMTB (which is saving me a lot of time commuting whilst also being great fun). It’s harder to clean and lube because turning the cranks backwards doesn’t turn the chainring and the greater load seems to mean rapid wear when the lube is missing or dirty. I’ve destroyed two chains and cassettes in 1200 miles...
Chief
I get around a thousand miles on the road in winter, more in summer, a couple of hundred miles offroad at least unless the acidic soils strip it out. For example I did a 350 mile 50 / 50 road / offroad tour in decent conditions. Lubed before I went, still plenty left upon return
I think my chainlife is around 4X as long. chainrings longevity is not so greatly improved
as because the wax is solid, it’s eventually abraded off (by having gritting water thrown at it) and washed off the chain,
This is missing the point - the wax comes off the outside of the chain yes - but it remains in the rollers where you need it. sometimes I have had the chains starting to rust on the outside but still full of wax in the rollers which is easily dealt with by a wipe with an oily rag
again I will make the offer - post me a chain and I'll treat it for you
“again I will make the offer – post me a chain and I’ll treat it for you”
Can I send you two?!!
I’m replacing all but the chainring tomorrow because it’s worn to the point it won’t shift properly under load and my plan had been to revert to my previous method of running two chains, keeping one in paraffin and lubing the other with Finishline Wet and swapping them every month or so.
It’s harder to clean and lube because turning the cranks backwards doesn’t turn the chainring
Put a 5mm allen key in one of the chainring bolts.
Problem solved.
This is missing the point
His test, not my words. It looks like he knows what he's talking about. don't worry about it.
cheif no problem - pm me for an address
“Put a 5mm allen key in one of the chainring bolts.
Problem solved.”
This is a good trick!
“cheif no problem – pm me for an address”
Thank you, I will!
putoline in small fat fryer.
Easy and Very effective. Lasts months.
I've used Purple Extreme for years in all weathers. Can get a bit black but never gunky and doesn't wash off easily. Now using Fenwicks professional which is so far so good
I've used most stuff over the years. But a tin of Putoline is arriving tomorrow. Trails are nice and wet and gritty, let's see how it goes 🙂
The key issue for me is how well it allows wet grit to leave the chain. In the grit we get here, the chain ends up with a suspension of grit all over and inside it. If the wax stays on as promised here then the gritty water should bead off and not end up saturating the chain. We'll see.
Don't burn your house down Moley!
Awaits "the red lights come on my fryer" epic molgrips thread.
Can I send you two?!!
Its as quick to do 2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10+ as it is one, just chuck them all in the pot at the same time.
Great if you have n+1 issues!
no PM yet chief
I think I'm going to give the putoline a go this winter. Riding more in the Surrey Hills to avoid the South Downs clag the last couple of years and haven't really found a chain lube that can cope with the sandy soil there.
Out of interest, how long does the tin last?
the last tin I had lasted 10 years or so. I have just started my second tin. its a kilo of wax and each application is a few grammes of wax
Forever. Mines now at least 10 years old and the level hasn't noticeably dropped.
But it has got contaminated and gone a bit more greasy and less waxy. Think a phase of cleaning chains in white spirit (which then ends up in the wax) might be the cause. So ive begrugingly ordered a new tin.
Ill keep the old wax to top it up sometime arround 2050!
the last tin I had lasted 10 years or so.
Blimey, that's bloody good. I'm going to use a camping stove as no leccy in the garage, so I'll no doubt manage to knock it all over the floor on my first attempt 🙂
I've ordered a tin for £23 (inc delv) from dirtbikebitz , (just in case anyone else is looking for some).
Don't use an open flame. I wait for a dry day and run an extension out the window.
Can I just add a note of caution here. Science officer whos opinion I respect did not find the same advantages as I do. I have never really got to the bottom of why he didn't.
I heat my tin on the gas hob with no issues. Just do not leave it unattended
Don’t use an open flame. I wait for a dry day and run an extension out the window.
The plan was to place it in an old roasting tin. I will keep an eye out for a cheapo fryer.
Don’t burn your house down Moley!
That's why I have a fryer, no open flames or hotplates for me!
Assume Putoline flashpoint is the same or higher than that of cooking oil.. hope so anyway!
I will keep an eye out for a cheapo fryer
Our neighbourhood has a Facebook community where people are always giving away unwanted kitchen and household stuff. I put an add up and got a free fryer from a house round the corner within the day.
Argos are doing one for £14.99 so I’ll just grab one of those and be done with it.
I use a small slow cooker rather than a fryer. It is slower and unlike a fryer there's no basket for draining the chains. Instead I took the chains and wire them together so I can lift them all together.
I'd buy a mini fryer in preference but the slow cooker is another option and people are always giving them away.
I doubt you could actually set fire to it, at most you might be able to sustain a small flame on the surface with a bit of help, or a small explosion if you contained the vapours in an enclosed space (i.e. left the lid on).
It's basicly a very smelly candle, without a wick. Candles dont explode or burn without a wick.
If using a fryer, try and get a mini one that holds less than 1l of oil (i.e. a tin of putoline).
A trangia stove works well for melting it. A nice low power to melt it slowly.
I think might get a trangia pan and decant 1/4 tin into that, might speed up melting it. And as insaid over 10 years mine has softened so either less heating of the wax or not contaminanting the whole tin might be a good idea.
You certainly could set fire to it. Most things have a flashpoint. Cooking oil isn't exactly flammable and yet when you leave a chip pan on the fire it starts to smoke, and when the flashpoint is reached that's when all that vapour will ignite.
Guessing that because Putoline is wax it has a heavier molecular weight than chip fat and hence will have a much higher flashpoint, however it might have more volatile additives. Having said that if they've been recommending using an open flame for years it can't be that volatile.
Slightly different question but what does everybody use to clean chains?
I melt candlewax mixture over an open flame, but keep a fire blanket handy. Thing is, you are only heating it up to melting point, which will be 80C or less, far too low to cook chips in. Plus there are no chips causing bubbles and a potentially flammable aerosol. The major risk is of an upset causing spillage of a puddle of wax which catches fire I think. Which is not going to be nice on your workbench, even less on your trousers. So outdoors on a dry day is preferable.
ETA also, of course, molten wax is used for recreational purposes (albeit low melting point types, lower than candles), though I have not tried it myself.
It smokes above ~210C.
But i used a trangia for years and never managed to set fire to the wax.
There's a few webpages confusing flash point and auto ignition, i would have thought the auto ignition temp for parafin would be low, possibly even near ambient (decreases with molecular weight) so the fact it smokes at 210 (arround its flash point) to me is implying that any vapour being produced is combusting but there's insufficient energy to sustain boiling and create a flame. Its a candle without a wick.
Chip pan fires are different, theres an external heat source, and the oil is being stripped with water from the chips which lowers the partial pressure and produces flamable vapours. That would be my thinking anyway.
I honestly can’t understand why it’s not more widely adopted
"The plan was to place it in an old roasting tin. I will keep an eye out for a cheapo fryer."
"That’s why I have a fryer, no open flames or hotplates for me!"
"You certainly could set fire to it."
"I melt candlewax mixture over an open flame, but keep a fire blanket handy"
hmmmmm...I know right, it's a bloody mystery 😉
