So as the thread title really, is there any major difference between a disc equipped Gravel/Adventure bike and a flat bar hybrid that's been converted to drops? (obviously the hybrid would have to be sized to match the correct reach)
I'd obviously have to go a little smaller on a hybrid to compensate for the drop bar extra extension and run a longer post ( nothing that the Giant Anyroad doesn't seem to do)
What do you all reckon? Am I just avoiding just buying a gravel bike?
My gravel bike has give and flex in the seat stays/tt, felx in the bars and a nice geometry for general riding, it also comes in at 8.6kg, how does that compare with a hybrid?
Not overly concerned about weight really, can't imagine a decent hybrid(like those cube frames on bikediscount) are much heavier than most. I've always had steel hardtails so anything will probably be lighter 😀
I'm not criticising gravel bikes , more trying to knock one up on the cheap I've got all the parts to build either a road bike, gravel,cyclocross or some kind of weird hybrid of the three.
We have a Giant Anyroad in for servicing and it got me thinking .
make it ride it and report back 🙂 Geo will probably be key there
I know, I'm knocking up a spreadsheet as I type, as I'm thinking of trying 650b I'm worrying a little over bottom bracket height(probably needlessly as I'm going single ring)
Once I find a frame with reasonable clearances I'll get started
If it works for riding on gravel, it's a gravel bike IMO, so basically any bike that will take a decently wide tyre that allows you to ride comfortably on gravel can be a gravel bike.
Go ahead and do the mods, if nothing else it's fun. At worst, you've improved the bike, and you can be out riding it on gravel while the STW pedants argue over terminology and aesthetics of the bike. 🙂
Hybrids were marketed at people who wanted to ride on the sort of stuff we ride gravel bikes on, but usually fitted with crappy suspension forks and low end mtb controls.
The term gravel bike is simply a better name for the application IMO.
I've done just that with my daughter's unused Cube Hooper - a hybrid. There was room for a 2" tyre and mudguards, so that's what I've done.
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(It's a work in progress. I may rebuild the wheels in 650b to enable a wider tyre and I'll probably do a cable brake conversion to allow more flexibility in handlebar choice. 🙂 )
Fundamentally you can ride "gravel" type terrain on anything from an MTB to a tourer to a cross bike to a full on road bike; the only significant concern is how big a tyre you can fit: 28mm is off-roadable but clearly more is better. Just build and go; whatever the geometry turns out to be you can still get your position right and your riding style will just adapt slightly to how the bike handles.
The thing is I've been throwing together weird drop bar/flat bar, funny 'tache bar bikes together for nearly 25 years, I've no idea why (might be age) but the more I look into gravel/cross hybrid conversions the more I confuse myself. I suspect i'm just over thinking it 🙂 (not something that usually applies to me)
If i'd decided 10 years ago to do this I'd have just "done it" to paraphrase Nike 🙂 now I think i've just read to much about geometry. I've got a Singular Buzzard frame just hanging about i'm just gonna throw bits at it until it looks like a burly Singular Kite 🙂 i'll post photos and reports with both wheel sizes once I've built it (and maybe fallen off it)
Hmm, what are those bars Epicyclo?
When my Superfly isn't on CX duties it is my stand-in gravel bike, but I do hanker for some extra hand positions, currently I've just got one position which sits somewhere between the tops of a drop bar and the hoods.
Just had a quick look at my favourite best bang for the buck hybrid, the Voodoo Marasa. The men's 18" would probably be a bit long to convert to drops for me as the effective top tube is 600mm, while the women's 18" is a more favourable 575mm, but the seat tube is only 350mm and even finding a seat post for my stubby legs to set a BB to saddle of ~73cm would be a challenge.
BBB do a really long post (450mm if memory serves) looking at the Giant Anyroad in large thats in the shop for service thats got an enormous length post on it, easily 300mm out of the frame (i'll measure it when I pop in)
edit: http://www.ison-distribution.com/english/product.php?part=SPGUL09K
ison lofty post at 450mm, should be long enough 🙂
13thfloormonk
Hmm, what are those bars...?
Satori Minotaurs, aka Smooth `Drop, aka Bullbar. Also sold by One23.
PlanetX were selling Nitto bars that look identical, and at a much better price than I paid for mine. I just checked - they're sold out now. http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/HBNIB307/nitto-b307-commuter-handlebar
Their advantage was they have the right diameter to take mtb levers, so they're handy for anything being converted for gravel that uses mtb controls. They also work equally well the other way up. They're very much like the traditional bars used by our grandparents when most roads were gravel. Up for weekday commuting, down for the weekend.
Excellent, will take a look, ta.
I'm new to gravel bikes, so I don't have masses of experience to share here, but I suppose I can explain how I ended up with one. For me, I found that there was too big a gap in the garage between the XC full-suss and the road bike. I could have filled it with a hard-tail, or some sort of fully rigid bike, but I've found that I rather like the drop-bar position now and as I have a big ride coming up in the summer which will be 80% road, 20% dirt, I thought I'd give a true gravel bike a go.
I ended up with a Ridley X-Trail. I'm sure there's a hundred reasons why there are better gravel bikes out there, but I liked the riding position and feel of the bike and it's unquestionably well made and pretty light (8.5kg with a few tweaks here and there). I've also stuck with a 2x11 setup, but this was more because I found a cracking deal on this particular bike and wasn't too fussed either way.
I can't speak for others, but what I do know is that on my first proper dirt ride last night, over 30 miles I pretty much thrashed every PR I've ever done on various XC bikes over the years and found that I could, with some effort, maintain a speed on flat dirt at something around 20% quicker than I could on the XC bike. Holding 20mph+ on the canal side dirt for extended periods was quite achievable, something I've never managed before. And, damn it, it's fun to ride because you need to work for your rewards.
This bike isn't perfect (frame clearances are really tight for very big tyres) but it's a joy to ride and, clearly, capable of going much quicker than I can push it. Not a bike for everyone, but I'm very happy with my choice.
For the sake of banter let's say yes, yes they are.
I've never ridden a hybrid but I imagine they're pretty good on the road. My GT Grade isn't really. 40mm tyres and slack HA make it a bit of a pain on twisty road descents. When I jump on it after riding a normal road bike for a while, I keep suspecting the headset is binding until I remember it's always that bad.
It's better than it has any right to be off-road though.
I'd say yes, they are. Around 4 or 5 years ago I put drop bars and 105 3x9 shifters on a Bianchi hybrid that was too small for me. Apart from having issues with the front mech and MTB triple it was great.
I built it back up for my wife as a flat bar with the original components and bought a 2014 charge plug 3. The Bianchi has better tyre clearance, I ride it the same places I rode the Bianchi, they're close enough in my mind. A lot of it is marketing, a hybrid can be anything from an all out road bike with flat bars to a cheap MTB with slicks.
Aren't frames designed for drop bars a little shorter in the TT than one designed for flat bars ?
Take for example the Cotic Roadrat - they did two versons, short for drops, and longer for flat bars.
Bu if your bybrid fits with drops, and if the drops are more flared the fit might also be different that normal drops, then it should be OK.
Also look at how slack it is - gravel bikes are often slacker.
It can work yes, TTs are generally 3cm longer though on your hybrid (based on some research of mine ages ago) and hybrid frames are rarely light.
No.
A hybrid with drops would work almost as well though. It'd just be missing the word GRAVEL.
and hybrid frames are rarely light
This. Personally, I can't stand riding bikes that are substantially heavier than they need to be. It just seems to sap all of the fun out of the experience. That's not to say that you need to get into weight-weenies territory, but (for example) that Voodoo listed above is advertised at 12kg (and I bet it's even more than this when you weigh it in the shop!) which would, I think, take much of the shine off the ride.
I’ve never ridden a hybrid but I imagine they’re pretty good on the road. My GT Grade isn’t really. 40mm tyres and slack HA make it a bit of a pain on twisty road descents.
The grail is a different experience for me though just getting used to it, it is a little more sluggish than the defy I was riding it's still quick on the road despite the 40mm's was out with a mate on Monday and as he started to think I was dropping pace he pulled out from behind me and decided I was keeping a nice pace 😉
#I'm never setting the world on fire on a road bike but the tarmac pace isn't that far down for me and very worthwhile for the off road benefits I get from it.
Hybrids are only heavy because they are often cheap. There are lighter ones out there.
If you can find the right hybrid it would work. Charge pretty much do this with their Plug/Grater bikes from the looks of it.
What's a Hybrid bike? Isn't it just a road bike with flat bars? And what's the difference between a gravel bike and a CX bike? I wouldn't get too hung up on the ridiculous number of fragmented bike types...a lot of them are very similar and just variations on the same theme. It's all a marketing exercise at the end of the day.
Don't worry too much about geometry, don't worry at all about "give and flex in the seat stays/tt, felx in the bars" as it's totally overshadowed by things that you can actually feel, just chuck it together.
Best to avoid toe overlap if you might be doing singletracky type stuff, but it's all marketing and a degree or two here and there won't matter as long as the reach is right. I'm running one of those cheap Cube frames on the commuter, it's from a flat bar bike but I have drops, no toe overlap (which my previous and now dead frame had) is nice, handling is a bit barge like but that's fine for the job and if I take on a bit of touring on it. The only real problem I had was that I couldn't fit my road cranks to it as the seat stays clashed, but I've actually got a more useful range of gears (at the end of a massive trawl through my piles of spare parts and the purchase of a bigger inner ring...).
I've actually toyed with the idea of putting some suspension forks on it, and larger tyres (35s at the moment) which would make it more versatile, but I can't be arsed servicing forks on a commuter that's used through winter (and I think Lauf forks, whilst lovely, might be a bit pricy for me at the moment).
What’s a Hybrid bike? Isn’t it just a road bike with flat bars? And what’s the difference between a gravel bike and a CX bike?
Hybrid - something vague that is between a MTB HT and some kind of road bike, flat bars usually seen with a groupset you have never heard of and a stand 😉
CX - Bike legal for CX racing so fitting a number of constrains and designed to be optimised for CX races.
Gravel - Drop bar (probably), usually disc equipped which allow for wider tyres, probably set up for some kind of bag carrying, but in general terms something that will shift on tarmac when requied and handle getting off it
hybridgraveltoureradventurefrankenbikeoldskoolmtbpathtrackracercxerknobblytyredbike.
call it whatever you want, but comfort is the key.
Gravel bikes are the middle ground of Road, CX and Touring. They’re more relaxed than a full CX race bike or road bike, but more more pointy than a Touring bike. Think of that human evolution diagram - gravel bikes are in the middle 🙂
Gravel bikes are the middle ground of Road, CX and Touring. They’re more relaxed than a full CX race bike or road bike, but more more pointy than a Touring bike. Think of that human evolution diagram – gravel bikes are in the middle
Hmmm, I think gravel bikes are actually a pretty broad church, and tend to have wider tyres (nowadays) than CX or most touring bikes - the position depends on what you're using it for.
Also a gravel bike can be a touring bike, but typically set up without a rack.
It's kind of a pointless and broad term, but also kind of useful if you know what I mean.
Massive bump, but finally ordered some Nitto B307s for my Superfly CX/Gravel franken-MTB, £33 and free postage from Japan, although 30 day delivery!
Just need to find the least ugly 40 degree, 90mm, 25.4mm clamp stem on the market (SJS Cycles to the rescue I think!) and I'll end up with a few more useful hand positions, and better yet, might get a few less comments on the CX course about my stubby chopped down flat bars (instead, all comments about the gopping stem I suspect...).
Still, some fun fettling for fettling's sake while the collarbone heals...
Isn't a gravel bike just formalising what a lot of us did with our 'CX' bikes when we got them but didn't race them - eg riding off road but generally not on quite such rough stuff as we'd ride our mtbs on (though not always...) and often linking bits together by road.
At least, the gravel bikes being sold seem pretty identical to my 'CX' bikes from the last 10+ years (which I only ever raced once)
Depends how you define 'pretty identical'. Think Gravel bike BBs are typically a bit lower, wheelbases a bit longer, heat-tubes a bit taller perhaps, tyre clearances a touch larger. Basically stuff aimed at stability at higher speeds, longer distances etc.
That being said, Gravel bikes are probably a better choice for most have-a-go-hero CX types, that extra tyre clearance probably translates as extra mud clearance if you're running a traditional 33mm CX tyre, and that's no bad thing for the Scottish CX Series anyway!
How big do the tyres have to get before its no longer a gravel bike?
Ive had 2.1 xc tyres on mine. High end XC mtb tyres are really cheap.
I think hybrids are just gravel bikes without drops. Or sometimes road bikes without drops, depending.
Gravel bikes for folks that bought a CX bike, then realised they couldn't hack riding 'baws oot' in a muddy field for an hour?....
Need to find a use for all those CX bikes that never get CX'd.... 🙂
ballsofcottonwool
How big do the tyres have to get before its no longer a gravel bike?
It's a gravel bike as long as you want it to be one. 🙂
The definition by 13thfloormonk is pretty much on the ball IMO.
My prediction is that gravel bikes will evolve to take pretty wide tyres within the next couple of years.
We'll probably see the silhouette of a CX bike with the advantages of a horizontal TT, but there will be room for 2.35" tyres and mudguards as standard - plus the mounts for bike-packing stuff.
It will be the bike for taking into the mountains that many of us have wanted for a long time.
My only worry is that the designers will land us with through rear axles which prevents the use of hub gears.
With risers, and suspension, they'll be great!
I've just put suspension forks on my monster cross so does this make it a droptail or a suspendercross and is it still okay to ride it if I don't know what to call it?
Quick dickyboy, you've just come up with the only two niches left in the industry, to the patent office! 😉
Dickyboy
...and is it still okay to ride it if I don’t know what to call it?
Easy.
Call it Louise, 🙂
Missed this earlier, but my 2p:
Hybrid was originally a halfway house between MTB and road back when MTBs were just invented. But they became popular for commuting and easy going riding so they became cheap, and 'serious' riders wanted what the fast people ride so didn't buy them.
Then someone in America realised the concept was still a good one so brought them back but with better spec and drops, but they cannot be called hybrids because people will think they are commuter bikes.
They are a great idea, and the marketing push means there are now loads of options to choose from. So it's a good thing overall. The name is rubbish but then most bike category names are if you think about it. Who cares?
I put drop bars on my actual cheap hybrid commuter bike, and surprisingly the same frame that felt fast and good with a 120mm stem, 580mm flats and bar ends also feels good with a 70mm stem and drops. I love riding it on rough roads because it is so stiff, but the 32mm tyres take any roughness out. Only issue with the conversion was having to fit mini V brakes, and that was only an issue because they foul the mudguards.
Oh, and cable adjusters. No threads on the downtube bosses so I needed inline adjusters; there are also no adjusters on the road brake levers so I got some noodles with adjusters on.
My prediction is that gravel bikes will evolve to take pretty wide tyres within the next couple of years.
Possibly. Wouldn't that be a monstercross? Something like my prettyugly frankenbike here?
These 2.1s feel pretty much spot on. Could prob squeeze 2.35-4 in there but these hit a sweet spot IMO. It's not so much the geometry that makes me refer to it as just that in so many ways it reminds me of my first ATB - no nonsense, indexed shifters (were thumbies, now bar-end), rigid cromo f&f, 2" hybrid tyres, Deore kit, no aggro, comfy all day on mixed surfaced/unsurfaced routes. Carries stuff with a shrug. Definitely the bike that I pick for going a long way on roads/backroads/tracks with some offroad exploring in mind.
Wouldn’t that be a monstercross? Something like my prettyugly frankenbike here?
I was going to post something similar about my Vagabond as well. 😀 What tyres are you using on yours? (I’m still using the OEM Small Block 8s but they aren’t going to last much longer.)
They don't need t evolve to take wider tyres, there will just be another option. Tyre size makes a big difference and not always positive. I was running 45c tyres which made my bike feel closer to an MTB. Changed to 38c tyres and it felt a bit less MTB a bit more road (starring/handling). I preferred the 38c tyres.
I'm struggling to not buy this today
https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/EBPXFMSLA1/planet-x-full-monty-sl-apex-1-bike
Only thing holding me back really is Yodel and the fact i'm at work and they can only deliver to PP address. Need to work out if that's only my Primary one, or any..
was going to post something similar about my Vagabond as well. 😀 What tyres are you using on yours?
Just two:
- WTB Nano Race, 60TPI, 29x2.1 (folding) as pictured for summer. ie from gravel road to 'no road', or just dicking about wherever.
- Schwalbe Landcruiser 35c for winter road-touring/wet-weather towpaths etc with full guards. ie from tarmac to gravel
The 35c Schwalbes are so heavy-duty they weigh about the same as the Nanos.
Have yet to try the Nanos set up tubeless. Can't be naffed TBH as I change tyres frequently and the Nanos are easy to seat on these rims.
Malvern Rider
...Wouldn’t that be a monstercross? Something like my prettyugly frankenbike here?...
Yes, but optimised for gravel rather than technical riding. Monstercross is the hairy knuckled evolutionary link. It's what we have to do at the moment because the perfect gravel bike doesn't yet exist.
Luckily for us there are all those obsolete old school geometry 29er hardtails out there just begging for a gravel conversion.
Now just imagine your bike's geometry with all your contact points the same, but with a longer headtube so you don't need a stack of spacers, and a more horizontal toptube to enable in-frame luggage or easy shouldering and you have the future gravel bike.
BTW a bike that feels right can never be ugly. 🙂
kerley
They don’t need t evolve to take wider tyres, there will just be another option...
I'll disagree on that one. You don't need to fit wider tyres if you don't want them, but the ability to do so is useful. We've been through a similar process with fatbikes. It's now hard to sell a 4" only fatbike because there's times 5"+ is better, even though most of the time 4" is enough.
Similarly on the rough gravel we have in the highlands, a narrow tyre means you're continually scanning the track ahead for stuff that could damage your rims or tyres and small ruts become dangerous, whereas 2.35" rolls over them easily.
And there is also the greater security when descending on steep loose stuff where there's consequences - on a recent ride with 40mm I walked some descents because the lack of grip meant there was a likelihood of spearing off into the void, a problem I don't have with the wider tyres.
yes but if you try hard enough you can get to ride some interesting gravel roads and some singletrack to join them up maybe some road to get to/from home rather than drive
a hybrid rusts in the garage before being put on a rack to go ride a flat railtrail because that's what you do when you are on holiday
monstercross is cos' you've got all the bits somewhere and like building up bikes
simples next question
Could you let me know which bike you fitted 2.1's on please? Looking at doing something similar
Wider tyres are where it's at especially in this dry weather, fitted 2.3" geax boozelites to our tandem (rigid dawes) - going off road? Drop the pressure, on road? pump em up dont really notice any extra drag and so darn comfortable on road.
In light of the above I picked up some Vittoria tattoo 2.3" tyres for my vagabond and got them to go up tubeless first time, probably rain before I try them out now 🤔
I think Gravel and Adventure are starting to split as sub-genres.
Gravel is more non-tarmac roads where as Adventure is off road.
^ Today (for the first and hopefully penultimate time) I read the word: 'gravelventure'
The more official term is 'road plus'. Will we all be saved in the niche of times?
PS epicyclo, is this more the 'future gravel bike' you're predicting?
I'm inclined to agree- there's always going to be a spectrum, but I think you might see more clustering around the 700x40ish/650x50ish tyre size combined with a fairly roadie looking setup, built for 'going fast' on and off road, then the epicyclo style 'more or less a drop bar MTB' that is set up/marketed for all terrain exploring/bimbling.
The first type makes for exactly the sort of 'road' bike I wish I'd had when I lived in Loughborough 10 years ago- lots of field edges, little bits of woodland, all joined up by a bit too much road to make it fun on the MTB- and is probably pretty similar to how a lot of people, including me, were/are using cross bikes.
The second I'd say is more of an overlap with short travel MTB- which you choose is based on how you plan to use it. Sort of like the difference between a road bike and an audax bike?
I’m struggling to not buy this today
https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/EBPXFMSLA1/planet-x-full-monty-sl-apex-1-bike
/a>Only thing holding me back really is Yodel and the fact i’m at work and they can only deliver to PP address. Need to work out if that’s only my Primary one, or any..
That & you'll probably not see it this side of xmas - I'm still waiting for a dispatch email from them for a tyre I ordered over a week ago. Was promised yesterday that it would be sent out yesterday...
Now just imagine your bike’s geometry with all your contact points the same, but with a longer headtube so you don’t need a stack of spacers, and a more horizontal toptube to enable in-frame luggage or easy shouldering and you have the future gravel bike.
Like a Salsa Cutthroat?
I’ll disagree on that one. You don’t need to fit wider tyres if you don’t want them, but the ability to do so is useful.
Yes clearly, unless you don't want to fit wider tyres and don't like massive gaps in the frame and longer wheelbases than required etc,. I was riding a bike with 43c, then 38c and have now changed frames and gone back to 24c (all fixed gear) as for gravel I didn't really find a lot of difference other than comfort and I don't care about comfort as I only ride for 2 hours max.
I wasn't any faster overall on the 43 or 38 compared to the 24
I prefer the feel of the 24c on the road (the pickup, the steering etc,.) even though that goes against current thinking and preferences.
Epicyclo : Now just imagine your bike’s geometry with all your contact points the same, but with a longer headtube so you don’t need a stack of spacers,
Then I wouldn’t be happy on mine without a change of stem. My spacers are mostly all above the stem - I like a low front end.
Just looked at the Genesis and the Salsa - looks like I'm behind the times. The wide tyre gravel bike is already here. 🙂
I fancy a go on the Genesis - if it handles as well as the io did, I'm sold 🙂
kerley
... as for gravel I didn’t really find a lot of difference other than comfort and I don’t care about comfort as I only ride for 2 hours max....
Horses for courses - unless I'm mistaken, I think your gravel is a bit better groomed than ours. I lived in Southampton for a year when I was a lad and poked around various New Forest tracks on a lugged steel lightweight with 1⅜" (35mm) tyres. I thought they were wonderful compared to the tracks I was used to riding on in the Highlands.
A CX bike would have been perfectly adequate for that sort of stuff.
I fancy a go on the Genesis – if it handles as well as the io did, I’m sold
It really is fun. On my first ride I popped it off a speed bump and got far more air than I was expecting (or would normally get on my MTB.) I rode it around Swinley last week and it coped admirably. My first visit there and I was comfortably quick, comparing myself to other riders on the trail and later on Strava. At Gritfest a few weeks ago it was a little slower on the roads and easier gravel tracks but shone on the really broken mountain access tracks. And that is relevant - where I live is surrounded by these wide tracks over the hills, which are rather difficult on a cross bike with 32mm tyres.
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My hybrid is a rigid Salsa El Mariachi with flat high sweep 660mm bars, 2.3" tyres and a front mech. Chosen and built to be the equivalent of my 98 P7, which was good enough for anything off road by the standards of the day but I could also ride all day on road on it. IIt<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">had bar ends, but I tried them on the Salsa and the 580mm bar was just too narrow for wagon wheels. </span>
It gets used for 15-20 miles of road followed by general off road in the Valleys which is anything from fire road to rocky tracks to as technical off-road as you like. And it's brilliant on road too. Drops would make it a bit better on road, for me, and a bit worse off it.
Being a 29er though it can take a 29+ front wheel, possibly a 27.5+ rear wheel and a suspension fork if I feel like it.