I'll stay away from the back of your brother's van Northwind, probably a rule to live by in any circumstance.
LiPo fires are not uncommon in the RC car racing world. Most tracks insist that you charge them in a bag and will remove you from site if you don't!
The downside of bags or tins is that if they do catch fire then you don't know about it until the fire is well established.
re charging in a biscuit tin - I checked with my weapons expert next-door neighbour and he confirmed that it would make the explosion worse as you've confined it and then fed it material for shrapnel. Best thing is lots of space to allow the energy of the explosion to dissipate.
So an empty garage or similar, should anyone happen to have one without it being full of crap...
breadcrumb - Member
I always charge mine on an inflammable surface. Think I'll go belt and braces with a biscuit tin too.
That's brave.. a tin full of petrol to add some excitement? 😉
I had one of those cheap cree XML lights, the charger exploded on first use. Small bang followed by smoke. The battery didn't appear to be affected.
OK.
What would people out there recommend as a good way of charging these batteries (irrespective of provenance)?
As I see it (and I don't really understand electricity)!
Charge at a time that is least risk - i.e. not whilst asleep.
Put batteries in something heat/flame proof.
Use an extension cable as this is likely to have a lower threshold fuse.
Is this a good approach whilst not going to the level of using some kind of Saturn V engine compartment?
re charging in a biscuit tin - I checked with my weapons expert next-door neighbour and he confirmed that it would make the explosion worse as you've confined it and then fed it material for shrapnel. Best thing is lots of space to allow the energy of the explosion to dissipate.
Pipe bomb anyone? Yeah the biscuit tin idea is not a good one. Explosions love a confined space.
This thread is a good reminder - just put 2 batteries on to charge.
Charge at a time that is least risk - i.e. not whilst asleep.
most definitely, the last thing you want is a fire in the house while you are sleeping
Put batteries in something heat/flame proof.
no, as above it will just create a much larger explosion
Use an extension cable as this is likely to have a lower threshold fuse.
might help a bit if the charger itself has a meltdown, but a battery could still explode
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Pipe bomb anyone? Yeah the biscuit tin idea is not a good one. Explosions love a confined space.
Depends on the tin?
The reaction is contained within the battery, as an electrical fire the only outputs are gas and heat and a small ammount of solids, and the inputs aren't flamamble. I'm guessing there's not much combustible material being ejected? So all that would happen is the lid of the tin would get blown off.
I'm more concerned about the lack of ventilation and the potential for some flamable vapour to accumulate in the tin under more normal circumstances, which could then explode.
the inputs aren't flamamble
Mmmm... melted plastics burn pretty well though.
[s]Bloody Eurpoean Union beauracracy [/s]
Thank God for CE marking and proper market regulation / testing / certification requirements.
Thank God for CE marking [s]and proper market regulation / testing / certification requirements.[/s] where pretty much anyone can stick a mark on and call it good.
FTFY.
CE mark is good [i]IF[/i] it is legitimate AND independently verified.
Mmmm... melted plastics burn pretty well though.
Yes, but the energy in those compared to the battery itself?
The only videos i've seen of LiPo battey fires the flame's more like a welding torch than anything else as the flame is the gas being vented from inside the cell at very high temperatures. I'd put money on it cutting a hole straight through a biscuit tin.
Yay! for the LiPo bag.
Anyone got a link to Smudge's decent chargers for these cheapo units were all rocking then?
That looked a lot less contained than the ones I'd seen, it didn't seem to vent in the same way. Either way the smouldering remenants at the end are the plastic burning, the bulk of the energy for the fire came from the batteries internals reacting exothermicly.
honestly, what were people expecting when paying £20 for 5 million lumens. Support local companies like exposure and as a bonus your house won't burn down.
So all that would happen is the lid of the tin would get blown off.
Yes I agree, almost added that if it was a typical press on lid. Biscuit tin is probably useless then?
g5604 - MemberSupport local companies like exposure and as a bonus your house won't burn down.
I know a person whose exposure light exploded. By all means assume local stuff is completely safe but if he had, his house might have burned down... Electrical stuff is fundamentally all caged demons waiting for a chance to **** you up
Support local companies like exposure and as a bonus your house won't burn down.
Or support [url= http://www.crgmoto.co.uk/mountain-bike-lights-26-c.asp ]local companies (run by fellow STWers) selling good quality Gloworm lights from New Zealand[/url] that won't burn your house down*
*probably.
re charging in a biscuit tin - I checked with my weapons expert next-door neighbour and he confirmed that it would make the explosion worse as you've confined it and then fed it material for shrapnel. Best thing is lots of space to allow the energy of the explosion to dissipate.
So an empty garage or similar, should anyone happen to have one without it being full of crap...
I'm pretty sure it would have to be under pressure to have the frag grenade type effect you're describing. The biscuit tin wouldn't be well enough sealed and the explosion wouldn't be big enough. I'd say the biscuit tin would at least slow the spread of any possible fire.
A similar thing to the op happened to a friend of mine, her chinese lights nearly burned down her workplace.
I wonder if/when someone is killed as a result of these chinese lights will people maybe start to see them as less of a bargain 🙄
Yes I agree, almost added that if it was a typical press on lid. Biscuit tin is probably useless then?
It'd probably be better than nothing. I admit I've not really given it much thought before, and just ordered some lipo safe bags and will probably charge them in those, in an old ammunition box, I don't think it's sealed well enough to explode, it's just a very sturdy metal box with a tough lid. Could always drill loads of holes in it if I was worried.
The biscuit tin wouldn't explode like a grenade - grenades take a large amount of pressure before exploding at which point the parts which are designed to break into small pieces do lots of damage. How much pressure do you think a biscuit tin will take before the top pops off? What you're trying to do is dissipate the explosion which even the biscuit tin would do up to the point the top pops off. (Obviously this assumes a non-screw top type lid and nothing too difficult to fit...)
Well, ironicaly I just ordered my LiPo safe bags from China, so I await my cheap batteries exploding and the bags being useless.
Still think I'll drill the amo box and fit an extension lead, and have the charger and battery in the box, and do it outside from now on.
I probably wont stop using cheap batteries, just be sensible how I charge them.
Are there any instances of the batteries exploding in use? I imagine a far more dangerous incident would be one going off in a back jersey pocket!
Put batteries in something heat/flame proof.
Sorry - should have been more specific - I did realise about the confinement issue.
What I mean is a heavy, oven-proof pan like a le Creuset metal/enamel pan or lid, effectively a heat-proof surface with a bit of protection at the sides.
I charge mine like this just to be on the safe side
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It would be interesting to know of the batterys had an protection circuit on them? did the packs have a little circuit board soldered onto them?
was the charger the same as used previously?
from what i understand the modes of failure are that the insulation in the battery can be damaged (dropped etc) causing a short or the batterys get an over voltage from the charger. All the pics in the links above show the battery being force over volted. i would have thought that it would have had to be a double failure of both the charger and the circuit on the battery to cause this?
Well, ironicaly I just ordered my LiPo safe bags from China, so I await my cheap batteries exploding and the bags being useless.
Nah, you'll be fine.
Unless....where did you buy the fire extinguisher from?
Unless....where did you buy the fire extinguisher from?
I bought one form Tesco for the car*, the plastic head/nozle/lever bit cracked and fell off!
*the MG after the garrage forgot to put the clip on the fuel line so it sprayed direclty form the fuel pump directly onto the exhaust manifold, the more it leaked, the more power droped, the more I pressed the accelerator, etc etc, I trust the Ford not to blow up on me.
Nothing wrong with buying online from a reputable source e.g. apple store. It's when you buy from some random fleabayer at a price that is too good to be true.
Indeed. But have be cautious even when buying from amazon and the likes.
regarding in a tin - the lid should pop off. But if not then the building up of gases is a problem in that you will at some point open the lid, probably in a rush when you smell burning and at that point you could get a sudden flash which could seriously injure you.
Fireworks in a tin are to be protected from flames outside.
The lipo bags are a good idea, flame proof and elastic.
A Lipo bag in a well ventilated and non-flammable box would be my suggestion. A large metal tin with lots of holes and a slab of spare tile on the bottom to prevent electrics shorting out would be a good bet. Even better if you can put it somewhere outside but out of the rain.
But yes, you do have to ask that if you need to go to those lengths then is it really something you want to be using in your home?
I think poor chargers are the main culprit but cells to fail due to defects or damage or electrical shorts etc as demonstrated so well by Boeing. We used to get nicads blow up in less spectacular fashion when overcharged or at the end of their lives. Messy and would melt stuff (I once melted my RC car transmitter charging AAs) but the lipos are a lot more potent.
Still not as bad as putting 60L of highly flammable fuel in an old 2nd hand car and driving around at 70mph though. If petrol engined cars were invented now i think H&S would kill them straight away.
Reading this thread has just convinced me that i'm better off saving up and buying a second Exposure light to go on my bars, rather than a £15 ebay special.
I'm not sure I have time to put on my blast suit, load the batteries and charger into a blast proof quality street tin, surrounded by sandbags in the middle of the lawn prior to charging them up.
I'm not sure I have time to put on my blast suit, load the batteries and charger into a blast proof quality street tin, surrounded by sandbags in the middle of the lawn prior to charging them up.
That's a bit OTT, and as northwind says, Exposure (or anyone else) aren't immune from battery failures, you could buy cheap lights and get batteries from torchy or smudge if you're worried.
Northwind - Member
I know a person whose exposure light exploded. By all means assume local stuff is completely safe but if he had, his house might have burned down... Electrical stuff is fundamentally all caged demons waiting for a chance to **** you up
Lithium batteries are always a risk no matter how well they've been made and what safety certificates they have.
It's just the better ones have good under and over charge protection in both battery and charger, and the chargers aren't lethal deathtraps or the batteries made from dead recycled laptop batteries. They could still go pop, but they are far less likely to.
Anyway, as I'm a fan of them, another local one to chuck in is [url= http://www.four4th.co.uk ]Four4th[/url]. Local to Aldershot that is, and well regarded by local groups, well built and great support. Thing to say though is if you pop in for a chat Del himself will give you a tutorial about safe battery charging and precautions to take.
This is all stuff that's been long known to the RC guys who've been taking this very seriously.
hmmm might buy on of those bags. Guilty of charging cheapo lights overnight for the last 3 years. Maybe that's why I never win the lottery
freeagent - MemberReading this thread has just convinced me that i'm better off saving up and buying a second Exposure light to go on my bars, rather than a £15 ebay special.
I wouldn't use the battery or charger from most £15 lights. But that doesn't mean you have to spend a lot, the higher end Magicshines come with quality batteries and chargers, as do many fluxients and some other inexpensive lights. Or buy a higher quality battery and charger for a cheap light- not what I'd do, but it's an option. Just means it's a good idea to get away from the barrel scrapings
Anyone got a link to Smudge's decent chargers
Google 'mtbbatteries'
Are there any instances of the batteries exploding in use? I imagine a far more dangerous incident would be one going off in a back jersey pocket!
I was wondering this - I have been known to attach the battery for my helmet light to the back of my helmet 😯
Crikey, I've got one of these sitting around from last year.
Im scared to plug it in now.
If it's dodgy and there's a short circuit then it could go pop during a ride. Advice usually is they should be kept in a Li-Po bag or similar when storing also.
Thermal runaway is the main risk, but if there is protection in there and quality controlled to ensure a short circuit is not likely then should be okay. Still, see the many cases of recalled laptop, phone, etc batteries, and some catching fire on planes even though they're not charging.
There's a difference between Lithium-Ion and Lithium-Polymer, though not sure what difference there is when it comes to charging and safety.
Generally, a good quality battery will be fine riding and storing. Just keep an eye on it while charging.
I have 2 Exposures and don't charge at night. Given that the MaxxD takes around 6hrs plus to charge it does indeed get left attended, while at work. Can't see other option really.
There's a difference between Lithium-Ion and Lithium-Polymer, though not sure what difference there is when it comes to charging and safety.
I think it's the LiFePO (Lithium Iron Phosphate) you're thinking of, lithium poymer batteries never (as yet) made it to comercialisation (the idea is to replace the electrolyte with a polymer thus making a flexible battery that couldn't short out), if you buy lithium polymer batteries it just means a lithium ion battery in a plastic case/pouch, rather than in a metal shell (phone battery Vs 18650).
LiFePO batteris are inherently safer, but slightly lower volages and lower max discharge currents.
Just a point of balance. I've had all sorts of dodgy lights and batteries from various sellers and I have not died to death yet. I charge them in the garage, on the workbench and have a smoke alarm. they are often left charging overnight, occasionally for days at a time. I'm not saying it will not happen, but so far no problems.
I'm now using mtbbatteries so not such a worry.
From previous experiences of neighbours and freinds,
Tumble drier caught fire, dragged outside,
fridge freezer caught fire, burnt out garage.
Chip pan caught fire, melted side of freezer and deposited microwave off top of freezer onto chippan that then showered the kitchen in hot burning fat, flat and contents destroyed,
TV left on standby, caught fire, wet blanket thrown ovweer top when power switched off and tv taken outside,
Microwave caught fire, due to person drying knicker in it,hospital staff comunal kitchen,
Only the last one had working smoke alarms, all caused damage and smoke, now imagine if it was night time and you where sleeping.
