[Closed] Belt drive Pinion gearbox bike.

Looks interesting, but i cant see the gearbox lasting a UK winter. I doubt it will be really waterproof. Any small ingress of muddy water will just turn to grinding paste inside - thats going to cost a bit more than a rear casette and mech.

I still think gearbox's are a solution that are still looking for a problem on mountain bikes.

Compare weight and cost and ease of maintanence and I dont see why you would want a gearbox.

Rocks to Rear Mechs would be the problem, with losing the chain an added irritant?

The solution might not be perfect yet, but I hope that they get there soon...

A friend of mine has just picked up one of the gear boxes and its mounting frame to build his own 650b HT/rigid bike.

I like the principle but as above only time will tell to see how well sealed it is.

Theres no reason why the gearbox can't be weather proof though,the sooner manufacturers take on board this system the better, bashing mechs and hangars is always a problem up here in the lakes,and it will be a big step forwards being able to ride through certain trails without the worry of damaging a traditional transmission system.

Longevity can only be proven by time but Rohloff set the gold standard for this. In normal use Rohloff hubs trouble free whatever the conditions. They don't like being completely submerged in water on a regular basis as Simon Barnes of this parish discovered BUT it was still only the bearings that failed in his case and not the gearing itself. Not many of us frequently subject our bikes to that sort of treatment.

Suspect Pinion will be the same - wet conditions won't be a problem. Riding through rivers on a regular basis will mean frequent oil changes.

Again based on experience of Rohloff, maintenance drops to near zero, consumable costs much much less (high end cassette prices are horrific when you consider they're a consumable) and the gearing works consistently in all conditions and over time.

With a Pinion the weight is low, central and suspended. My Pinion AC 26 is coming in at just about the same weight as my Rohloff equipped AC - just over 15kg/33lbs in an XL size. I don't think that's a problem for an all day, all mountain 150mm travel bike.

dupe. (thought the forum didn't let that happen). Heres a pic then -

[img] [/img]

Don't think these systems will ever take off till they get rid of the crappy gripshift and get a trigger shifter on there. Alfine showed that this is possible.

Alfine showed this is possible....at the expense of making the shifting much less reliable. A lot of the problems people have with Alfine 11 are related to cable tension/setup.

Pull/pull cabling isn't dependent on cable tension/smooth running and leaves the indexing in the hub/box. Much better technical solution. Nothing hanging from the bars is neater and you can grab a handful of gears in one go. You might not like it but theres nothing crappy about it.

My Pinion AC

[IMG] [/IMG]

I have about 250 miles on mine now.

Twist grip shift is very easy to use.

I've said it before & I'll say it again.

Effi-gear is the way forward.

They do 7 & 9 speed boxes WITH a trigger shifter

I've not used gripshifts since I was 10 or so. I imagine it would be quite difficult to shift while keeping your finger on the brake lever? Or is it possible to twist it with just your thumb?

I do really like the idea of a gearbox and like many others I'm hoping it will take off sometime soon.

I like this but i get the feeling its quite horrendously expensive right?

I think about the same cost as full price xtr

Its not too bad,it somes with everything needed except a chain and single speed spacer kit.

So works out about the same as X0 or xtr.

I quite fancy an Argon CC 28er with pinion, belt drive and Lefty.

Just me, then?

Andy

Don't think these systems will ever take off till they get rid of the crappy gripshift and get a trigger shifter on there. Alfine showed that this is possible.

There have been prototype Rohloff trigger shifters - I've even dabbled with it. But they all go from a simple system with one moving part to a very complicated system with bits that stick out to break in a crash.

On my Rohloff bike, if I go around a corner and suddenly need to go from gear 9 to gear 2, it's a very quick twist. With triggers, it'd be push-push-push-push...

I imagine it would be quite difficult to shift while keeping your finger on the brake lever?

I can't say that i've ever found that to be a problem. Shifting technique changes because you can shift, in fact it's better to shift, when you're not pedalling. On conventional gears you have to predict which gear you're going to want to be in when you come out of a corner and shift and brake before you reach the start of the section.

On a 'box you either drop a few gears as you finish braking or as you come out of the corner before you start pedalling. If you don't know what's on the other side (unexpected rise?) works much better.

works out about the same as X0 or xtr.

but much cheaper in the long run

I quite fancy an Argon CC 28er with pinion, belt drive and Lefty.

No, me too. Maybe 650, maybe 29 (so 28 it is then....)

I've not used gripshifts since I was 10 or so. I imagine it would be quite difficult to shift while keeping your finger on the brake lever? Or is it possible to twist it with just your thumb?

Your thinking in terms of normal gears, where you have to shift in advance of a hill. With hub gears you can dump all the gears you want without turing a pedal, so off the brake, full hand of gears and pedal up. Tho you can quite easily shift with gripshift while breaking if you still feel the need.

Loving those ACs.

I still think gearbox's are a solution that are still looking for a problem on mountain bikes.

a slimmed-down 7-spd wide-range rohloff would be preferable.

Based on the Pinion/Nicolai Gearboxes/Alfine hubs I think the problem is that, whilst it potentially reduces the cost, it doesn't take much, if anything, off the weight.

I still think gearbox's are a solution that are still looking for a problem on mountain bikes.

On the contrary: The existing rear mech system is inherently floored, because it is vulnerable to knocks and dirt. Therefore, the sooner it is replaced by a gearbox system, the better.

How does the Pinion setup at the top compare to 11sp Alfine in terms of cost, range and weight?

I´d love a Pinion Helius AC but they´re just too expensive.
I don´t think I can justify 4500€ for the frame + shock but I am tempted.
Probably just as well there´s none around where I live to test ride.

it doesn't take much, if anything, off the weight.

What's the durability like if you occasionally bang your BB on trunks etc?

And how does the weight make the bike feel? Rohloff made mine feel quite tail-heavy, and a bit sluggish when changing direction; so would be curious to know about the Pinion.

[i]if it's muddy it doesn't take long for me to start cursing crappy mechs[/i]

Then it's your spannering skills that are questionable. In 15 years of Somme like winters in the Chilterns, I can honestly say that I've had one or maybe two occasions that mechs and cassettes have let me down, and in all that time I've never damaged one either (I know it happens but it's way less common that forums would lead one to believe) I'm with Trimix, I'm all for options and different ways of doing stuff, but these systems are a long way away from taking over from mechs. (simple, home serviceable, long lasting)

It's always a compromise, but for me a gearbox at the bottom bracket is the best place to concentrate the weight, particularly on a full suss, keeping unsprung weight down.

Running costs, ie regular transmission replacement, must be better in the long term & not having a vunerable dangly bit, oooeer!, hanging at rock level is a definite advantage.

What we need is a "standard" mounting system to allow a bit of swapping of frames and boxes, then it will get really interesting.

Not too fussed about that, more the choice of frames / retro-fit and keeping it efficient by not trying to have too wide a range of gears. Have Nicolai ever experimented with the honda-style boxed mech?

Retrofit isn't ever going to be a solution - it's just not practical. Nicolai's idea of a standard BB mount that would allow alternate 'boxes to be used was a good one but hasn't been adopted by either of the other 'box manufacturers I'm aware of which is a shame.

Both Rohloff and Pinion work, I think, by having one set of gears and a reducer (Rohloff 2x7, Pinion 2x9 presumably) so you can halve the number of gears with no significant weight saving. I don't see the attraction of a mech in a box as then you're using more fragile gears - its the full spur gears on Pinion and rohloff that gives the potential for really long life. Why of interest?

And how does the weight make the bike feel?

Balance point on the Pinion AC is bang on central. Unsprung mass less than anything other than a singlespeed (mech and cassette no longer on the back wheel).

Your thinking in terms of normal gears, where you have to shift in advance of a hill. With hub gears you can dump all the gears you want without turing a pedal, so off the brake, full hand of gears and pedal up. Tho you can quite easily shift with gripshift while breaking if you still feel the need.

I've had enough of derailleurs for crap weather use, I'm perfectly capable of keeping it running fine but I'm fed up with the time spent cleaning and fettling. With an Alfine my chain doesn't pickup as much crud to start with and is a lot easier and quicker to clean, and the chain\ring\cog lasts a lot longer. Quite nice having a next to silent bike when you're riding too. It could do with it being lighter (but I could do with being 2 stone lighter) and loosing the drag at very low speeds, i'm still the limiting factor on the bike either way.

I don't think any of the solutions are there just yet but it just needs time and the early adopters to buy it and fund the next step of development. I think the gearbox will get there one day, it just doesn't have enough people putting the time and money into it. The limiting factor is\will be the big players not being interested as it's not a very consumable product if it works properly and getting the big bike brands on board wont be easy. It will probably just be another option as it is now.

I'm curious as to where derailleur setups will go as well to be honest, 1x11 or 12 should be enough for anyone, they'll push electronic, and obviously lower and lower weights. Then what?

Enough rambling...

Then it's your spannering skills that are questionable. In 15 years of Somme like winters in the Chilterns,

Retrofit isn't ever going to be a solution - it's just not practical.

In answer to a couple of points above;

I don't find the weight distribution with a Rohloff a problem at all.
I can start a ride with 1.5kg of water on the seat and down tubes and I honestly don't notice any difference in the bikes handling as it disappears and the CoG moves rearwards over three hours.
Some people say they can, so a BB mounted gearbox is better than a Rohloff in that respect.

I like to swap between Rohloff and SS on one bike. I wouldn't be able to do that with a gearbox.

Twist shift is brilliant. It's all I rode for a few years, until recently buying a tandem with derailleurs. You don't realise how useful it is being able to shift as many gears as you want in one go while stationary until you can't do it any more.

I don't see why waterproofing should be a problem. My Land Rover is rated for 500mm fording depth, which is above the level of the gearbox and axles. I don't change the oil every time I ford it.

It would be good if the mounting was standard between manufacturers. Have Pinion patented it, or could anyone make a gearbox to fit a Pinion frame ?

What's the difference in price between a Nicolai Pinion frame and the equivalent non-Pinion frame ?

MTG, one point in the Pinion's favour that you and I aren't concerned by is unsprung weight - for a susser, score 1 to the gearbox over an IHG.

No, me too. Maybe 650, maybe 29 (so 28 it is then....)

Oh the hazards of posting from a phone 😛

Simon - did you have any luck sourcing a 142x12mm single speed hub in the end?

Andy

AC is 135 not 142mm. In the end I decided to go for a standard dished rear wheel - only singlespeed cassette rears I found seemed to be heavier than the regular wheels. Plus running a regular wheel if you do trash one away from home it's easy to swap out for another.

Weight balance is more noticable on a full sus which tend to be a bit back heavy anyway. Rohloff on a hardtail balances up the fork.

I imagine I'd still prefer to be able to shift without getting off the brakes.

Has no one else spotted the flaw in this statement?

You can't shift a normal mech/cassette whilst braking, unless for some strange reason you're pedaling and braking at the same time, in which case I'd suggest your not braking as hard as you could be (i.e. your weights not too far back to pedal) and could have shifted first and braked later. Or seeing as you don't need to pedal to shift a gearbox, shifted mid corner once the braking was dealt with.

Has no one else spotted the flaw in this statement?

No, not just you, but it's common complaint of those who think grip shift unridable but haven't actually tried it for any length of time.

I wasn't aware that being unable to shift and brake at the same time was a common complaint against twist shifters. I'd never heard it before and and never found it a problem myself.

One thing I will say in defence of those who don't like twist shifters, is that short grips are always too short.
I've got big hands and was always riding with one or two fingers wrapped round the shifter all the time.
I now use a full size lock on grip cut down to about 3/4 length.
Just make sure you use one that only locks at one end.

You can get lock-on grips in the right length for Rohloff anyway...

That's what I meant. They are the "right length" so that the short grip and twister combined adds up to the same length as a conventional grip.
I find them too short, so I prefer a cut down long grip so I can still get my whole hand on the grip part, without touching the twister.

I used ESI Chunky grips on my bike,And cut the shifter one to match the size of the other side.

Likewise - lockons aren't great. Cut down ESI's currently in favour, cut slightly longer than a short lockon.

I'd never heard it before and and never found it a problem myself.

It's one of the many reasons I've been given for people claiming they could never ride a Rohloff. My favourite still remains 'you cant get a floating disc rotor for it'

People also get obsessed about the chain tensioner as well, often thinking that having a tensioner completely negates the reliability benefits of the Rohloff.

It doesn't, of course, it doesn't affect reliability at all.

True but part of the reason to get a gearbox is to get rid of bits dangling of the bike

The chain tensioner is sort of out the way,protected by Crank arm and pedals.

Have had no problems with mine.

Mud clearance is amazing and no chain drop,even riding in the worst conditions mine has been faultless.

You can't shift a normal mech/cassette whilst braking

As I said, I haven't used twistgrips for a long time and I never claimed that anything I said was based on actual experience or that it was a fatal flaw or anything.

I asked out of curiosity, got some replies that I read and after thinking about it I basically decided that it shouldn't be a problem.

True but part of the reason to get a gearbox is to get rid of bits dangling of the bike

True, but the tensioner on the 'hoff is pretty small, tough, and seems to run well enough when surprisingly bent. Theres also a certain satisfaction in a bike part that can be repaired by putting in a vice and hitting with a hammer....

Early days yet but I suspect the Pinion tensioner is even less likely to get clunked as it's normally dragging the back wheel between rocks that does for mechs. It's not really any more delicate than a chainguide.

Don't get me wrong, I'm currently trying to convince a gearbox manufacturer to sell me one as no one is making a frame I'd be happy spending that amount of cash on.

I've been running an 8 speed alfine for a good 2 years now and I cant see me ever going back to "normal" gears

I just don't think frame design is quite matching gearbox design other than a couple such as Zerode

I would love something low, slack, and steel with the Pinion box and a belt-drive. That's the dream, right there.

That's not too far from what I'm aiming for

Like a PP Shan, but not made from gas pipe 😀

Ah no, mine will have a bendy bit in the middle