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for people to support the smaller companies we have rather than PE owned megacorps
Is it more important to support the companies who employ lots of people in this country or those who don't? None of the UK offices of international bike companies that I've visited are huge, but the patriotically British businesses are tiny. Not quite one man and a dog, but often not far off. I'd guess that the Merida UK office employs more people than Orange, for instance.
it all got way deeper than I expected when posting this
Welcome to the forum 😀
Far, far too little thread deviation to be a proper welcome to the forum 😀
I try to buy from UK companies but it's not always feasible - either the product isn't what I want, or cost is prohibitive (if I was a millionaire the latter wouldn't be an issue, but I'm not). It's not a bad thing to want to support business and production within the country you reside. Not related in any way to flag shagging.
FWIW current bikes are:
- UK company, Taiwan frame (Cotic, although current version of the frame is now Portugal-made)
- UK company, German frame (Geometron)
- 2 x US company, Taiwan/China frames (SC)
I've got a cotic and a pace, what do I win?
I have an Orange and a Pace both made in the UK so I suspect you are behind me in the prize queue 😀
And who wins when the residents of every country adopt the same approach?
Well Google says Guyana is the worlds most self sufficient country (in terms of food), nobody seems to be measuring different nation's self sufficiency in terms of bicycles.
The Question does sort of imply it's possible to 'Win' at capitalism, that is a premise I often find myself at odds with.
To be Clear Far-Eastern products with British stickers are still mostly Far Eastern IMHO, the key resources and skills to make them reside overseas, the design and marketing minds behind them may be in the UK, but without someone to weld the things together, paint, box and ship the things, they are really just conceptual...
I suppose my main issue with this whole topic is accepting the idea that as a UK national, I have some sort of duty to "support" (with my disposable Income) other UK nationals who choose to get involved in the manufacture of certain goods, for no other reason than we both come from the same miserable lump of rock in the North Atlantic. But what if their product is bobbins or terrible value, what if something better exists and is available but was made in Taiwan?
Is blind consumer loyalty to the UK, a key component of other people's sense of national identity?
for no other reason than we both come from the same miserable lump of rock in the North Atlantic
Perhaps the more 'patriotic' don't think the UK is a miserable place. I for one think it's fabulous - for the most.
Anyway isn't 'shop British' just an extension of 'shop local' to support the community?
Are you against that too?
Perhaps the more 'patriotic' don't think the UK is a miserable place. I for one think it's fabulous - for the most.
Same. Old career and to an extent my new one takes me to some interesting places. I have always, and still now feel very glad to be home. It ain't perfect, but it's definitely less shit than other places.
Own a Canadian bike, Atherton next. Rather staple my balls to a passing express train than own an Orange.
are all these bikes british built ? or just british owned and far east built ??
just curious.
and 2 of our 3 bikes are british. yorkshire infact, Spa Cycles.
Three Roberts and a Brompton, so all made in the UK rather than just designed here.
Few ribbles, planet X, a boardman and a Dolan bikes to add if we're being slack on British. (We have a lot of bikes). I think we have 6 or 7 American bikes so it's a tight race.
My British designed ones are 2 Deviates, think they’re made in the far east, though one was (re)painted here.
3 that are made here are Rå (North Yorkshire), BTR (Somerset) and a Dawley (Notts) on the way.
Components from Hope, KOM, Sturdy, Dward Designs, Renthal, Carbon Wasp, Burgtec & Reilly.
Vast majority bought direct, or from an LBS.
I not ashamed to out myself as a huge Orange fan but that goes back to the early 90's and the fact the orange/white frames were the coolest bikes in the coolest shops around to me and my mates. Found girls and beer mid 90's before buying a terrible GT I-Drive thing in 1999 which put me off for another 5 years. Went back to Orange in 2004, liked that hard tail so bought a 5 in 2007. Been buying their full suss bikes ever since because I like them.
Came very close to buying a Specialized Epic last year, thought they looked great and everything about them seemed to tick all my boxes. Went to the Concept Store, had a good look at the bike and for some reason it left me cold and I couldn't bring myself to spend the money. Can't see myself buying a Giant, Canyon, Cannondale, Merida, etc....
I reckon for me I just have a natural pull to the smaller brands rather than being particularly patriotic (although I do like the fact my Stage 6 Evo was built down the road) which is what stopped me buying the Epic and led to a Transition Spur instead. The Epic was quite possibly the better option, certainly the slicker product but maybe that's what turned me off? Same with full suss Orange's, I like their industrial nature. Saying that, my Pace RC627 was a lovely product but again, not a major player....
When I was looking at gravel bikes it was Nordest I kept coming back to and they fit my profile, although I didn't actually get one, so maybe for me it comes down to character more than where it's built? Who knows, but I'm happy with my choices.
In the house
5*British brand but built it Taiwan
1*. Andorran welded in Taiwan
2* German
3* American brands ones made in china, two were welded in Taiwan
1*. Andorran welded in Taiwan
1* British through and through, British brand, steel and fabrication.
I love them all!
Could I have the same bikes from the uk- nope, that's why there are from all over. Could I have them all custom build for me by a British builder, nope they were all second hand to save cash.
I had an orange it cracked, orange replaced it and I sold the replacement as it was the wrong bike for me.
My lockdown project was a 631 tubes and fork lugged road frame. Tubes and frame building done in the UK. Lugs from Longshen, dropouts from Gippiemme I think. Really nice bike, rides beautifully and I liked the fact a lot of it was domestic made. I always liked the bikes made by local frame builders decades ago and wanted something similar. Wasn’t expensive either, less than 2x an average decent carbon road fork.
Also have a Brompton, maybe as British a bike as I can think of?
Accidentally have done for years, had x4 Oranges, an On one, a Bird and currently ride a Privateer and a Ragley. Still hanker after a Cotic FS and another Halifax hinge though.
I have Planet X and a Pinnacle - do they count as British?
How about Sick Bikes? I'm not sure I'd want to support them.
I've got a British trials bike, but it's a trials bike so probably completely irrelevant so just ignore. Not sure if it's manufactured here or not, Google AI summary seems to think it is, but Google AI isn't British so I'm less than Inspired by it.
Also a hardtail from a British company. Undoubtedly manufactured elsewhere, and flown back like a Bird.
edit: Also have a number of British components (which most likely may not be manufactured here although some are I believe)... top caps, handlebars, pedals, dropper, seat clamp.
I try when I can to support British companies but yeah finances often mean I can't. Newest bike is 2017.
Perhaps the more 'patriotic' don't think the UK is a miserable place. I for one think it's fabulous - for the most.
I suppose it depends on the circles you move in and/or your experiences of being British. It’s certainly not all sunshine and unicorns for everyone. Not that I’m complaining mind, others have it worse.
Anyway isn't 'shop British' just an extension of 'shop local' to support the community?
Are you against that too?
Against it? No, but I do recoil a bit from anyone who exalts me to “shop local” when I live in a country that merrily divested itself of most “local shops” during my childhood.
My local family butcher is 6 miles away and expensive, a 12 mile round trip for bacon sort of defeats the Local thing a bit when there’s a scummy ASDA half a mile away, I’m hardly a connoisseur and we need bread and milk too…
Similarly having some middle-class evangelical tell me I should be buying British bikes rankles a bit, when that really means hurling fist fulls of my income at some artisanal hipster with a TIG set. For my Dad it would have meant buying a relatively affordable Raleigh from a local shop that hasn’t existed for 30 years.
I guess I’m just noticing that choosing to “buy British” in a Britain that started binning most of it’s manufacturing industry four decades ago seems a little tone deaf, and it’s really only a choice available to a relatively small number of people, who themselves are perhaps part of a wider problem…
As Idlejohn alluded to, the back British only goes so far in terms of actually benefiting the work force. For example, Specialized alone directly employs nearly 200 people in the uk - how does that compare to any single British brand? Then think about how those bigger brands fit into local bike shops / motor repairs places etc - they could be adding more to the economy than many of the smaller British brands put together.
I’m all for supporting local where possible - when it offers something vaguely comparable for value. For example, I live in Yorkshire but would I buy an orange? No, the warranty is rubbish and they had a reputation for cracking, never mind the looks! But, Cotic is down the road, makes good products and I believe in the support they offer - so they will be on my shortlist for my next full suss in a few years time.
So, in short, it depends - value and quality are higher up my list than just ‘local’, but if you can get all 3 than great.
Currently,
3x Oranges (2001 Patriot...is that Patriotic enough, Stage 6 and a 2005 Taiwanese P7)
2x Pashley's (The wife's Britannia....Jeepers where's me flag, and a 50yr old Tandem)
1x Jasper (Handbuilt in Rugby, it's a replica 1920's Path racer)
1x Specialised Levo (Taiwan I assume)
1x Boardman CX (Again, I'm thinking Taiwan)
1x Dawes Tandem (Pretty sure Taiwan)
So a near 50/50 split in my garage.
For the last 25-30yrs I've pretty much always owned an Orange mountain bike, simply because they're the best I've ridden. The geometry of the frame just suits my stubby legs and long body perfectly. I'll admit though, that buying British does give me that wee feel good glow as well. Similarly, I like to deck my mountain bikes out with Hope components. Again, I like that they're British made and I'm supporting the industry, but more importantly I like Hope's durability, serviceability and shiny colours. I'm happy to pay a premium for that as well.
Any recent Orange hardtail owners can be doubly smug. British company, Taiwan built but never paid for in the administration, so all the money stayed in the UK.
I’m included in that BTW.
I have Planet X and a Pinnacle - do they count as British?
Well there are people here who are grateful for the sales, that's for sure. Keeps/kept some of us in a job. All in all I think it's less about the location of the work though and more about the skills and level of design or quality - buy from brands who understand this whole thing, walk the talk and care about your experience with the product. If they're in the UK, great.
My reason for buying a 631 frame and fork made in the Midlands was more about the actual manufacturing process and skills - metalwork and industry. I love being in frame factories in Asia, I love seeing the same thing happening on a smaller scale in the UK even more.
Three titanium bikes and at least two of them were made in the UK (Enigma fixed wheel from Sussex, and a Brompton from Sheffield and London, The Charge Freezer Ti wasn’t made here). My TT frame was hand made by Barry Chick. My next track bike probably won’t be UK made unless Hope reduce the price! More likely French.
I love the fact my Geometron can be classed as British according to this thread. It was manufactured in the same facility as my old Nicolai 🙂 (I did make a conscious decision to stay away from mega brands a long time ago though, nursing a very old Specialised Langster into it's dotage as a commuter though).
I have owned an Orange in the past and bought Islabikes for the young ones.
Been a Hope fanboy for decades though, with Burgtec in the mix as well.
I'd guess that the Merida UK office employs more people than Orange, for instance.
Came here to say basically the same thing but about Giant.
Orange also had a slightly dubious financial period recently where ethics may have gone out the window.
The idea of buying British to support Britain is a romantic falicy.
The idea of buying British to support Britain is a romantic falicy.
depends. If all we want for people is desk work, fine. I’d like to think wider options would remain including crafts that are done in workshops, so buying from brands who gave or use domestic manufacturing is always a factor for me. That also applies for brands overseas oxc. I wish that aspect of work had been more encouraged when I was at school.
(‘Shop Class as Soulcraft’ as a great read about why)
Any recent Orange hardtail owners can be doubly smug. British company, Taiwan built but never paid for in the administration, so all the money stayed in the UK.
I’m included in that BTW.
I'm not saying you're wrong but they seem to have had very little new Far East stock for ages now, long before the admin. From memory they couldn't get anything in during and after covid as they'd sold their current stock and suppliers were too busy making frames for bigger manufactures to bother with small orders. When they finally did get the back orders in a lot of it was 650b, which no one wanted anymore. You've not been able to buy an XL 29" P7 for years! IIRC this was part of the reason for the cash flow problems?
I'm certainly not saying no one got burnt though, I'm certain they did but Orange have had no stock of plenty of the Taiwan built stuff for a couple of years now.
My recent history (15 years, going backwards) reads: BTR Ranger, BTR Ranger, Stanton Switchback, Stanton Slackline, Cotic BFE, Cotic BFE, Cotic Soul, Orange 5 - a mixture of 26" 27.5" and 29". I've got a type 🤣
I'll always try and buy anything UK built or UK based; 1 because I know they're primarily designed and built for our conditions, and 2 because it does support our industries and staff. I usually also buy Hope parts where possible.
In the non-too-distant future I'll likely move back to a full-suss and perhaps even an ebike, where I expect my choices will be more limited than a failrly traditional steel hardtail...
Is it more important to support the companies who employ lots of people in this country or those who don't? None of the UK offices of international bike companies that I've visited are huge, but the patriotically British businesses are tiny. Not quite one man and a dog, but often not far off. I'd guess that the Merida UK office employs more people than Orange, for instance.
I’m not sure i where i stand on the issues here but surely we have to look at jobs per bike sold. How many people do Merida employ per sale? How many people many do Cotic employ per sale? How many people do Shand employ per sale?
Does anyone think that Merida create the most jobs per sale because they employ the most here?
Orange must score well on this as they make bikes here and sell through retail shops
I have Planet X and a Pinnacle - do they count as British?
Well there are people here who are grateful for the sales, that's for sure. Keeps/kept some of us in a job. All in all I think it's less about the location of the work though and more about the skills and level of design or quality - buy from brands who understand this whole thing, walk the talk and care about your experience with the product. If they're in the UK, great.
My reason for buying a 631 frame and fork made in the Midlands was more about the actual manufacturing process and skills - metalwork and industry. I love being in frame factories in Asia, I love seeing the same thing happening on a smaller scale in the UK even more.
One of the things that led to me choosing a Pinnacle (Arkose - 2019 model I believe) was you making yourself so available Jameso. You were clearly passionate about what you were doing, and were always answering questions from those who bought your bikes. I don't think I've seen anything quite like that from anyone else.
It certainly helped me having a bike designer happy to help with any queries I had. Thanks once again.
Currently riding a Boardman and building a Sonder.
I bought the Sonder for a couple of reasons; I love the frame and its colour scheme, they have an actual shop near me which has fantastic staff and I really like Alpkit and their stuff.
It did also help that I got a really good deal on a kit from the Alpkit Outlet too
I have a 3rd bike which is Spanish, but I've donated that to a bikeless friend and is just waiting to be picked up.
I’m not sure i where i stand on the issues here but surely we have to look at jobs per bike sold. How many people do Merida employ per sale? How many people many do Cotic employ per sale? How many people do Shand employ per sale?
Does anyone think that Merida create the most jobs per sale because they employ the most here?
Orange must score well on this as they make bikes here and sell through retail shops
Thats a total fantasy land argument.
If you want high employment per bike then you're looking at high prices to pay for that and in this economic climate that isnt sustanable in big numbers.
I know of at least two brands who were bigger employers but everyone was self employed, resulting in zero job security. By your vague reconning thats better than someone employing people properly if the profits stay onshore... Which I'm assuming probably isnt your general mindset so its clearly not as simple as that.
depends. If all we want for people is desk work, fine. I’d like to think wider options would remain including crafts that are done in workshops, so buying from brands who gave or use domestic manufacturing is always a factor for me. That also applies for brands overseas oxc. I wish that aspect of work had been more encouraged when I was at school.
(‘Shop Class as Soulcraft’ as a great read about why)
Thats more of a diversification / expanding of the job market issue though not a Buy Brittish. In general, people are not prepaired to pay for UK skilled workers.
For the gravel bikers, Fustle bikes, designed and assembled in Northern Ireland
Cotic, Orange, Starling, Deviate, Privateer, Saracen, Atherton and loads more. Bikes in every segment, hitting most price points
How many of these bikes are actually made in the UK? I imagine there are very few components on any of them that weren't brought in from overseas..(ie Saracen, Cotic, Deviate all make frames overseas)
Also how are we defining British?
Saracen is mentioned in the OP. Now we all know basically nothing of theirs is manufactured in the UK but they are a British brand... Owned by Madison, a British brand, Owned by H Young, a British brand... Owned by Lakeland, a British brand... Owned by (until recently) a Canadian, an American and someone from Bermuda. Can we call a brand who seemingly isn't/wasn't owned & run by anyone living on this continent, never mind in this country as British?
Do we accept bikes made in British territories (like Bermuda) as being British? Because they are British but they provide exactly the same British manufacturing jobs and contribute just the same to the British economy as brands that aren't British.
If you want to support UK manufacturing then that's great but don't equate that with buying British because it's far, far more complicated than that.
Thats more of a diversification / expanding of the job market issue though not a Buy Brittish
They're linked though, at least at bike manufacturing level (which I appreciate is a drop in the jobs market). Taiwan has a great manufacturing infrastructure based on export business but the UK can't do that to the same extent based on relative wages and costs. Though a local builder can export duty-free to the EU many will be relying on business in the UK for the majority of sales. For the cost of an S-Works or Project One you could have a very nice UK made custom frame - different product in some ways and both brands employ people in the UK but one supports a small UK manufacturing industry - that's the part of backing British I feel most strongly about, for no real reason above seeing it as a valued skill, a craft, something more valuable in a way than mass manufacturing. Subjective yes.. but sat here in front of a PC all week I'd rather be in a workshop more often..
In general, people are not prepaired to pay for UK skilled workers.
Unf not, I would but that's because of all this ^ plus I tend to keep bikes a long time rather than turn them over every 2-3 years so the added cost isn't as much of an influence. I think that's how many UK bike buyers would see it and it means the bikes that are made over here are at a certain quality level and often made to be the right product rather than a wider range planning tick. A lot of that applies to brands doing good stuff in the same way in other countries though, it's not a UK-only thing oc. UK made just makes buying and service points feel closer to home. Still, I look at Ioklin bikes too often and would be happy with a Cotic or Starling made in the EU.
@easily - thanks. Nice to know. If I ever get into bother for time online in work hours I may call you as a witness in defence, ha.
One thing I'll say is that Starling have always seemed very reasonably priced for a beautiful UK made, high-quality steel FS frame.
Mine was one of the best-finished frames I've owned.
Current frame price without shock is £1,850. Competitive with some stunningly average (probably heavier) aluminium frames.
No I won’t I’ll back the value for money
I’m not buying cheap or buying twice if I buy from a brand that makes their stuff in Taiwan or china I’m already getting a world class product ,Anyone that thinks the Taiwanese are not masters if their craft is a fool
If you want high employment per bike then you're looking at high prices to pay for that and in this economic climate that isnt sustanable in big numbers.
My point was that we should look at employment in the uk per sale. To balance the idea that Merida employe more people than Cotic. It’s not more people employed per sale it’s more uk people employed per sale. At that point i wasn’t arguing about whether we did or shouldn’t be buying British. Just how we should make the comparison.
I’m not in the market for a Brompton but they seem to be a company that provides good employment and training in the uk. If i could support that with a purchase i would
I own 3 pairs of Hope Hubs. I like the fact that I’m supporting jobs in the uk. Of course there still has to be quality and value but I’m happy that I’m getting that too.
I was surprised to see "flag shagging" accusations on the thread. Buying locally made stuff is just common sense. You support the economy you live in and improve the country's balance of payments, that benefits you.
On topic We've got a couple of Bromptons, a Dawes tandem from when they were still hand-brazed in Tyseley, a made to measure tandem made in the Black Country and a Pashley unicycle.
Most of my other bikes are French because that's my other nationality, I've got two flags to shag if you see it that way, however the French content is low to non-existant in the more recent bikes; frames from Taiwan etc.
This usually means spending more, 50% more doesn't worry me and even double I'll put up with, but the quality has to be there, I'm not paying more for something shoddy or unsuitable just because it's made locally.
So I have preferences:
1/ Very local, Kiwami is a couple of friends so I can watch my kit being cut out and sewn up from European materials.
2/ French or British and properly so
3/ neighbouring countries such as Spain Italy and Germany
4/ Europe
5/ European brands made abroad in friendly countries
6/ Friendly countries from around the world so places like Japan, Canada, parts of North Africa...
7/ the countries I boycott within reason
Same goes for everything I buy: car, hob, washing machine, bed, matress, sink, taps (three times the price for Portugese rather than chinese recently, I winced even if they're a thing of beauty), clothes, furniture, cutlery (Thiers), plates (Denby), glasses (Duralex), tomatoes... .
I'd rather contribute to my local economy than contribute to its demise.
The problem is that all the British brands mentioned are a bit “niche”. If that’s your sort of thing then great. However with all of them you’re compromising on features, the two that jump immediately to mind being in frame storage and adjustable geometry. And that’s before you get into choice of frame material. The main advantage of steel is that it’s easier for small manufacturers to work with. And not much else, unless you’re needing a world touring bike that can be welded anywhere. Titanium lugged carbon is a spendy way to customise a frame. Again, great if that’s what you really want, but it’s a niche market.
The big manufacturers make good all round bikes that the smaller ones struggle to compete with, which is why they cater to niche markets. But if you’re not in the niche that they’re aimed at, in most cases you’re better off with one of the big names. I know I am anyway.
However with all of them you’re compromising on features, the two that jump immediately to mind being in frame storage and adjustable geometry
Not sure I'd agree. For sure the biggest brands lead the feature/gimmick stakes if that's what you're after. A Starling Murmur is more adjustable then most FS bikes - buy a 135mm bike, can use it as a 120mm or 160mm. Big brands would rather sell you 3 different bikes...
I'd say they're different products for a different buyer type and that's fine, all good.
The main advantage of steel is that it’s easier for small manufacturers to work with.
It's an advantage but there are UK and US custom/batch builders working in aluminium too. Brazing is easier to pick up than TIG welding but it's not like there's no skilled TIG welders about who are into bikes and could turn a hand to it - plenty of Ti builders about. Alu is just lower perceived value, hard to make it work unless mass produced.
I'd say the main advantage of steel for a small brand is bikes lasting well/longer in general and the potential ride quality - both things appealing to the buyer paying a bit more for what smaller brands make over here or in the EU, with a view to keeping the bike longer. I think it's about a longer-term subjective purchase decision Vs the mass market Al bike being a shorter-term more objective buy.
Not intending to get into a what material is best debate as there's no answer, just saying that steel has fans and mass production manufacturers have left that door open.
Not anymore, Ratio, in the lakes, are working on one (if not released already)
Somebody has been working on rear mechs for the thirty odd years I've been using Shimano or SRAM. I've been holding my breath for so long...
Aaand Breathe
I recently bought a made in Sussex gravel/ allroad/ big-tyred-road type bike thing from Enigma and it is by some margin the nicest riding frame I've ever owned, and I've ridden a few from the best of the usual suspects. A big part if that decision was to have something as durable as possible and made locally to lower its environmental impact, and also to support domestic manufacturing... but it's also possible to get something made just the way you want it and a mm perfect fit as long as you know what you want - which is a different and better proposition to yet another disposable toxic jellymould plopped out and shipped from the other end of the planet...