Once upon a time in the dim and distant past (the 80's) on a planet not unlike ours I used to fix and service my own cars and was quite happy to do so. I used a Haynes manual to guide me as the internet only existed on Star Trek, Star wars, etc. Nowadays open the bonnet on even the most basic family saloon and it's likely to be covered in a large plastic cover which might as well say "DANGER DO NOT GO BEYOND THIS POINT". Cars are packed with so many computers, electronics and other clever stuff that it is way beyond most people to fix even simple faults. It once took me an hour to change a light bulb on my VW Passat as I had to remove all the air intake bits first to get at it! I am generalising here, so bear with me.
This week on STW I read the latest Shimano releases about automatic electronic gear changes and ABS brakes and began to think "are bicycles getting too complicated?". I guess I am really talking about e-bikes now, but they have probably overtaken muscle powered bikes in the "new bike" sales market. Are these changes, automatic gears, ABS, 4 pot brakes, etc, really only needed on e-bikes? I haven't felt the need for any of them on my carbon Stumpjumper. So are the days of the casual home bike mechanic numbered? In 10 years time will people be taking their bikes to a service centre to be plugged into a laptop (yes I know this already happens for a lot of e-bikes) to read the plethora of sensors which will monitor all aspects of the bike and tell the e-mechanic which bits to replace?
And another fing ....
Who ever wrote the Shimano press release definitely graduated from the school of Business BS & Bollox!
If Shimano and the rest of the manufactures are so clever why have we still got ****in' derailleurs hanging off of the bike in the most vulnerable place possible!
Straight answer... no... but eBikes are far more complicated and less suitable to home servicing than normal bikes.
And Shimano have had hub gears for decades. People choose derailleurs for mtb.
To be fair I think they got too complicated about the time elastomers stopped featuring in suspension forks 😀
If Shimano and the rest of the manufactures are so clever why have we still got ****’ derailleurs hanging off of the bike in the most vulnerable place possible!
As pointed out in the numerous threads over the years asking the same point, gearboxes are always going to be more expensive and have more friction than derailleurs. If you want a bike with a gear hub or a frame mounted gearbox, they are available so the question is, why do you still ride derailleur equipped bikes when you could buy a gearbox bike?
It doesn't have to be that way. Only if you have the need for gadgetry.
One of the criteria for my Shand was low maintenance.
Some bikes are complicated, most aren't. I actively choose to buy relatively simple bikes exactly so I can easily fix it myself at home.
Almost as complicated as plurals.
If Shimano and the rest of the manufactures are so clever why have we still got ****’ derailleurs hanging off of the bike in the most vulnerable place possible!
When someone does move them, without resorting to IHG or gearboxes, plenty folk don’t like it.
...but they have probably overtaken muscle powered bikes in the “new bike” sales market.
I very much doubt that, and I reckon I've got 30-35 years left before I consider one.
But yeah, a lot of extra complexity in the name of marginal gains. Technically it interests me, but I don't want to own or pay a premium for it.
Nowadays open the bonnet on even the most basic family saloon and it’s likely to be covered in a large plastic cover which might as well say “DANGER DO NOT GO BEYOND THIS POINT”.
Yep, saw some guy whose car wouldn't start and he had the bonnet up looking at the engine. Not exactly sure what he thought he would be able to fix to get it running but he may has well not even bothered opening it.
<p style="text-align: left;">My first MTB was a Rockhopper in 1986, my latest bought a few weeks ago a rigid Whippet</p>
<p style="text-align: left;">The headset is easier to adjust on the Whippet compared to the threaded headset on the Rockhopper</p>
<p style="text-align: left;">The hydraulic disk brakes are easier to set just right than the cantilevers</p>
<p style="text-align: left;">The bottom bracket may not last 5 years but it will be easier to remove than a square taper that's been in forever.</p>
<p style="text-align: left;">1x10 has at least as many useful gears as the 3x5 I started with</p>
<p style="text-align: left;">Maybe indexing can be seen as an added complication over friction shifters but the advantages far outweigh any extra faff in setting them up.</p>
<p style="text-align: left;"><span style="">If there is a negative it is the increase in standards that means parts are not as interchangeable as they once were. Different of course if you are comparing a bike that is nothing like the bikes of the 80's, you can't introduce a whole load more moving parts without additional complication</span></p>
I haven’t felt the need for any of them on my carbon Stumpjumper.
You can't ask whether things are getting too complicated when you are riding a complicated bike yourself. This is the cycling equivalent of declaring that the music you listened to in your teens was the best ever and nobody has made better music since. 😀
I ride a Simple!
I used to fix and service my own cars and was quite happy to do so. I
Thing is they needed fixing and maintaining a lot. Nowadays the average car is more reliable, more capable, looks after itself and better at just being a car.
The problem with the added complexity of bikes is it hasn't come with the addition of reliability, quite the opposite. They've followed the 21st century model of short life spans, sealed units and disposables.
It's not added complexity that's the issue
I ride a Simple!
Is it?
I ride a Simple!
❤️
The problem with the added complexity of bikes is it hasn’t come with the addition of reliability, quite the opposite.
No, that's not my experience at all, compared to the bikes I rode and raced in the 90s which were always breaking. I can go months without having to look at my MTBs despite using them several times a week, and my gravel bike has done almost 2000 miles of daily commuting since buying it in February with just an occasional rinse and lube.
Once you have your suspension in your happy place then it’s not really getting more complicated. Gears are simple with no front mech and dropper pays aren’t complicated to operate.
motorised bikes are way more complicated with modes and charging to consider on to
You can still buy a kit car an enthusiast can build themselves in a shed.
Most people don't.
There will be a choice in the market place
gazzab1955
If Shimano and the rest of the manufactures are so clever why have we still got ****’ derailleurs hanging off of the bike in the most vulnerable place possible!
Because they work and ...
thols2
As pointed out in the numerous threads over the years asking the same point, gearboxes are always going to be more expensive and have more friction than derailleurs.
However ... back to the original Q as you asked
tj
It doesn’t have to be that way. Only if you have the need for gadgetry.
Only its not quite true .. and depends to a large extent on where you start to call stuff gadgetry or complex which is very subjective.
Case in point perhaps is drivechains... for me PERSONALLY I view 1xNW and a clutch as "not gadgetry" but I'm willing to accept someone else might call that gadgetry but overall I see it as a simplification over 2x or 3x.
On the other hand I view 11sp and 12sp as unnecessary gadgetry... again I'm happy to accept some people won't though.
I guess my point is one persons gadget is another persons necessity.
I feel even stronger on electronic items, even on an ebike... ironic as that is.
I'll happily use SatNav but I absolutely cannot use anything with health monitoring even if its not connected.
gazzab1955
“DANGER DO NOT GO BEYOND THIS POINT”. Cars are packed with so many computers, electronics and other clever stuff that it is way beyond most people to fix even simple faults. It once took me an hour to change a light bulb on my VW Passat as I had to remove all the air intake bits first to get at it! I am generalising here, so bear with me.
I really hate this as well and a mate/ex colleague summed it up.
He's a facilities engineer and said something like how his modern car performance (power/mpg etc.) is better in every way than the old car but that there is something intrinsically wrong with something you can't fix yourself.
I was brought up very much that if you don't understand how something works and can't fix it you really shouldn't be using it but that doesn't even make sense in today's world especially as so much is made specifically to be non repairable even if you do understand how it works.
In my head I try and separate these.. I guess to illustrate.. I know HOW to change a car tyre but I'm not going to try it at home... HOWEVER I'll change to a spare wheel and drive it to a repair place or plug it myself... I don't subscribe to the way you repair a flat is by driving on it to the repair place until its totally wrecked.
For me that means run flats are unnecessary but tubeless tyres aren't...
Then again I'm the last person to think I'd like a kindle... but seems I was wrong and I'm a total convert
I'll leave this with some further sad news that Nikon have just announced the end to their development of SLR's ... personally I'm stuck with a D300 and my old FG anyway as I always refused to have a camera capable of shooting video because for me that's just me... I see a digital sensor as OK but mirrorless or adding video as pointless complexity and gadgetry.
No one is proposing to stop making cable actuated gears and brakes.
you can go out and buy a rigid single speed if you want, anything more complicated than that is option, so no i wouldnt say so. They are toys after all, if people want all singing all dancing then why not? if its progressing it as a sport and enabling top tiers to go faster within the bounds of the rules, why not?
Ill stick with stuff i can service myself, personally, but im not gonna hold it against anyone who wants to spend their hobby money on fancy bits.
Back in the 90s/00s my bike used to break pretty much every time I rode it. Now it barely ever goes wrong. Yes when bits do need serviced (suspension) they need sent away or dealt with by a specialist but other than that its all much the same - just more robust.
Is it?
pretty much. no dropper or gps, it has a lockout (fox floats) that i never use, and I havem't changed the rebound in 5 years.
Well, I ride a hardtail singlespeed with a rigid fork and let me tell you...
er, something or other.
Too complicated? No. Not relative to what you get these days
Olly
No one is proposing to stop making cable actuated gears and brakes.
Nope but they will stop making them in a decent quality
Noone (initially) proposed stopping making non boost hubs, pre metric shocks or 26" forks or such but you are pretty limited in what and the quality you can get.
Some bikes are so simple these days that a lot of the parts come out of a printer!
No one is proposing to stop making cable actuated gears.
They already have at the spendy end of the market. Red, Dura Ace, no doubt XX1 and XTR to follow.
There's people out there that have never changed an inner tube on their bicycle or a wheel on their car. Basic stuff that people are willing to pay others to do for them.
I agree that things are getting more complicated at the pointy end of new technology. I'd always pick a bike with more basic suspension and with more established standards and technology, just so I can at least do basic maintenance at home.
Comparing e-bikes is a bit apples and oranges.
Differing standards are a bit frustrating, both in terms of sourcing the correct parts and having the right tools. But outside of that I'd say a lot about modern bikes are in some ways simpler and just work better. When I think back to the 80s and 90s, I remember headsets that wouldn't stay tight, the dark arts of cup and cone wheel bearings, and even the finicky ways of tightening wheel nuts.
Also, its true modern cars are much more complicated, but they'll also often tell you exactly what's wrong with them. Back in the 80s you'd strip down every component one by one, until you eventually found the one causing the problem.
Yes, its the latest thing dont you know ?. All the pros are using it/them.
I have found myself in a situation where I couldn't cook my dinner because my oven had crashed.
Stuff has definitely become needlessly compplicated, but that doesn't make all new ideas bad.
They already have at the spendy end of the market. Red, Dura Ace, no doubt XX1 and XTR to follow.
That's because you need something to distinguish the top groupset. The top end cable actuated rear mechs will still be just as good.
There’s people out there that have never changed an inner tube on their bicycle or a wheel on their car. Basic stuff that people are willing to pay others to do for them.
I would make a strong guess that more than 50% of people are in that camp.
No one is proposing to stop making cable actuated gears.
Tomhoward
They already have at the spendy end of the market. Red, Dura Ace, no doubt XX1 and XTR to follow.
Being pedantic they didn't propose they just did... (or I should say didn't?)
I guess that's par for the course though... they always say "you'll still be able to buy" then just stop selling it quietly.
Cue the release of metric shocks with "but you'll still be able to buy - we aren't stopping making ... " ... now it's pretty much a couple of CC and a handful of Marzocchi
I ride a Simple!
Mine got stolen the little shits
I'm with the OP. I love simplicity because I love tinkering with stuff, and it stops being fun when it gets too complicated and faffy. I've even gone back to mechanical disc brakes for this reason!
Hysro discs are much simpler than cable with fewer moving parts!
Yep - I could get my BB7s set up really well but only by having minimal pad clearance that made wheel changes a pain. I changed to hydros and they are much simpler. Other than pad changes they are maintenance free - no "cable stretch", no linkages etc.
I hate press fit bottom brackets.
🙁
Yep – I could get my BB7s set up really well but only by having minimal pad clearance that made wheel changes a pain. I changed to hydros and they are much simpler. Other than pad changes they are maintenance free – no “cable stretch”, no linkages etc.
+1
1500+ miles on the hydros on my daily commuter. Not needed a pad change yet, and best of all, no faffing about with pad clearance every few evenings. Even better, no issues with sorting pad clearance in the middle of a long ride in poor weather. Cable discs can be stuffed where light doesn't reach..
Cars are packed with so many computers, electronics and other clever stuff that it is way beyond most people to fix even simple faults.
No, it's really not. In fact somewhat easier because often the computer tells you what's wrong, you don't need a large body of diagnostic knowledge like you used to. In the old days people knew what say, noisy tappets sounded like because that was something you had to keep track and fix yourself. Owning and running a car was a far more hands-on process and so in many cases was driving one. So people knew how to do stuff because they needed to know.
As for bikes - there are new more complex ones available, but the simple ones are still around. You are free to purchase one.
I think my current 1x SRAM is probably the most reliable drivetrain I've had. It's ridiculously hard wearing, and stays in tune in a way that's almost uncanny. Apart from adjusting the B tension and oiling the chain, I can't remember the last time it needed "servicing" in any traditional sense of the word. My Enduro's done over 6500miles and not had an easy life, it's had 2 chains and it was replaced because it was 3 years old not because it'd had stretched. Same with the BB. Same with bleeding brakes and pad life and cables...Modern bikes (in comparison to even just 10 years ago) are really excellent.
This ebike motor and gearbox combo looks interesting... Not sure if it makes thinks more simple or complicated though!
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/orange-reveals-a-gearbox-belt-driven-emtb-using-the-intradrive-motor.html
https://www.intra-drive.com/product_EMTB/
Working in a bike shop I'd say no they aren't getting too complicated really.
What is getting silly though is manufactures pushing internal cabling to the masses. Bar and headset cabling on road bikes can turn what should be at most a half hour job into hours and some MTBs are starting to come with them now as well! Absolutely no need.
Buy that aero road bike if you want but be prepared for a big bill if it needs a brake hose re-routing or a cable outer changing!
It's a similar thing on ebikes as the routing can be complicated by the motor but even we do very little with the actual electrical side of then so that's a non issue at the moment.
Oh and varying competing pointless standards driven by marketing and profit motives. The amount of tooling needed is getting silly..
I think they got too complicated about the time elastomers stopped featuring in suspension forks
I think they got too complicated about the time they started having suspension forks 🙂
My favourite bike at the moment is my Whippet. Of course it has benefited from some of the advances of the last few decades: carbon frame, disc brakes, huge cassette - but it has no dropper, no suspension, and a single chainring. I love the simplicity, and it feels really light, stiff, and solid - no rattles anywhere.
I know what the OP means about motor vehicle maintenance. I used to do all the work on my old Vespas myself, but I cannot even change the lightbulbs on a modern version. On the other hand the old Vespas always needed fettling (and carburettor cleaning), whereas the new models don't seem to need anything.