After riding a 100mm travel xc bike for a year i was ready to go into the world of FS bikes .
But then i stumbled across the world of so caled Hardcore hardtails ore all mountain hardtails or what ever you want to call them. After loking into it i started to like the concept of the simplicity ,the look and all that jazz
my question is : are they fun to ride ?
In a word yes!
I have a 2007 Marin Rocky Ridge which was one of the first long travel hardtails from a mainstream manufacturer. 140mm Fox forks and great SRAM/Hayes kit.
Brilliant value, cheap to run and capable of riding most stuff.
Previously had an FS bike. It was a bit more comfortable but a pain to maintain.
What bikes are you looking at?
Sonder transmitter carbon. Gives me a stalk.
Yes, yes they are.
I love my BFe for the simplicity. No bearings or bushings, no shock to pump up, I just ride it. I also enjoy the direct feeling, compared to a full sus, I know exactly what is going on below the tyres at any given moment, you can really feel when approaching the edge of the grip.
If coming from an XC hardtail, they will feel like a whole new world of comfort and stability, but still challenging to ride. Get yourself over to a BMX track or pump track to hone your skills and get the most out of it.
They are a riot. Not as quick through the rough as a decent FS, but more engaging and satisfying. I miss mine, the only bike I regret selling.
Yeah, don't even need big travel. My c456 had its faults, but I ran it at 120mm and it was the most fun bike I've ever had.
I reckon so, my Ragley Ti was easily the best hardtail I've ever ridden. It's a good trick- capable enough to not feel held back, but not so good as to feel like cheat mode.
It depends on your definition of fun.
If fun is clattering about on rough stuff, at sub FS speeds and you like the feedback and communicative qualities of a hardtail and enjoy the satisfaction of clearing stuff that wasn't that easy, then yes.
If fun is slamming into everything at warp speed, relying on peak traction and comfort to get your kicks, then maybe not.
Be warned. Aggro hardtails can, if not done right, be pigs to climb and dull everywhere other than descending.
They're hardly any lighter that their FS brethren due to the demanding nature of the riding and the robust builds required.
That said, if I had to have one bike, the days it's would be my hardtail.
Of course, you can get the same ride qualities from an FS, but you need to max out the terrain to acheived it, which limits your options to a smaller and smaller pool of riding destinations.
They're excellent, as long as your local riding isn't too rough, then they're just tiring
My Vitus would have been a hardcore hardtail a few years ago, not so much these days (66° HA 140mm forks) and it's brilliant a Cannock, was good at some of the 7 Stanes too, but it was knackering at Afan.
Most definitely yes, but as above it depends on your definition of fun. I've had a Bfe, a Trans AM and a Stache and loved them all. I tried full suss, but didn't like it. Then again I don't really ride anywhere that needs it. The new Bfe looks like a great bike.
I have a trail ready fat bike (ht) and it is ridiculously fun, it's also great for XC
Down here in Hampshire I reckon they are the perfect bike. Most trails are loamy or chalky with tree roots everywhere but very few actual rocks (bar the flints in the chalk). No real need for a big full sus in my opinion & im finding that I am within a couple of seconds at worse on my Slackline to the times I was getting on my Bandit.
I think if I lived somewhere rocky with longer descents and climbs I may still prefer my fs though.
They're a bicycle. Bicycles are fun, therefore yes.
I normally pick my Shan over my Rocket. Don't know why. Just have an enduring love of a simple hardtail and wanging it about everywhere.
Depends, generally agree with ScienceOfficer.
There are some very rooty trails near me where my 26 Hardtail is simply sheeeeeite. Hangs up on everything and it really really hard work and tiring. But like mattbee said, on the right trails they are brillbags
Just recently built up a 45650b and it is preposterously good fun, I find I'm standing to riding everything, not because its isn't comfortable to sit and ride, but it just makes me want to give all the beans, all the time. Doing wonders for my fitness. I only bought the 456 frame to hang the bits on but currently thinking I'm keeping it.
Smashed a load of PBs on local descents, wasn't even trying. Friend just got a Morph, and he's similar, riding behind him his whole riding style has changed, much less passive, much more engaged, and he keeps giggling for no immediately apparent reason.
Only time they're not much fun is on lumpy ups imo. On lumpy downs they're great if you carry enough speed (and don't mind blurred vision 😆 )
Yes, I'm still using my old Alpitude with 160mm Marzocchis in Greece. I'd hoped to have built up another LV 301 to ship out for this autumn but I just haven't got round to finishing it, so the hardtail will be getting some more abuse.
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I really still enjoy riding it - I just wish it had a 30.9mm seat tube, and not 30mm, so I could use a 150mm dropper post.
Forks are shim stack converted 55 TST2.
I have a Cotic BFe and it's great fun. It has 160 mm forks.
There's nothing that you CAN'T ride - some stuff is a bit tougher but that's about it.
Yes. Superb fun.
I'm currently in love with my Dailled Alpine with 170mm Marzocchis. It's a hoot to ride. Slower on my local trails than either a lightweight XC bike or a FS but who cares.
I've had a Chameleon and 456 too. I ride the hell out of my 853 Inbred too.
Down here in Hampshire I reckon they are the perfect bike.
Only time they're not much fun is on lumpy ups imo. On lumpy downs they're great
Just recently built up a 45650b and it is preposterously good fun,
There are some very rooty trails near me where my 26 Hardtail is simply sheeeeeite. Hangs up on everything and it really really hard work and tiring.
All of the above, used to live in the South East and had a 456-evo, a Dialled Alpine, a 45650b and a Ragley Piglet at one point or another.
Perfect bikes for messing around on, you probably won't win any races but it's fun nonetheless and some races have a HT category anyway if that's your thing.
Because we had a small house, no garden, no garage and no shed it lived in the front room which the other half was remarkably tolerant about but it limited me to one bike.
So, on uplift jaunts to FoD, Wales etc I'd have no choice but to take the HT, it was great fun...obviously I was slower going down than most of the FS gang but I used to get a smile and a knowing nod from most riders on the day, they know it's tough, you've brought your HT to the party, you're the big daddy....at least that's what I used to tell myself!
Long story short, moved to Wales for a better life, more time on the bike, better property for the money etc but now these uplift centres and local off piste steep stuff are my local trails...so I caved and bought a FS, it's bloody brilliant (how could it not be?, it's the natural evolution) but I was missing something....cue a Dartmoor Hornet frame purchase and the use of 26 inch spare parts I had lying around and I had another hardcore HT!
It doesn't get used as much as it did down South I'll be honest and if I'm honest with myself although the angles were brilliant (longer in the TT than my previous bikes, lower BB, slacker HA than any of the previous HTs etc) I never really fell in love with the looks....i like thin/narrow steel tubing.
Hence I'm now in the process of transferring all the parts over onto a Ragley Blue Pig frame instead...it's the day-glo orange one from 2011 and I've sourced matching coloured pedals, grips, saddle and stem...subtle it is not.
Only concession to modern standards is I've fitted a -1.5 degree angleset to get it to where the Hornet is geometry wise.
I think you can tell I'm a fan of aggro HTs and like someone else said, if I had to go back to one bike it'd be a HT....and probably the 45650b...which I'd run with 26 inch wheels (or a 26 inch rear) to make it lower and more extreme.
Love em.
I've had a few thinking back; three Chameleons, original Sub Zero, a horrid Norco that didn't last, BFe, Tazer, 853 Slackline and three Switchbacks (previous Ti was stolen).
I often find myself tempted back to full suss bikes so buy one but invariably end up back on a hardtail. They seem to suit my local trails pretty well.
Awful. I think you need a long-travel full suspension sofa.
In a world where even XC bikes are getting longer, lower and slacker I struggle to see the point for most usages. The only time they may be of any use is if you ride pump tracks and/or if you like riding in the winter gloop.
I think my Ragley Marley falls into this bracket. It's still my preferred mountain bike for most of the trails round Aviemore/Rothiemurchus/Feshie area. The Occam works better on bigger/higher routes though
I'd suggest seeing if you can test ride one or borrow one.
I love my 150mm travel slackline but it's a marmite niche of biking.
I ride mine up in Yorkshire with all sorts of rocky shite and it's capable enough to get through some nasty stuff.
Would i be quicker on a FS? Probably.
Would i be more satisfied at the bottom of a difficult shute? Doubt it
Yes.
Direct answer to the OP:
Yes.
More roundabout answer:
Yes, but you and certain parts of the bike take more of a battering than on a full sus.
I have both a Codeine 29r FS and a Cotic Soul 26 with 140mm Revs. Codeine hardly ever gets ridden .
I've got an old 456 frame paired up with a 140mm fork. It's amazing. I love it. It's capable enough to ride the gnar but not so capable as to make the less demanding trails boring... some might even say that it makes the trails come alive. Cost me peanuts to build and i'd recommend one to anybody if you like actual riding rather than talking about it or replacing suspension bushings.
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The BFe and the Sonder both look sweet too, as does the Production Privee.
Get one.
The fun is from the trail. Not the bike so much. If the trail is dull it is dull on whatever bike. If its fun then it'll probably be fun on any capable bike. Then going faster makes I more fun
^^YMMV but I always found that hardtails feel faster than full suss because of the 'no cushion' effect. Going over twenty mph on a hardtail down steep and rocky descents can be pants shittingly awesome. The same on a long travel fulll suss feels meh!
I love my hardcore HT..chroma root down..29er with 140mm pikes.
I'd be way quicker on a full suss... but..
I'm only on this planet for a short time, and of that short time I can only ride for an even shorter time..ergo, a HT is the perfect compromise between "finishing a trail too quickly (as a FS would) and dying on the trail (Rigid)"
Probably 😉
DrP
They're a 'do it all' hardtail in my opinion. I mean, they're awesome, I love my NSCore, but it's a jack of all trades... so compromises have to be made. Usually these compromises come in terms of climbing. It's no mountain goat, more of a wounded bear on the climbs. But it's nimble and a proper short-arse so you can manhandle it through all sorts of tight techy stuff.
The talk of not good on rough rocky stuff, I dunno, I figure that's more down to style of biking. If you're loose enough and move your body enough the rear wheel will roll over most anything. But it's the rider making it do all this. The geometry of a hardcore hardtail is more suited to moving your body around the bike quickly. I say buy one, any one. You won't regret it.
What would be the general definition of hardcore hardtail these?
I mean in terms of fork lengths and geomerty etc. Much of the definition I have in my mind links somewhere in 26er world I guess, when I had a Kona Blink that I tweaked a bit.
65ish deg HA 150mm+ Fork IMO.
For 650b right?
What about 29er?*
*just seeing where one of my bikes and a few I've tried of my riding buddies fit in tbh.
I tried a 150mm hard tail and didn't like the feeling on super steep but not super fast descents, losing 150mm from the front end was disconcerting.
The rest of the time it was alright.
As others have said, it depends on where you ride and your riding style. I use my modern slack 650b ht for shorter rides and technical stuff where it's a right laugh but it's not so much fun on moorland drags and the like. For longer rides I go for my 29" fs. If I could only have one I'd have a dilemma but probably keep the full suss.
My 26" Shan with 170mm forks is great fun (when I ever get to ride it). Not sure I'd be without my Capra for it though
For 650b right?What about 29er?*
*just seeing where one of my bikes and a few I've tried of my riding buddies fit in tbh.
Angles are about the same, but probably 130/140mm fork I reckon.
Is there such thing as a non-fun mountain bike?
That Sonder has been added to my n+1 list. But I wonder how suitable it would be on steep Alps switchbacks, which is the sort of terrain I now 'need' a bike for (once a year). The fork compression and steepening head angle might make a FS a better option. But there's no doubt I would use a hardcore HT more often the rest of the year.
They're pure fun. If you value fun above all other factors when you go for a ride, get one.
If you're concerned about strava times, racing, comfort, training, etc probably better with a FS.
@corroded I don't find the steepening HA so much of an issue on switchbacks, as a full sus steepens up when your weight is forward on that sort of thing. It's more landing squirrely drops when you notice that. Hence since moving to a reasonably slack HT I've not had an issue, I've also got a carbon Transmitter on my shopping list.
You do need to make sure your compression and rebound is dialled in properly, otherwise you'll quickly swallow up 140mm which isnt fun as it changes the feel of the bike massively when you're at the bottom of the travel.
But once you've learnt how that should feel my C456 with 140mm was pretty good fun.
A little more to add..
Don't get me wrong; I'd love to have a FS to play about and race on, but for most of my local (and less so) riding, a hardcore HT is just more..well..fun!
THe root down is like a 'big' BMX! Popping off roots, jumping logs etc etc.
It's just great fun. A goon really.
Also, it does climb really well too.
I agree what's been said about having the forks dialled - I've got the Luftkappe mod and it's made some great Pike forks AMAZING...
Worth it TBH
DrP
Got the MRP cartridge damper in my Revs on the front of my HT, a decent fork setup does make the difference...mind you don't get me started on how you have to fit MRP or Luftkappe add ons or tokens to get a £500 - £1000 fork working properly.
Grrrr....
Definitely fun bikes! I'm hoping to pick up an On One Deedar frame bargainously cheap soon, and build it into a 150-160mm hardcore hardtail.
Currently debating wheels (and forks, and many other bits). Trying to work out if a 26" rear wheel with a 2.8" tyre is a good idea, with a 27.5" front with a 2.5" or 2.6" tyre.
I've already run one plus bike, and it just seems to sensible on a HT, having that volume on the rear tyre. Thats the biggest difference with a 2.8 vs a 2.5 IMO - the side walls are much taller, giving more volume, even if the gain in width is minimal.
Thoughts?
I really like them but and am just about to build a Shan up as my winter ride but on dry fast lumpy summer trails I prefer my 29er full bouncer. For me it's best have both and but if I could only have one it would probably be the full sus as ultimately long days are easier.
Yes yes yes. I have a Cotic BFe and a Transition Covert. Both lovely bikes but I ride the Cotic much more, the Covert is Alps holidays only really these days. The reason being the BFe is a such a laugh and for the trails I can ride (inc normal Surrey Hills, QECP stuff) it makes the ride more engaging. The Covert just rumbles over everything (I can ride) and makes it all seem a bit boring, its only really in Alps I need it. I don't care about speed, the Covert is faster but slower and "bumpy" is good for me
Yes. Great fun. Love my shan. The nomad is far more acomplished in every way but i still take the shan instead some of the time. And it looks better, which is vital...
Isn't a hardcore hardtail just like a full suspension bike with a lockout rear shock? Or am i missing something?
Soft if you want and an instant hardtail if you want to feel it come alive through the pedals?
My Dartmoor hornet is a blast
Had a bit of taste for one last Christmas. I built up a Commencal Meta HT, but I wasn't keen on it (too short and tall).
It was designed for a 160mm fork, but I used my fox 34 150mm and fitted an angleset.
It didn't really improve it to be honest and now I'm back on a 2016 Stumpy (a bit too small). I'm still intrigued and maybe I'll build another with a more suitable frame.
I'm tempted to just sell the Stumpy or see if I can sell the frame and buy a nice hardtail (Stif Morf, P7 etc).
to be honest, I think BTR have it right with a hardcore hardtail. Shorter travel forks with aggressive geometry. I'd want to try something like that.
They're terrible and I totally will be helping you by taking yours off your hands, very cheap.
I just had a look at the BTR page..... I wish I hadn't.
29" Ranger and a happy meal please.
Haha andykirk, I think I'm still regretting not going for one when I had the chance instead of being put off hardtails by the Meta...
I hope they are; I am building up a BFe at the moment!
Hardtails are awesome, BFes are awesome, everything is awesome!
I've had far too much coffee.
edit- I find the BFe's best with 130-ish mm forks in the front for general mooching about and trail centre reddery.
edited again- I've tried 26+ in the BFe and I've gone 'back' to plain old 26" (in a 650B frame) because even though the bigger tyres grip for days I just prefer the sketch and bump of the smaller tyres.
Aggro hardtails can, if not done right, be pigs to climb and dull everywhere other than descending.
This is what I found to be honest. Descending, I didn't miss the rear suspension much, if at all. I *did* miss it when climbing technical trails though, where it was much harder to keep traction than with a full susser. Not fun and hard work. Flat, non-technical terrain was a chore too, but to be fair it's a chore on my full susser too 😆
In summary, I enjoyed my "hardcore hardtail", but largely because it was a much more capable descender than I expected. It wasn't quite the all-rounder I thought it might be.
I had an early steel 456.. built on a budget.
I rode it mostly at 110mm travel.
I could clatter down anything that Dartmoor threw at me, back end sliding and skipping about.. I always felt like I was on the edge and it was a total hoot. A total hooligan tool to be used and abused as hard as poss.
Not being the fittest I struggled to keep up on the ups.
Cos it was such a capable little thing, I naturally assumed that more travel would equal more fun, but with anything more than 130mm it handled like a total pig, I started bailing out regularly on steep DH stuff due to the excessive unbalanced travel, and quickly fell out of love with it.
Long travel on hardtails just doesn't make sense to me. Riding the front wheel suddenly becomes riding a pogo stick.
I've only ever ridden 'trail' (='hardcore'?) hardtails.
Obviously they are a blast, and you will probably notice a bigger difference moving from an XC hardtail to a trail hardtail than you would moving from a 'trail' hardtail to a full suss.
Yunki's note about travel is a good one, though.
My last two bikes have run the same 140mm fork and I have really enjoyed both of them, but for most of my local riding (twisty and moderately sloped woods with some techy bits) my 120mm Reba running Evo 2 26er was probably my favourite bike.
Smashing down rocky, open stuff in the Peaks is easier on a 140mm fork than it was on a 120mm, but everything is a compromise and I found the 120mm fork more immediate and it made the ride much snappier.
If anyone knows where my lovely Evo2 is (lovely red with splodges of pillarbox red where I covered up chips), please let me know - and can you lend me some bombers to use on the scrote who nicked it?
To be honest, my first bike about 3 years ago was a Voodoo Hoodoo. I literally upgraded everything (ended up with a factory fox 32 120mm on the front).
I remember that being far more fun and capable than the 160/150mm Meta.
I can imagine 120/130mm hard tail with good geometry will be ace! I hate this thread! 🙂
Lots of hardcore hardtail musings from me here:
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bird-zero-am-review-warning-bicycle-content
Quick summary - too much reach and slackness made it less fun than shorter and steeper (it's still a pretty long slack bike). 150mm fork feels better than 140 or 130, contrary to my original expectations - but with that long fork the bottom bracket is still very low and seat angle very steep, so it shreds berms and climbs well.
Isn't a hardcore hardtail just like a full suspension bike with a lockout rear shock? Or am i missing something?
Genuine question, not trying to annoy although I guess by no one replying ppl assumed so...
we have 2x HHT (Orange Crush) but wondered what is the difference if the same geo on a FS bike with a lock out rear shock?
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