I was rolling down a fireroad at the weekend when I realised that standing up more or less straight I couldn't really reach my bars. That reminded me of riding moto where we would spend a lot of time riding fast standing and so fit risers to get the bar just right that you're in the most comfortable standing position.
I'm not sure if that issue translates to mtb.
I have a few spacers under the bar and a slight rise on the bar itself, but really have just thought "That looks about right"
How do you determine the right bar height?
I'm searching for the limits. I'll let you know when I find it.
Also currently experimenting. 100mm rise Ergotec bars paired with a 30mm stem. I rolled the bars back a fair bit so now the grips sit behind the steerer tube. In addition, I've also started playing about with crank length. I'm currently running 140mm kids cranks.
The cranks make a slight difference to the standing position (and also makes it easier to switch stance) but the main difference is the seated pedaling position. Since the cranks are shorter the saddle is higher so it doesn't feel quite so much like riding a chopper.
Also, no pedal strikes since fitting the cranks.
Overall I'm happy with the way it feels. I was always worried I was going to lose front wheel grip if the bars weren't as low as possible but if anything the opposite is true. I'm not quite sure what the physics behind this is, tbh.
Started doing this after watching some of Reece Wilson's videos:
By the way, I remember someone writing a blog about riding in the 'Athletic Position' where, instead of actively trying to load the front wheel, you were centered over the BB in a neutral position. The idea was you could move your weight around more easily than if you were always committing to the front.
They went on a framebuilding course to build the bike they were thinking of.
I tried searching for the blog but it seems to have disappeared.
I have just fitted the highest bars that I have ever had on a bike, 70mm rise. However this is not in the search for the most efficient riding position but to relieve the strain on my aging neck. It works really well giving the most comfortable position . I’m sure it’s not very aerodynamic but well worth it not to have to put a heat pad across my shoulders and neck after every ride!
How do you determine the right bar height?
No right or wrong, but probably higher than you first think - I've gradually gone higher and higher after years of the rule being that slamming the bars was the right thing to do. Probably goes hand in hand with the LLS trend: steeper STAs move more weight onto your hands, alleviated by raising the bars. No idea if that's how it actually works, I could be talking BS!
I'm now on XL/XXL bikes with much longer head tubes, a minimum of 15-20mm spacers under stems, and minimum of 35mm rise bars. No idea on actual bar heights but definitely higher than average.
I remember Cy from Cotic writing about modern geometry needing a higher front end a few years ago.
I'm 185cm and have been running medium high rise bars (38mm) for a few years now on XL frames and was wanting to try higher on my old bike, ended up changing bike instead for something with 20mm more travel and the stack is 22mm taller, with the same 20mm of spacers and bar/stem combo it feels much better. I quite like the idea of trying a setup like Sharkattack to see where the limit is.
Have a look at Cleland Bikes and ask whether or not Geoff Apps knew something the rest of the industry overlooked.
I know, I know...
Geoff Apps says it and I'm like, 'I really should look into that.'
Reece Wilson says it and I'm like, 'Where's my credit card!?'
I like to believe I'm a free-thinker when it comes to bikes but really I'm just waiting for the cool kids to do it first so no one thinks I'm weird 🙂
But yeah, with short cranks and high handlebars I'm sort of re-creating some of Geoff's high handlebar high bottom bracket thinking and I'm liking the results so far.
I played around with this last year. I bought a 50mm rise bar as an experiment. Found that was too high for me and felt like I struggled for weight on the front on flat corners. Ended up dropping 10mm of spacers under the stem to lower it down, which created a good riding position. Certainly felt a little more confident on properly steep tracks.
However, when riding with my preferred bar sweep being aligned with the fork steerer, the higher rise reduces reach. I put a 50mm stem on from my parts box but didnt like what they did to the steering feeling compared to a 40mm stem. So i've actually gone back my original setup for a while to see how that feels.
But I suggest buying high rise bars, finding what is too high for your, then dialling it back a little from there.
I've pretty much got a different set up on all my MTB's, but then they all have different reach and stacks
Levo - 42mm stem, 50mm bars, 20mm spacers
Big Al - 35mm stem, 30/35mm(?) bars, 20mm spacers
Switch9er - 42mm stem, 38mm bars, no spacers
Kenevo - 50mm stem, 17mm spacers and just gone from 30mm to 50mm bars - feels better. This bike has old school geo and the bars felt too close to me with a short stem.
Measured the height to the end of my bars and seems to roughly range from 107cm on the Ragley to 112cm on the Levo, but the Ragley has the lowest BB. Not sure what my effective stacks are across the bikes.
got titanium 85mm risers on a couple of bikes are fab, they also have a lovely back sweep and work a treat
No idea what the actual height is but I'm running 80mm Deity Highlines on my Starling and they're great. i was on an old high rise Mr Dirt stem and 38mm (or so) bars previously but the higher bars saved a chunk of weight (it is a hilariously heavy stem) and reclaimed a bit of reach.
I'm riding much better than I ever did and have found that there's virtually no downsides other than looking like a bit of a follower. Much more fun as soon as things get steep.
I keep looking at this stem... https://www.intend-blackline.com/products/grace-dd/
@sharkattack what's that stem mate
https://creaturecycles.co.uk/product/creature-de-reacher-super-short-mtb-stem/
The downside of experimenting is the price! Still, I've got the perfect bike for it and I already have a few different bars to play with.
I like the look of the Itend stem but it's a 2 bolt clamp so you can't put high rise bars in it. I knew about the Rulezman stem previously but it's 15mm reach and if I'm going super short I want all the shortness!
This one is 60mm high with 10mm reach.
£230 🤐
I like the look of the Itend stem but it's a 2 bolt clamp so you can't put high rise bars in it.
Good point!
£230 🤐
I just put it on the credit card and pretend it never happened. The expense just blurs into all the others.
I can’t abide less than 12 degree sweep so will need to find something that rises a bit more but sweeps too, which seems to narrow down the options.
80 mm rise on two bikes and 50 mm with a higher stack on my eeb. Many thousands of miles like this and feels brilliant; I load the bike centrally, lots of front end grip, jumping feels chilled, mega steep also chill, my destroyed left wrist loves it too so win win for me. The only downside is if I jump on a “normal” set up, it feels absolutely horrible. 🙂
Clearly going up hills at the limit of not looping out on the eeb takes a tad more concentration, not an issue on the human only powered bike as I can’t really get up stuff that steep for long anyway 🤣
Ergotec are all 12° backsweep, I've got the 50mm and 70mm rise bars but tempted to try 100mm
I’ve looked at Ergotrx before but can never find them in Australia
My ageing neck means a lot of spacers to be comfortable. Could probably manage with less and higher rise bars, which seem to be more readily available these days. I’ve been guilty of building with a lot of spacers with the view to cut down later once I’ve figured it out and then not altered it….. Oops 😬
looks like 75mm of spacers on the hardtail….
No idea how this translates to the OP post of standing fully upright, I’ll try it next time I’m out.
£230 🤐
Here is a cheaper option, but some are put off by the narrow clamp area on the steerer tube:
https://www.aerozinebike.com/product/stem-control/xnc-10-stem-bundle/
I understand the concern, but my physics head says it should be fine.
It is sort of interesting watching these stems get reinvented again. Maybe this time we'll not just go "OK this works but is hideous therefore no"?
As far as how to arrive at my settings, I fanny around with it. I've got a reasonable idea of my start points now but there's no substitute for getting out there and trying stuff. I don't even have a set bar height across my bikes.
I know that very high, very short stems were around in the 90's but they were way too soon for the bikes of the time which were absolutely tiny.
It makes sense for me on a bike with 500mm reach, 63 head angle and above average chainstay length.
The riding position and handling is so good that if I was buying a new frame I'd be factoring in this stem and sizing to suit.
I can tell by some of the comments I've had already that people still prioritise looking normal over trying anything new. In 2017 people used to ridicule my Geometron telling me it wouldn't go up hills or around corners and wouldn't do this and that. Now every brand has a bike in that ballpark.