[Closed] Bad skills course session review

Perhaps not just an hour but a series of half-days might be more worthwhile, would allow people to justify travelling further. Focus on one or two key areas in first session; you go away and practice those as much as possible; next session does a quick recap possibly correcting any errors in your technique then introduces a new skill. Repeat for rest of series.

I went on a public one designed for 8 but only 3 turned up & the Instructor acted like it was a chore for him to be there.

Massive variation in the skill level between us but if you're going to run a course on a notorious hill then you should expect a certain skill level is already established and not spend 2.5 hours getting people to do bunny hops and wheelies in a quarry first.

Instructor raced off to the Café leaving the new guy who didn't know the area pushing his boundaries trying to keep up or he'd be lost with no idea where he was or where he was heading.

Riding up to the hill I explained I could clear the obstacles but wanted to do it more confidently instead of being on the edge and I'm terrible at corners. All I got back was "pump & flow" which made me faster and bloody petrified at one point and maybe 5 goes on a corner because it was getting late.

If 8 had have turned up I doubt I'd have even had a look in. Overall I was disappointed and brought back very little. When I went I was roughly the middle of the pack with my riding mates, I'm still roughly the middle of my riding mates but 80 quid worse off.

A different coaching company near me were suggesting 10 after work sessions of 2 hours but for the price they were charging I can take the whole family to Spain for a week all inclusive... I wonder which one I'm more likely to get more from?

Lawmanmx - Member

not surprised, GW is a Fast skilful rider, a Lot of instructors are 'trained' where he is Experienced, prolly where the wires got crossed

aaaaahahahahahahahhahahahahahah! He'll like that! In fact, he's probably already seen it using his 54th STW username

I am a litte disapointed by a lot of the views being expressed above.

1. No one is naming the coaches (esepcially the bad reviews). Why not? How does that help other people decide which coach to use or help the coach realise that they need to up their game?

2. The courses apper to be very descriptive (you will do this or shut up) coaching should be more about helping some one develop.

These courses are not cheap, and the coaches are supposed to be exactly that, gving instructions on the best way to do some thing is not coaching, a coach should help deliver the best out of some one.

Ive done my fair share of ski instructing / coaching over the years and wouldnt want to work with some of the 'coaches' that have been talked about above.

I've got a session hopefully in the next 6 months with a well known coach. I am now intrigued to see how good they actually are 😀

Sounds like some of you have had a bad time of it. I have had two sessions with Tony "Jedi" doyle of UK bike skills, and they were both excellent and have given me a much improved riding experience.
Tony appears to be dedicated to making you enjoy your riding more, getting more out of it, an being a better rider. He does this by getting into your head and under your skin as a rider, its a Jedi thing.
This translates into faster coners, bigger jumps, better control and less crashing. There was no pointless bullshit, no arrogance or patronising shit. He provides excellent differentiation between the group members, and is able to teach all levels at his purpose built facility. So before any of you write off the idea of skills training because some people have been diddled by "instructors" who don't give a shit about their customers outcomes, go to  http://www.ukbikeskills.co.uk/ and book a session with the Jedi. Book early because he is in demand, he is called Jedi for a good reason.      

In contrast to toys19's post I had a pretty disappointing session at uk bike skills. Maybe I expected too much or caught him on an off day. For what it cost it didn't really work for me. I think maybe it highlights the need to find the right course for you and there isn't a one-course-suits-all

Bottom line is: if you have had coaching at any other sport you will know that they are not actually going to teach you anything in one session. What they ought to give you is something to think about and to take away with you to practice and learn the muscle memory needed to take you the next level.
I went on one with a mate. I went expecting very little, as of course I ride like a god already, and was pleasantly surprised when given a couple of pointers that really worked and cribbed the coached technique for teaching bunny hops, manuals and such that I already could do without actually understanding the constituent parts. Now use those for teaching the offspring very successfully.
For me it was money well spent. Made me think of the "how and why" rather than just doing it as i had since the 80's on a BMX.
I would say that I went on the course not long after getting back on the bike after a fifteen year hiatus and could see the benefits of doing another now I have been riding regularly since then.

nickjb did you discuss this with Jedi? I know lots of peeps who have sern him and he makes a point of not leavibg anyone dissapointed. You should talk to him, I am sure he would prefer to rectify your dissapointment.

No one is naming the coaches

OK, for what it's worth, I went with Great Rock to Delamere forest. Nigel Page did most of the instruction with Ed assisting, but it was very much a case of:

1. talk about what you're supposed to do
2. Have Ed/Nige demo
3. Have a go yourself
4. Receive feedback on what could be done better/worse

I just felt that the group was too big for me to get a lot out of it, although watching Nige and Ed's young lad launch a huge gap jump was impressive. This was a few years ago.

I think my expectations might have been too high

I enjoyed the session with Jedi. I'd love to go back but it's too far to travel reasonably and there's little else to do in the area. I did one in NW and that was OK, wouldn't go back.
I cannot understand why we don't have a decent skills instructor in Brizzle. Let's start a petition to get Box to do it.

In contrast to toys19's post I had a pretty disappointing session at uk bike skills.

I think i know why. I understand Jedi is a top guy and coach but those who rave and rant about his greatness (if this is you, you might want to stop reading now) were pretty damn useless at riding a bicycle. The fact that he showed them something that most people can work out for themselves within 30 minutes of throwing their leg over a bike isn't a reflection of how good he is - it's shows how bad they are at controlling their own body. Lets face it, riding a bike is fairly simple - it's just a bit of physical input and not trying to rewrite the laws of physics. The folk who can't get this on their own would benefit from some coaching if they don't have the time to teach themselves. As said, 1-1 or 1-2 would be the way to go about this.

Same for the mental aspect, if you can't work out how to convince your yourself you can do something then maybe you need a head coach too.

First person who mentions golf/skiing lessons wins a special prize!

stilltortoise - Member

No one is naming the coaches

OK, for what it's worth, I went with Great Rock to Delamere forest. Nigel Page did most of the instruction with Ed assisting, but it was very much a case of:

1. talk about what you're supposed to do
2. Have Ed/Nige demo
3. Have a go yourself
4. Receive feedback on what could be done better/worse

I just felt that the group was too big for me to get a lot out of it, although watching Nige and Ed's young lad launch a huge gap jump was impressive. This was a few years ago.

I think my expectations might have been too high

I think that might be the case. There is no magic wand a coach can wave. Theypoint out what you ought to do, demonstrate it and critique your attempts. They may also add various forms of encouragement or shaming depeding on the context.

WRT: "Cycling in circles in a field" as a disappointment, you would be amazed at the number of fairly experienced mountain bikers i have met/ridden with etc, who have no idea how to do the basics properly.

Now, "cycling in circles in a field" is really rather dull if you've gone on your coaching course after watching endless you-tube videos of people doing the RedBull rampage and back flipping 100yard gaps or whatever, but remember, the people good enough to do that sort of riding you aspire too can already "cycle in circles in a field" so make sure you can too...... 😉

With all these things, you get out what you put in.

You have to be a very arrogant ***wit to think you have nothing to learn.

those who rave and rant about his greatness (if this is you, you might want to stop reading now) were pretty damn useless at riding a bicycle.

I've often wondered if that's the case 😆

If Jedi was nearer to me I'd put my money where my mouth is and try for myself. Since he's a good 6 hour round trip away from me, I want to be absolutely sure it's going to be worthwhile. I don't think there is any way I can be that sure.

Money back guarantee? 😉

what about Pedal Progression in Ashton Court/Bristol. Haven't had a skills day with them, but they are really good riders and really approachable and I imagine would make good instructors. I'll hopefully book a day with them this winter.

Jedi was very good. It is pretty expensive p/hr and was pretty simple tuition for me but he really improved my riding a lot, so I was happy.

maxtorque - Member

WRT: "Cycling in circles in a field" as a disappointment, you would be amazed at the number of fairly experienced mountain bikers i have met/ridden with etc, who have no idea how to do the basics properly.

Now, "cycling in circles in a field" is really rather dull if you've gone on your coaching course after watching endless you-tube videos of people doing the RedBull rampage and back flipping 100yard gaps or whatever, but remember, the people good enough to do that sort of riding you aspire too can already "cycle in circles in a field" so make sure you can too......

With all these things, you get out what you put in.

I enjoyed that part of my day lots, it was raining and wet and you could 'feel' the traction after a while, feel it, judge it, know when you were near the edge and almost work out where the finite limit was.

what about Pedal Progression [b]in Ashton Court/Bristol.[/b]

I know someone who didn't enjoy or benefit from theirs! He won't be posting it on here though, I wouldn't have thought.

what about Pedal Progression in Ashton Court/Bristol.

How on earth are they going to teach a drops/jumps course?

Tempted to give PP a go, but have had such good experiences with Jedi.

mine , MBi, poor ill thought out, no structure, poor value wouldn't go back (was years ago tho)

Forest Freeride, good, didn't 100% "gel" but would consider again, great value

miscellaneous BC L2's, needed better planning but reinforced the basic's, stil practice some of the skills bits, essentially free

is their value in it? well yes, the problem is finding the right people in the right places

those who rave and rant about his greatness (if this is you, you might want to stop reading now) were pretty damn useless at riding a bicycle.
I've often wondered if that's the case

You couldn't be more wrong.

I did a 8 hour round trip to see him with my brother Peterpoddy. I'm pretty good downhill, generally always fastest going down, and love my technical uphills too. However I wasn't confident in my cornering and couldn't jump very well on an MTB. I'd even riding 20 years plus.

I got a great 4 hour lesson which built up from the basics to check where we were up to linking lots of smaller bits together to make a full run down the hill on his special course. He also taught me how to jump doubles pretty successfully.

As far as the cornering went he said it had one of the most natural body positions he had seen but quickly realised I wasn't judging my speed properly and leaving it too late to make corrections. I also wasn't looking far enough ahead of myself.

He offered back up later and was interested in how my riding developed afterwards.

Obviously the day was more complex than I can explain on here but that's the gist.

I think there are a lot of people doing skills courses who haven't got a clue. I met one at Stainburn and I ended up giving at couple of the riders some hints and tips on how to ride a technical section as I had watched them being instructed (I had stopped for lunch) and they weren't getting any proper instruction and worse - no feedback. Basically the instruction they had for a steep chute with rocks and roots was to keep your weight back and that's it. There didn't seem to be any encouraging words or analysis or demonstrations at all. If I could remember who it was who was teaching them I'd name and shame them straight away.

There was a similar situation in one of the Welsh trail centres which also looked as disappointing.

I am not saying I am a riding god (wouldn't have gone on a course otherwise!!) but I can tell decent tuition apart from bad tuition.

You have to be a very arrogant ***wit to think you have nothing to learn.

You would. Luckily no one said that. I [b]did[/b] say if you've been on a course you should stop reading my post. That was partly down to not wanting to hurt anyone's feelings and partly to prevent said people from getting all uppity. If the above wasn't aimed at me them you can ignore this post also.

edit: Robdob. You couldn't go round corners and couldn't jump? How was i wrong? 😀

Been on one.

All Mountain Course at Innerleithen with Andy from Dirtschool.

It didn't turn me into a riding god but he spotted straight away some fundemental mistakes I was making and gave me tips to correct them.

I ditched SPD's for flats and basically started to relearn how to ride a bike off road. I learned to to move around on the bike better and weight up both tyres properly instead of hanging of the back of the bike like a loon and wondering why I had trouble steering!

Yes it seem totally obvious but if no one points it at to you you might never learn

You would. Luckily no one said that. I did say if you've been on a course you should stop reading my post. That was partly down to not wanting to hurt anyone's feelings and partly to prevent said people from getting all uppity. If the above wasn't aimed at me them you can ignore this post also.

They are in Ashton Court and there is LOTS of riding around (not necessarily in it) to do jumps n stuff.

I've been coached by Jedi, loved it so much that the number of people who've gone down to see him off the back of that is in double figures and even if I say so myself, they considered me a tidy rider before that.

However, I went to hadleigh farm Olympic course with a couple of mates and we all thought that the bc coach called John was dreadful. His pre ride briefing seemed designed to rob confidence and became a self fulfilling prophesy.

He didn't coach at all but what was really frightening is that people were thanking him for the coaching because they knew no better. One guy wanted to try a jump, John told him to pull up hard because he had a long stem. First thing to land was his camelbak.

digga - Member
I'm a great believer in the method of finding a mate who's better/faster than you and attempting to follow them. By all means ask a bit of advice, but mainly just try to read them. I do find there are some people who are easy to follow and others who aren't.

I think i know why. I understand Jedi is a top guy and coach but those who rave and rant about his greatness (if this is you, you might want to stop reading now) were pretty damn useless at riding a bicycle. The fact that he showed them something that most people can work out for themselves within 30 minutes of throwing their leg over a bike isn't a reflection of how good he is - it's shows how bad they are at controlling their own body. Lets face it, riding a bike is fairly simple - it's just a bit of physical input and not trying to rewrite the laws of physics. The folk who can't get this on their own would benefit from some coaching if they don't have the time to teach themselves. As said, 1-1 or 1-2 would be the way to go about this.

Same for the mental aspect, if you can't work out how to convince your yourself you can do something then maybe you need a head coach too.

First person who mentions golf/skiing lessons wins a special prize!

I think the people that rant and rave are the people that get the most out of it for whatever reason ie they suddenly find themselves jumping when they couldn't before. If you have a repertoire of skills already, polishing those a little won't make you rant and rave.

I went on a course with Jedi, and only really came away having got a couple of things out of it. It didn't transform my riding, but it did make me think more about it. In fairness to Jedi, he makes no promises about transforming your riding.

Where a lot of people benefit is that Jedi gives you the confidence to do the jumps and drops at his premises, and those that couldn't jump suddenly find themselves sailing over small gap jumps. This is great, but it's done at a controlled speed, in a controlled environment. It's a bit different on the trails, and I suspect many people that visit Jedi and do his array of smaller jumps struggle to covert that to natural stuff on a tricky trail.

He does show how simple it is, and that helps, but if you set your expectations too high you could be disappointed.

@ Euro

I'm interested in investigating the implications of you logic there, linking ability with the need for coaching:

Are you saying any of the following?

> Jedi is not capable of coaching folk with a 'higher skill set' (you define what that is, as it's your assertion)
> You only need a coach if you're crap
> Professional sports folk don't need coaches

Learning anything that involves a skill takes time. Some people will find it easier and some harder. Some will develop to a point far beyond that of others whose rate of improvement will drop off to a point of being negligible.

When you learn something from scratch, you progress quickly as you go from 0 to something, when a certain level of proficiency is alerady there, the learning curve is far flatter.

Anyone who posts on here saying that their riding has improved 100% and that they can't believe the difference a skills course has made is either a complete beginner (nothing wrong with that) or self delusional given they've just parted with a sizable chunk of change.

People who are reasonably proficient should have realistic expectations of how much they are going to learn on such a course.

I should add to my bit above that overall I thought the course was worth the money. It's nice to have a play on dedicated facilities too, and session things to nail them. He's a top bloke too, good to chat to. 🙂

Robdob, your always fastest going down but couldn't jump or corner despite being one of the most natural riders ever seen on a bike !

People will blow smoke up your arse if you pay them enough money,
Where were you riding that was straight down with no corners or jumps and were your fellow riders shit ?

I'm just asking, as I'm half tempted to throw some money at some one to coach me properly, I'm not sure what bad habits I've picked up whilst riding my bike, except scratching my bollox whilst riding and leering at women horse riders in jodhpurs.
No doubt my body positions shit and I shouldn't be wearing SPD's but I don't think that's gonna change much now,

I'm just asking, as I'm half tempted to throw some money at some one to coach me properly,

I suspect you would be wasting your money.

I've done two group sessions now and wouldn't do another one - I'd stump up another for a one to one session. It's expensive but at least you can ensure that it is tailored to your needs.

I've had a session with both Jedi and Great Rock. I enjoyed them both - neither transformed my riding but I did take things away from them both.

I thought they were both really good coaches but a lot depends on your attitude when you attend - I was really excited about the first one with Ed and took a lot away. I was a bit grumpy when I saw Jedi and I think that tainted my experience a bit (rubbish trip down etc). The group dynamic on the course with Ed was better than the one with Jedi where everyone kept themselves to themselves.

The course with Ed are pretty relaxed - it felt more like a day out riding with mates (although it was structured) whereas Jedi's course felt like a course. As good as Jedi's facilities are, for me they bear very little resemblance to what I actually ride and I've found it harder to put some of his stuff into practice on local trails. Whereas the course with Great Rock was on trails that I'd actively seek out to ride so stuff made a lot of sense.

The issue with group sessions is that there always seems to be one or two people who seem more advanced than others or get things quicker and others who struggle. Those who need more help naturally get it at the expense of others.

Where a lot of people benefit is that Jedi gives you the confidence to do the jumps and drops at his premises, and those that couldn't jump suddenly find themselves sailing over small gap jumps. This is great, but it's done at a controlled speed, in a controlled environment. It's a bit different on the trails, and I suspect many people that visit Jedi and do his array of smaller jumps struggle to covert that to natural stuff on a tricky trail.

This was me. I could do his 3 foot drops and get reasonable air on his tabletops with no problems, but still don't have much confidence on the same ones on my real trails.

I've been on a couple of group courses and hope my 2p's worth is useful to others considering tuition;

In the past I've done a few sports/hobbies and received tuition. I learnt to fly and held a pilots license, I learnt to drive a racing car and hold a race license, blah, blah. I guess these experiences are my reference point.

My observations (in no particular order)

- It's often difficult to know what exactly the level of tuition is aimed at, prior to attending the course. What exactly is 'intermediate'? A previous post said >>the intermediate course and was pretty clear up front that it'd be done on reds and blacks and require a decent level of skill<< well...if I could ride round reds and black routes with a decent level of skill, I would not consider that being intermediate. I guess I'd probably consider myself a pretty good MTBer, perhaps even advanced (I'm not BTW).

- I found that some of the obstacles we rode were just wayyyy too challenging and that we dove in at the deep end too much, to early. Perhaps this is back to my previous point about 'what is intermediate' and knowing what course to be on. Regardless, if the course includes leaning drop offs for example, I can't see the point in trying to get someone to ride off a 5 foot drop, when you haven't yet shown them how to do a 2 foot drop properly and made sure they can do it reliably and understand the basics. IMHO effective training is about doing things in a graduated way, start small and build up. I guess what I'm saying is even if a course is intermediate, if it includes a new skill, the starting point for that skill tuition should be as a beginner to that particular skill.

- For me, I think i'll be going with 1-1 tuition in the future. Plus, I'd want to define what we got out of the day and make sure we approached skills/obstacles in a gradual and structured kind of way, with explanation before and after. I'd rather attend a course and come away having properly learnt one core skill that i could then use in the real world, than stumble through 7 or 8 tasks, learning little. Perhaps for me a tuition session working only on berms and cornering for example would be best, making sure that by the end of the session we had done so much work on the subject that we had really moved this skill on for me and explored almost every aspect of it.

- Although it comes naturally to some people I'm sure, riding a MTB to a good standard off-road is difficult. It will take time, practice and experience to get good (lots of it too for most people). Some of the skills and techniques aren't immediately obvious by just watching someone, so i do think proper tuition is valuable.

Hope this helps.

This is really interesting as I was wary of the "trail centre" nature of Tony's set up but I've managed to transfer what I learned there to jumping off stuff in the peaks , landing on loose Rocky ground that for years I've rolled through. It's important to remember that coaching someone is a team that effort. Even the best coach can't help someone if they're looking for a magic bullet or thinking that because they've paid money (quite a lot in some cases) that they just need to sit back and wait for their purchase to be "delivered".

As a motorcycle instructor I'd every so often, come across someone who believed they were buying a licence rather than a course of tuition. They were always the hardest to teach.

I think it's quite important that coaches have access to tightly controlled "terrain". Everyone learns differently, some people are completely visual, can just watch someone demonstate once and go and do it. Other people (like me!) need much more practice and really need to "learn" to do something. Having a controlled small drop or jump is therefore necessary, one on which anyone can start without hurting themselves, and progress at their own pace. Now, i'm no jumper, but after a session with Tony i could now see a potential jump on the trail, and at the very least "size it up". Often, as a result i would decide NOT to ride it, but that itself is a useful skill to learn.

Now, in the real world, on real trails, drops are much more complex than the typical "roll straight in and out" drops used for coaching, but if you can get your technique dialled on those artificial ones, to the point of becoming automatic, well, the ones in the real world then just fall out in the wash so to speak. Yes, you will need to practice and keep yourself "current" so to speak, but at least you have a basic and correct idea of what you should and shouldn't be doing!

I went on one with some mates. Hadn't paid upfront but instructor was happy for me to join as a bit of a last minute addition. Thought I'd go and see what is was like. Teaching was ok. Offered to drive to bank and pay directly after finishing course. Instructor was all cool, no worries, pay me whenever etc in front of everyone. 2 days later started with some arsey emails for the cash. Not cool...

Now, in the real world, on real trails, drops are much more complex than the typical "roll straight in and out" drops used for coaching

More complex or just more intimidating?

Having spent quite a bit of time practising drops in the local quarry near my old house as well as various man-made obstacles including 6 foot ladder drops, this weekend I found myself approaching a drop that was just a touch too big to roll. The approach was a bit rooty and slippy and the landing was a bit rocky. I stopped, got off my bike, had a look and nearly talked myself out of attempting it. I then slapped myself round the face a bit and remembered that I knew what to do and had done it many times before. It was easy. I assume this is the coaching bit rather than the skills bit. I had the skills, but needed to coach myself into doing it.

I think some people would benefit from a 'read and understand the words in front of you' course.

You have no idea how good/bad any of the course attendees are/were nor why they are so happy at the results. "[b]anyone who benefitted from a skills course must be shit[/b]" As I said; pure bollocks.

Spot the guy who had a course but is still shit 😀

UKbikeskills do a pretty good blog so i have a bit of an idea of the standard of some of the riders who go to Jedi. As for the bit in bold above, that's something you've said, not me. Don't take it bad. I can't sing or play any instruments but don't get upset when someone tells me i'm crap. I know it already. You just need to accept the reality and move on. As long as you're having fun, it's all good.

@ Euro

I'm interested in investigating the implications of you logic there, linking ability with the need for coaching:

Are you saying any of the following?

> Jedi is not capable of coaching folk with a 'higher skill set' (you define what that is, as it's your assertion)
> You only need a coach if you're crap
> Professional sports folk don't need coaches

> Nope, by all accounts Jedi is a top coach and i'm sure he could [i]teach[/i] riders of any level something. What i meant (obviously not very clearly) is those who get the most from a course are those who didn't know how to ride that well to begin with. That's not meant as an insult, just how i see (from the blog).

> Nope, you can have a coach any time but if you already have the basics of riding covered, then there's not so much to learn from a skills course imo. Jumping is [i]the basics[/i], going round corners is [i]the basics[/i], drops are [i]the basics[/i] as is going up and down steep stuff. A good coach might be able to give you pointers on how to improve the on the basics, but if you are doing them wrong then you really didn't have them covered in the first place.

> I never mentioned professional sportsmen. I'm talking about riding a mountain bike. I'm sure in the world of professional bike riding there are coaches, but i'd bet they are more fitness and mental coaches as opposed to riding technique. Who's going to give Danny Hart tips on how to ride a bike?

He does show how simple it is

I did my first skills day in the summer. It was good but not ground breaking. There was a lot of showing you how to do it, telling you you were doing it wrong but not many tips to help you get it right. I think I have got more out of watching the fluid ride like a pro film and lopeses book.

Personally I don't agree with coaching/'skills' days.

Riding bikes should be a life long passion and the only way to build the skills needed is to spend time riding bikes, the skills come with time. Years. They embed themselves.
I'm riding far faster now in my 40's than I ever have.

You also need the ability to self analysis-if you cant round that corner quick enough then figure out why, go back try something different-is there improvement? repeat. figure it out yourself.

Crash. Falling off is part of it. Parts of my body permanently show the learning curve.

Paying someone is just cheating yourself-there isn't a quick fix. Ride more, figure it out.