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I wanted to have a look at the rules for the e-bike races to see how they are limiting the motor power. All I've found so far is that the motors are limited to 250W continuous output. Seems a bit open to interpretation to me. Is there a limit for the peak power which is probably more relevant than continuous?
1. No cheating.
2. Hang on a mo...
3. ...isn’t this ‘cheating’ by default?
4. We need a committee
Riders have to be at least 2 stone overweight, must have a medical condition, or provide evidence that they have never ridden offroad (unless they are the only rider in the world who rides their ebike with the power off).
None of the above is true 🤪
Dunno about the rules, but I'm looking forward to seeing Geex in rainbow stripes.
Riders must constantly go on about how many 'bars' they have left.
Riders must insist that they are putting the same effort in, but just going further.
They can only recharge the battery by connectging it to a Watt bike and spinning themselves 🙂
Wasn't it covered on Pinkbike a few years ago?
Looked like an even worse-for-tv version of XC racing as it made the climbs boring too.
Must have full face helmets even though most of the riding, ah sorry motoring is up hill
They called it e-gravity rather than GravitE, which tells you enough about the planning that went into it surely?
But in all honesty why are you interested in the rules? I'm assuming you're not the one person who isn't employed by WES that watches so are you planning on competing or is it just so you can give your self an aneurysm frothing about it?
All riders must exceed 1ppm (pie per mile)
But in all honesty why are you interested in the rules?
Why is anyone interested in the rules of any sport? It will let me know what I'm watching for one thing.
The only rule I've found so far is that the motor power can't exceed 250W continuous power. That's a fairly meaningless rule because all it means is that if you run it at 251W for long enough it will eventually overheat.
Are there any limits on peak power, torque, total watt hours during the race (actually, limiting the total watt hours would probably be the easiest way of keeping races fair)?
Anyway, it seems like no one knows what the rules are or if there even are any.
I hear talk of limited future for emtb's post 2020
I hear talk of limited future for emtb’s post 2020
We've got a live one here.
It's an odd one really.
If the power is properly standardised, then apart from suspension design and weight....It's all about rider skill and fitness....which makes the motor a moot point??
Perhaps utilising power should be a strategy in some way? So the rider has to conserve power or risk doing the last miles with no assist or such?
Perhaps utilising power should be a strategy in some way?
That's how I would do it. It would level the playing field for the riders somewhat but still give the manufacturers room to optimise their motors and batteries which should eventually benefit consumers.
Riders must constantly smile and/or shriek about how much fun they're having.
^^ smiling and fun are purely down to wheel size obviously.😁
Perhaps utilising power should be a strategy in some way?
I know that when a certain Verbier resident entered an Ebike enduro he rode most of the transitions with it turned off so he could ride the stages in turbo.
The only rule they had at that event was no battery swaps.
He's obvs not as thin/fast/skillful as some people on here though as he sometimes rides an ebike...
Why do people always bash on ebikes and their riders? Fear of something you dont or cant understand? Genuinely i think you should try it at least once before turning into a keyboard warrior and knocking people that ride them any and every time theres a thread about ebikes posted.
FWIW I am an ebike rider. I am 6'2". 92-93kg of very well built, very fit, man muscle 😀 Resting heart rate around 39-40bpm and 41 years of age. I would really love to see some of you lot in your biking gear. I'd be willing to bet theres a few spare tyres there and not a lot of oil paintings.
Ebikes have their place in this world. Accept it. Move on. Build a bridge.
It would appear that Ebikes also have a side effect of completely draining ones sense of humour.
Uh oh! I've had a beer (whilst watching the penultimate cx race of the season. Rectavit final round on GCN YouTube channel - cracking race, really cracking)
We/I hate emtbs's because they suck the sheer simple joy out of a basic machine composed of levers and bearings powered by the body. They've added complexity and unnecessary waste/environmental damage to a perfectly functional machine. Bike racing works just fine; Man/woman trains, gets really fit, races bike, its awesome! Adding a motor is simply daft/stupid/flippin ridiculous (pick your favourite).
Posted by a fairly slim, fit 45 yr old (16th place at 2018 XC Nat Champs btw, yeah baby! Still dining off that one although I had a serious home advantage and the field was pretty small), who went out on his singlespeed this morning for 4 hrs. Man it was slow going and I only traveled a handful of miles but that was ok as that is what the conditions dictated. Don't need a motor to add extra miles, it was just fine as it was.
Just broken my drinking and posting rule. Steve, hope you've enjoyed my rant, its been a while.
I do have a sense of humour. It's just boring listening to the exact same jokes/baiting that's been getting posted for the last 3-4 years maybe since ebikes became more mainstream 🤷 I'm not trying to single anyone out or bump my gums but if you're not interested in a topic except to make fun of people because they are interested then why bother posting in the thread? Go look for something that does genuinely interest you. I'm sure you'll feel far more fulfilled as a result.
PS I'm entered in an Enduro tomorrow in Fort Bill in the ebike category! Can't wait! I'm sure I'll be smashing past some ebike haters who'll be hating the fact they're not on ebikes as I skoosh it past them in the freezing cold. Better get a big snowboarding jacket and salopettes on seeing as I'll not be doing any work at all and the bike does everything for me 👍
if you’re not interested in a topic except to make fun of people because they are interested then why bother posting in the thread? Go look for something that does genuinely interest you.
Exactly. 👍
It would appear that Ebikes also have a side effect of completely draining ones sense of humour.
And your sense of humour includes posting a picture of a place that a small child might find amusing because its a play on a racist name.
You have me splitting my sides...
Hope that ban hammer hit you in your scrawny baws.
I love my ebike but ebike racing seems a bit weird unless the timed sections are 99% downhill where having power makes little difference.
I love my ebike but ebike racing seems a bit weird unless the timed sections are 99% downhill where having power makes little difference.
I'd like to see it with super-tough technical climbs where judicious/skilful use of the motor is required to get up it but at the same time long enough that you cant just run the entire thing in turbo mode. Or mandatory cut-outs per lap.
Ebikes have their place in this world.
Of course they do. Commuting and shopping.
Why do people always bash on ebikes and their riders?
In this case, it seems a bit ridiculous to allow them in races. It's not clear how the technical side of things will be policed. Having a 250 watt limit on sustained power seems to leave a loophole that peak power can exceed that. If you allow that in XC races, then it will turn into a contest of who can program the system to use the available battery capacity most effectively - where do you use the peak power and where do you turn off the assistance to conserve the battery? Plus, if you don't have standardized batteries, it will turn into a technology race based on who has the most money to spend on the best/lightest battery systems.
Everyone has same motor/battery so it will be used strategically to help win the race I suppose.
As long as the races are long enough that the battery doesn't last for the whole race and you would need to use it strategically that is.
In this case, it seems a bit ridiculous to allow them in races
This is the way the bike industry is heading so its about marketing.
They might introduce a weight limit (on the bike 😉🚲) to stop people cheating and hiding extra batteries in the frame
Plus, if you don’t have standardized batteries, it will turn into a technology race based on who has the most money to spend on the best/lightest battery systems.
Which will lead to better kit for customers, no?
It’s possible, just possible that e-bike races are a promotional tool to sell more e-bikes. A daft idea I know, but . . .
I think there were similar arguments about allowing variable gearing in bike races about 120 years ago.... 🙂
Having read the rules you can have any battery you like. But you have to have it for the whole race. So big battery means heavy bike
I read max continuous output of 250W as basically meaning thats the limit. It might be written like that as I think you would have a power input spike as the motor starts under load. So once it's up and running it can't exceed 250w
Rules as pedal assist to 25 km/h and a start mode with power to 6 km/h without pedaling
I assume these are the normal rules for an e bike. So at a race what they do is check your are using an unmodified commercial power train
.
it will turn into a technology race based on who has the most money to spend
Like most other motorsports then.
So at a race what they do is check your are using an unmodified commercial power train
Unless there's a homologation system requiring a specified number of identical bikes sold, all a sponsor has to do is advertise a race-spec bike for sale at a ridiculous price that nobody will ever pay, then they are free to race whatever they like. Motorsport always comes back to having lots of money and being clever enough to find loopholes in the rules.
Riders must constantly go on about how many ‘bars’ they have left.
OK but there has to be agreement that a twix only counts as one bar...
OK but there has to be agreement that a twix only counts as one bar…
Where do we stand regarding Kit-Kats?
field was pretty small
16?
Where do we stand regarding Kit-Kats?
Four fingers, foil wrapped only, no measly two finger snack bars allowed...
And a Twirl means instant Disqualification.
You can have a Mars 'duo' but you have to eat both at the same time.
Well I competed in an ebike race/Enduro today at Fort Bill. Basically everyone else on regular bikes had 3 stages. Ebikes had four. The same 3 DH plus an ebike section consisting of an uphill section followed by a short downhill back to the start. No more than 3/4 of a mile all in. It was mentioned a few comments back about it being too easy with an ebike. Utter nonsense. The climb was plenty steep and not technical at all but when that clock is running you are pushing yourself to the max at an all out sprint to the top, same as any other event. We did a practice run round the climb as no other bikes had been round just to see the lay of the land then we went for it. There was only four of us entered in the ebike category but I saw at least another half a dozen folk riding them against the regular bikers. Some riders were using their boost going downhill. I didn't find that I needed it. I didn't switch the bike off but it was in eco mode at 15% and I was just pumping the bike to keep it shifting. Didn't really notice much assistance if any in these instances. The guys from NoFuss events had a chat with us after to see what we thought as it's def something they're expanding as well. One recommendation from myself was using a short blue downhill section for riding uphill, something with a few obstacles or maybe a rock garden but keeping a less technical climbing section with a decent gradient for a sprint. I can't stress enough how hard that sprint is if it's steep enough and long enough. All in I managed about 11 runs in 2 hours 20 mins including a couple of breaks so I was happy with that. I was heading up the fire road, blitzing down and then passing the same group of riders on the road again a second time before they got to the top. Don't think they were too pleased 🤪
I can’t stress enough how hard that sprint is if it’s steep enough and long enough.
Obviously !! The bike gives you 250w the same as everyone else, the winning margin will be what you can put in yourself. The argument against e-bike racing is whats the point in everyone having a set power to start with. In the end if it's elite level riders racing the fittest will win in the end, as they always do.
The argument against e-bike racing is whats the point in everyone having a set power to start with.
That's part of it. Another concern is how it will be policed. There will inevitably be attempts at cheating. Unless the scrutineering process involves going right through all the computer code of the controllers, smart programmers will be able to cheat, and also to falsify any logs that show evidence of cheating.
On top of that, everyone will be looking for legal loopholes to find a technical advantage. The most obvious thing will be "blueprinting". Not all manufactured parts are completely to specification, there is some tolerance for manufacturing error. For example, some complete gearboxes might have just a bit more drag than others, or by carefully machining or wearing in components, it might be possible to reduce drivetrain drag enough to give an advantage of a few watts. Same will apply to motors, batteries, etc, they won't all be identical. This will give factory backed riders an advantage over privateers because they will be able to go through all the parts in the warehouse to find the best ones. This will cause budgets to explode, but won't do anything to actually make the sport better.
Everyone has same motor/battery so it will be used strategically to help win the race I suppose.
Motors now are not a vase of power source -> battery. There is a motor driver in-between and this is where there is potential for most gain. A good driver can manage peak power dynamically, torque and do some regen. There could be standardised motors (which I doubt) and batteries but the driver is the brains.
Maybe the bars should be an AA, 5 standard AA's handed out by officials at the start of the race and that's all the power you're allowed for the race.
You can use 500W going up the hill but not for very long without a leg contribution...
I think that there should be e-bike marathons (100 miles) with first half being really hilly and the second half fairly flat. So they have to make the tactical decision of whether to burn their battery up on the climbs and then have nothing left for the flat, or struggle up the climbs in eco but have assistance on the flat. Anything that makes them hurt.
So they have to make the tactical decision of whether to burn their battery up on the climbs and then have nothing left for the flat, or struggle up the climbs in eco but have assistance on the flat.
Climbing speed will always make a bigger difference than speed on the flat because you spend more time climbing. Aero drag is much more important on the flat, but that increases as the cube of speed, whereas gravity stays constant. Much more efficient to use the battery to fight gravity and then cruise the flats.
This is how the EWS plans to keep it "fair" no idea how these black boxes work but sound like a good idea.
Riders are not allowed to carry spare batteries on their person (they can carry them on their bike) .
Equipment marking stickers will be issued for the batteries (in addition to the regular bike marking
stickers Chapter 0.6.2).
Racers will need to have a Black Box kit attached to their motors. The kit will be supplied by the EWS-E.
There will be no technical restrictions on batteries etc as we believe technology needs maximum
opportunity to innovate and grow and it’s already moving at a very fast rate.
All bikes must be limited to EU regulations for e-bike/pedelec (25kmph).
Walk function allowed but only in factory settings.
@taxi25 yeah "Obviously!!" D'uh! I know that. I'm the one that's just done an ebike race two days ago! My comments were directed toward the people on page one saying that you're not doing anywork and just motoring up the hill. Did you read what I wrote? 8-9 lines down I say it's just like a normal event where you're sprinting to the top. I didn't think it would need explaining that it's the rider that makes the difference.
Wind it in haggis, this thread was a bit of fun before you showed up. Ride your e-bike and have fun, but stop being so defensive 👍
That's strange taxi, I thought it was a guy asking for information on ebike racing? When you put one exclamation mark it's kind of like raising your voice at someone. When you put two, that's pretty much shouting at them, as with your first post. How do you react when a stranger shouts at you? Do you cower away or do you stand up for yourself? Personally I'll stand up for myself every time, especially when the guy doing the shouting hasn't bothered himself to read my post properly and then tries to be a smart arse, not once but twice. But the 👍 at the end makes it ok of course 👍
I thought it was a guy asking for information on ebike racing?
Not at all. Discourse analysis shows that it was an invitation to discuss the observation that racing an e-bike is cheating!!
an invitation to discuss the observation that racing an e-bike is cheating!!
What’s to discuss? A fella entered a race for E-Bikes with an e-bike, and so complied with the rules...
As for pissing about with rules to govern the battery and motors competitors are allowed, Why bother? People buy leccy magic bikes precisely because they don't want to be limited by puny human physical performance...
If people are really keen on a level playing field for bicycle racing there's been a reasonably good solution to that for the last hundred years or so...
What’s to discuss? A fella entered a race for E-Bikes with an e-bike, and so complied with the rules…
Those are human rules, I'm talking about the moral balance of the universe being thrown off. Don't forget, Hitler didn't break the law, he just changed the law to suit his own purposes. You don't approve of Hitler, surely?
"Everyone has same motor/battery so it will be used strategically to help win the race I suppose."
Motors now are not a vase of power source -> battery. There is a motor driver in-between and this is where there is potential for most gain. A good driver can manage peak power dynamically, torque and do some regen. There could be standardised motors (which I doubt) and batteries but the driver is the brains.
Exactly. You only have to do a few group e-mtb rides to see that it's still the fittest and or/most skilled rider that is the quickest on any given trail, regardless of whether they're on the spangliest super-duper e-bike with the biggest motor or not.
It's just another format of racing, and if it gets more people out on the pedals or raises the profile of our sport then that's only a good thing in my opinion.
As new types of bike emerge isn't it inevitable that events/racing to cater for those bikes will follow? As with all events, whether you choose to participate or spectate is personal choice.
I think there's no reason not to have ebike racing (as long as it's not the FIM format which was truly embarrassing) but whatever the black boxes are they'll need to track the output of the motor. Given the way ebikes are restricted, anything else will lead to a number of innovative ways of cheating, which is fun but undesired.
The fastest/fittest riders in this category will of course generally win regardless of the ebike, and it's a good way of getting battery technology to develop. Although so is the real world of cargo ebikes etc.
it’s a good way of getting battery technology to develop.
E-bike racing won't make any difference to battery technology. They'll be using off-the-shelf batteries because there isn't enough money in the bike industry to fund serious R&D. Electric cars, laptop computers/tablets/smartphones, etc. will make a huge difference because there is serious R&D money in those industries.
Given the way ebikes are restricted, anything else will lead to a number of innovative ways of cheating, which is fun but undesired.
Problem is that the only rules I've seen say that they shouldn't provide assistance above 25 km/hr (which is easy to police) and that the motor should be limited to 250W continuous power which is meaningless.
My understanding is that 250W continuous power just means that if you run it at 251W it will eventually overheat. It doesn't say anything about how much peak power and torque it is allowed to deliver.
Is there anything to stop racers making their own motors and controllers or getting custom made ones?
My understanding is that 250W continuous power just means that if you run it at 251W it will eventually overheat. It doesn’t say anything about how much peak power and torque it is allowed to deliver.
My understanding isn't that 251W would overheat it, but that around one revolution of the motor (or cranks) the instantaneous power might vary, so you're talking the average power over a short period of time. Not, for example, 500W for half the stage, 0W for the other half.
edit - and this would be limited by the power supplied rather than by a motor only capable of putting out 250W without overheating (but the black box would check this via current/voltage going to the motor?)
this would be limited by the power supplied rather than by a motor only capable of putting out 250W without overheating (but the black box would check this via current/voltage going to the motor?)
Which means that motors would have to be stripped and circuitry examined to make sure there aren't any cleverly hidden batteries that can give a short burst of extra power while still keeping within the 250 W average current from the main battery. The supplemental battery would recharge from the main battery and just be big enough to give a boost for a minute or so when needed.
Are there limits on the number of driven wheels and/or motors?
Vorsprung durch Sparkenbikes, etc.
You only have to do a few group e-mtb rides to see that it’s still the fittest and or/most skilled rider that is the quickest on any given trail,
the winning margin will be what you can put in yourself
Not on all trails...speed on e bikes on steep fireroad or tarmac can have more to do with weight of the rider than fitness - My own anecdotal evidence: Mrs bikenski, at 60kg, is faster/uses less battery/less physical effort than Mr bikenski, at 90kg, (same bike, both in turbo). Mr bns can be easily left for dust. On non e bikes Mr bns tends to be a good 20 mins ahead of Mrs bns on the same steep (alpine) trail.
On the e bikes the trail needs to get technical before Mr bikenski can 'win the race' (although the strength and fitness does also come into play when we are both in eco mode).
An extreme example maybe, as weight differences may not be quite as significant in one competition category. However, my thoughts for e bike racing are that technical uphills (maybe time penalties for dabbing) are a must (for me that's what e bikes are all about anyway).
Those are human rules, I’m talking about the moral balance of the universe being thrown off. Don’t forget, Hitler didn’t break the law, he just changed the law to suit his own purposes. You don’t approve of Hitler, surely?
Nice, I see where you are going.
But I can't help thinking that if there was going to be a high ranking Nazi who would have been into ebikeism on the side, it's got to be Heinrich Himmler, he had the build of an ebikerist...