[Closed] BBC Breakfast: Should helmets for cyclists be made compulsory

I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm going to take part in a potentially hazardous activity then [b]I'm going to make damned sure[/b] that I come out the other side if not completely intact

Damned sure eh? So you always wear a full-face motorcycle helmet, neck brace, spine protector, leathers, knee and elbow pads, high viz vest, fluoro helmet cover, helmet mirrors, ...?

Mind you, having said that the sooner that all the brain-deads have got what little grey matter they aleady possess smeared all over someone's windscreen and the better. At least that way I won't have to share my oxygen supply with them.

That's just lovely.

I too look forward to watching your intestines being forced through your nose by an HGV despite the fact you are wearing a helmet.

Oh no, wait, no I don't, because that's a horrible thing to say!

I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm going to take part in a potentially hazardous activity then I'm going to make damned sure that I come out the other side if not completely intact then at least 95% of the way there - so anything that improves my chances of surviving is a good thing.

Now that you've seen the image on page 1 will you be wearing a helmet in the car? Cycling isn't a dangerous activity, it's just perceived as such.

Frame number? Or just put "bike" in the reg number place.

Right so just free stickers, paid for by drivers, that mean nothing and are not traceable to an owner and possible not even specific to the bike? Like this kind of thing:

[img] [/img]

Yeah I'd have one of those if it was a legal requirement. Can't say I really see the point though.

> Pointless bureaucracy which would cost millions to the tax payer and ultimately discourage people from cycling.

Away and shite.

One of the beauties of cycling is simplicity.
That shouldn't be underestimated.

Meanwhile, in my local paper:

* [url= http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/local/darlington/10636558.Girl__12__remains_critical_after_two_car_smash/ ]12-year-old girl with head injuries after a car crash[/url]
* [url= http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/local/darlington/10637021.Man_claimed_to_have_boxed_for_England_when_stopped_on_suspicion_of_drink_driving/ ]Drunk driver challenges police to a fight[/url]
* [url= http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/10636753.Judge_blames_sat_nav_for_cyclist_s_death/?ref=mr ]Cyclist killed by sat nav[/url]

But, yeah, bloody cyclists and their not wearing helmets.

One of the beauties of cycling is simplicity.
That shouldn't be underestimated.

Indeed.

At the moment my wife's bike is being used by her mum; would we need to register this with anyone? What about when we get the bike back to use it ourselves?

(Incidentally, her mum rides the bike on off-road cycle routes only. My mum also ride her bike, but only on off-road cycle routes.

I wonder what we could do to encourage cycling?)

I'll give it 4.. no, 5 pages.
I see we've had the 'wishing violent death' from a helmet advocate, has anyone done 'Darwinism' yet?

hjghg5 - Member

compulsory helmets on roads with higher speed limits (maybe kicking in above 40?)

If you get hit by a car doing 40, your helmet is unlikely to make any difference.

johnellison - Member

The same was said about motorcycle helmets in the 1960s, but how many motorcyclists do you see not wearing a helmet? Very, very few

It's not really the same, though. Higher speeds obviously, much higher costs of entry (the price of getting on the road on a pushbike is less than the cost of a decent motorbike helmet!), side benefits (enclosed helmets just make more sense to ride in, full visors etc- bee protection!), and the helmets are a [i]lot [/i]more protective.

Informed vibrant debate via the telebox, is there nothing it can't resolve?

You're more likely to suffer head damage during a discussion about compulsory cycle helmeting than you are by riding without a lid. Probably.

Sat in Melbourne today watching people ride bikes with helmets on, all of them from hipsters to girls on dutch bikes to racer types and a TT's racing down brinswick. All of them wearing helmets and way more riding that you would ever see in a british city.

Though as every one above will have said BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH most of the big objectors would wear one if the law said it was illegal just to stick it to the man.

Sat in Melbourne today watching people ride bikes with helmets on, all of them from hipsters to girls on dutch bikes to racer types and a TT's racing down brinswick. All of them wearing helmets and way more riding that you would ever see in a british city.

What happened to overall cycling figures after the law was introduced?

What happened to cycling-related head injury numbers after the law was introduced?

How many can you see compared to, say, a German or Dutch city? How do overall cycling rates compare? How do head injury rates compare?

I'd quite like evidence-based policies, rather than law-making by anecdote.

one thing to think about, Motorbike and car, you need a licence, there are rules already in place. You have to be a certain age, you accept speed limits, etc etc.

Bikes, horses and walkers, no age limits, no licence, basically no framework rules.

So how do you enforce helmet rules on kids?

has anyone done 'Darwinism' yet?

Actually, bring back Morris 1100's and cars of that constructional quality. The fact that the floor might fall out due to rust at any time ought to make drivers think twice about driving kids to school. Or going too fast. And old school skinny tyres would mean driving in snow would be much easier again.

So kids on bikes or walking to school would be much safer.

It's not really the same, though

Agreed. And of course [url= http://road.cc/content/news/68212-dft-casualty-statistics-rank-driving-cycling-walking-and-motorcycling-risk ]the casualty rate on a motorcycle[/url] (despite helmets) is 122 deaths per billion miles, whereas cycling is about a quarter of that (35 per billion miles) and more like walking (42 deaths per billion miles).

so anything that improves my chances of surviving is a good thing.

Aswell as being bloody stupid of course, see driver head injuries, see armouring up the victims when it's shite driving to blame in many cases, see marginalising cycling even more, see complicating a simple effective means of transport.

But then I'm assuming its nice and sunny there mike. 😉

The problems with helmets are:
[list][*]They're designed to protect you in low energy falls, ie. they're not much use being hit by a car at 40mph[/*]
[*]There is some evidence to suggest that drivers drive less cautiously round cyclists who are wearing helmets[/*]
[*]The actual incidence of head injuries from cycling is much, much smaller than that from driving/walking/DIY etc, and no-one is suggesting helmets should be made compulsory for these activities[/*]
[*]As the incidence of head injuries is small, the health benefits of making helmets compulsory are far outweighed by the health implications of the resultant decrease in people cycling[/*]
[/list]
Having said all this, I wear mine every time, but it should remain the right of the individual to decide, not the law.

[i]Agreed. And of course the casualty rate on a motorcycle (despite helmets) is 122 deaths per billion miles, whereas cycling is about a quarter of that (35 per billion miles) and more like walking (42 deaths per billion miles).[/i]

So walking is more dangerous than cycling?

Why is this debate even happening?

It would be better if the cyclist wasn't a smug, brakeless fixieridingasshat

dont think my colleagues will notice that level of detail

Why is this debate even happening?

Because some ill-informed editor at the BBC has decided to stir it up again?

What happened to overall cycling figures after the law was introduced?

What happened to cycling-related head injury numbers after the law was introduced?

How many can you see compared to, say, a German or Dutch city? How do overall cycling rates compare? How do head injury rates compare?

In the end of the day the main part of the body that doesn't heal is the brain, I'll put a helmet on while dicing with cars and other moving objects. Not my choice over here but it doesn't dissuade me from cycling it just means I have a helmet.

Sat in Melbourne today watching people ride bikes with helmets on

And has there been a dramatic drop in cycling deaths from this new law?

No.

Has there been a dramatic drop in cycling numbers?

Yes.

Wow, that sounds great, let's do that.

As Chris Boardman said (on BBC Breakfast) you don't wear a bullet proof vest on the off-chance someone decides to shoot you.

(Is it just me or has the forum just gone a bit mental??)

(Is it just me or has the forum just gone a bit mental??)

I think ratherbeintobago tried to make a bullet point list 🙂

Again how do you compare?

Injury rates and modal share. Not particularly difficult to do.

Hopefully a new page will fix the broken page...

I've "reported post" - hopefully a mod will fix it

smug, brakeless fixieridingasshat

Bit harsh, I feel...

but it should remain the right of the individual to decide, not the law.

Following a Spring/Summer of far too many (off-road) crashes, I'm nursing a variety of minor injuries, most of which would have been prevented by elbow and knee pads. I own elbow and knew pads, but my right to decide to wear them usually results in me not wearing them. I think I need some laws to make me wear them before I have one crash too many 😆

^True story, but tongue firmly in cheek. On a not tongue in cheek note, I have had a few offs where I've been very thankful for a helmet, so compulsory or not I will continue to wear one.

The only problem I have with wearing a helmet every day is....

[img] [/img]

(Not me in the picture...)

Following a Spring/Summer of far too many (off-road) crashes, I'm nursing a variety of minor injuries, most of which would have been prevented by elbow and knee pads.

*and yes my helmet did hit the ground and yes I was glad I had it on.

^Naughty

Talking of which (and OT), whatever happened with the fiasco regarding the hot-linked image of the Winnat's Pass avalanche that caused all sorts of legal bother between STW and the image owner earlier this year?

I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm going to take part in a potentially hazardous activity then I'm going to make damned sure that I come out the other side if not completely intact then at least 95% of the way there - so anything that improves my chances of surviving is a good thing.

So 20mph speed limits on every urban road in the country, enforced by camera. Compulsory driving re-tests, every 10 years. 3 month ban for using a hand held mobile. 3 month ban for speeding. Oh Wait! That's dealing with the danger rather than getting the victims to try and compensate. Can't have that can we. Even though it would make sure cyclists come out the other side if not completely intact.

Or maybe there is a debate about what is effective and proportionate. The evidence from places where there is a helmet law shows that it isn't effective art saving lives.

Brain dead? You might be.

So 20mph speed limits on every urban road in the country, enforced by camera

I hurt my hip in a crash* last night can we have compulsory hip pads too please?

Despite it being tongue-in-cheek, this is kind of my point. If, for example, elbow and knee pads were compulsory, I'd wear them all the time. This would have prevented some of my recent injuries, or at least made them less serious. I'm still happy to take the risk and decide myself and I'm not advocating compulsory all-over body armour or helmets for that matter. Merely an observation that interested me

and drivers staring at the speedo for fear of getting a ticket

andytherocketeer - Member

and drivers staring at the speedo for fear of getting a ticket

i'm not very good at driving, sticking to speed limits is not hard.

Merely an observation that interested me

I for one am glad I always wear a helmet, being sideswiped passing a junction and landing head-first in the middle of the road could have resulted in far more than a broken leg. Funnily enough the father-in-law popped out and bought a helmet soon after the incident.

What gets my goat is kids (see what I did there 😆 ) hanging them off the handlebars- even worse- parents putting lids on their little darlings and not bothering themselves, what message is that sending?!?

Cheers,
Jamie

3 month ban for using a hand held mobile. 3 month ban for speeding.

one rule I have tho if you take your pads in the car to the start of a ride don't leave them there, make sure you put them on or sods law states you will crash.

I think I'll adopt that rule 🙂

even worse- parents putting lids on their little darlings and not bothering themselves, what message is that sending

that people have choices in their lives & the risk assessment of adults pootling along with their kids is that the adults are much less likely to fall off & bump their heads whilst out riding bikes perhaps*

* alternative conclusions are available

What gets my goat is kids (see what I did there ) hanging them off the handlebars- even worse- parents putting lids on their little darlings and not bothering themselves, what message is that sending?!?

The message that children are less steady on two wheels than adults? I made my kids wear nappies when small, but didn't myself. I also don't allow them to drink alcohol.

Or are you worried that they're sending the message that cycling is dangerous, when it really isn't? Because that's probably a valid worry.

[quoteI think ratherbeintobago tried to make a bullet point list

Sorry 😳

So they don't want the little darlings to have a little bump to the head when going for a pottle on the footpath. Would they be happy for them to be knocked over and potentially suffer head injury as teenagers because they looked at mum and dad not wearing a lid so did the same?

Cheers,
Jamie