[Closed] any tips for a really tight crown race?

Bike shop?

hah well, haven't really needed a bike shop in years.. might feel like a failure.. but you're probably right.
so how do they do it then?

a form of slide hammer which contacts all round the race and forces it on squarly.

bit of heavy gauge pipe and a hammer will do same thing.

now have fork supported actually on steerer so no danger of damaging csu.
is it possible the CC crown is undersized? my shitty caliper won't help. could practice on an old fork actually..

Chances are its not going on square, use some polypipe tube as trail rat says over the steerer and hit it on straight

or cut it with a junior hacksaw and a 30tpi metal blate. £10 from B&Q for a cheap one, and a useful thing to have about anyway. I've found it's easiest to undo the blade, feed it throught the race, reattach and cut from the inside - more to hold onto. Or use a vice if you have one.

good tip with polypipe, found some, fits just right. still won't go.

i have a hacksaw.. any reason not to cut the reducer race? it's a big brass thing, would take pic but can't find camera..

concern is that it's structural because it's a reducer - may twist.

i guess sanding inside of race isn't likely to work as i'll never get it even.

could be the fork. there is a tool for cutting the fork to size.

Threaded bar up through the middle with pipe in place, washer on ea end and tighten up with couple nuts

If you cut the race, then force it on, it's diameter is going to be larger - depends on the headset, but might not be brilliant to do that.

Bike shops like me have a proper tool to do it - to get it straight and undamaged, even when carefully applying the biggest hammer.

it is slowly going down by hammering pipe. not really happy, might never get it off..

Ah, well that's where you need the other big expensive tool that a decent bike shop will have 🙂

i find the tube part of an adjustable axle stand works awesome as a crown race installer with a CK adaptor. you could polish steerer first just to help it a bit

I've used the aluminium tube from my pull along henry hoover before - worked a treat.

Riiiight. Well, it's possible it just needs the right tool, or more brute force. Or, it's possible that it actually doesn't fit for some reason. And the thing is, if it's the latter then applying the former can cause more problems.

So rather than just diving right into mullering it, at this point I'd be getting a second opinion from someone else who's seen the parts.

grease it first

just split it with a hacksaw

i got it. needed to shape the bottom of pipe so i can control which side i'm hitting. and hit harder, with a lump hammer this time. slow big taps, not lots of little ones.

so i'll be using CC headsets forever now i guess.. hopefully their lower cup can also take a taper fork, with a different crown race?

cheers guys ah bloody hell, stress. hate this kind of thing.
hope the cup ain't this tight 😮

Measure the race it to make sure it is 1 1/8" (if it is a neat fit / slides up and down on the upper steerer it should be fine). I'm guessing the steerer widens slightly towards the crown (not like a tapered steerer that will widen open to around 1.5"

Once checked, grease it up and slide it as far down to the crown as possible.

Hit it soundly with a 1.5 steerer tube (or similar sized tube) slid down the 1 1/8" fork steerer. The 1.5" should fit pretty much square on the 1 1/8" race. No real need for a rubber mallet or hammer.

If you hit it soundly a few times and it will press fit onto the crown.

Too late...

yeah thanks, it's well on. just needed a bigger hammer. great tip with pipe, that'd never have worked any other way. pvc is surprisingly strong and doesn't damage anything else.

For future reference...

I have found that some forks and crown races do not work together, the differences are slight but enough.

Smiff you now have a problem as you have a fork with a crown race that you have forced on... it will not come off.

I have cut pretty much all of my crown races with a hacksaw with a fine tooth blade as I have 9 sets of forks which get swapped between 5 bikes depending on my mood at the time.

I run a cut reducer crown race on my burly bike which has seen plenty of action and it works perfectly.

I do hope 'forcing it ' on doesn't come back to haunt you and I mean that as i know how important bikes and biking is to us mtbers. The reason for my post is to reassure anyone else that it is fine to cut the crown race if it doesn't go on as it should.

Roll on a dry winter...

The reason for my post is to reassure anyone else that it is fine to cut the crown race if it doesn't go on as it should.

Or perhaps it'd be better to get the crown race seat properly machined to the correct diameter, using one of the expensive but vital tools a bike shop has.

This thread cracks me up 🙂

Or perhaps it'd be better to get the crown race seat properly machined to the correct diameter, using one of the expensive but vital tools a bike shop has.

This thread cracks me up

Ben it's a cracker.. 😆

Crown race that has no split should not be spilt! It will reduce bearing life and at worst affect the steering which can be dangerous. 🙄

Get it to a BIKE SHOP with the correct tools.

timax.

Serious question, why shouldn't you split a crown race?

I split one on my CK a while back and haven't noticed any ill effects.

Crown race that has no split should not be spilt! It will reduce bearing life and at worst affect the steering which can be dangerous.

Well, it depends on the design of the headset. But one example: the headset is designed so the cup and race meet pretty tightly, often with a seal of some sort. Cut the race and spread it, and the bearing cartridge won't sit so far down on it, so there will be a gap where there shouldn't be, letting muck and water in.

It's funny so many people suggesting, with an expensive bit of precision kit, not fitting it properly but bodging it to save going to a bike shop.

hello, thread still going? i realise this reads like a masterclass in how not to solve this type of problem. a few things in my defence:

1) it seems whack it hard is fairly common solution. nor have i heard of anyone getting a crown really stuck, but no doubt it's happened..
2) being a big piece (space to put tools with fork upside down), greased, and going back out the way it came, i expect to have a good chance of getting it off. maybe even "split it off" with said dremel. carefully.
3) i've no way of knowing why CC supply it like that, i'm having trouble visualising whether splitting this kind of race (30mm steerer in 52mm i think bearing) is ok or not. and split races normally have a continuous seal, which i'd have to cut.
4) i'm tight. in the jewish sense.

TL:DR basically i should have split it yes.

sometimes a guy wants to stick a thing in a thing and go ride.

look out for a thread from me in a year or so, asking how to remove. hehe.

look out for a thread from me in a year or so, asking how to remove. hehe.

There is never a need for a claw hammer on a bicycle!

TL:DR basically i should have split it yes.

No, you really shouldn't. Some headsets have split races and they're designed for that. Some are not, and need a reasonable wallop from a proper headset press and a big hammer - or carefully with the right size bit of pipe if you really are allergic to a bike shop.

Of course you faced the crown race seat on the forks and reamed and faced the head tube?

Why am I going on about this? Well, I'm a big fan of bodging, but there are some things that should be done properly. Companies don't make all these reaming and facing and pressing tools for the fun of it, they do it because headsets are precision bearings that are under incredible stress and they need to be fitted accurately to get the best performance and maximum lifespan out of them.

ok so i did it roughly right. i call it a "self-reaming" 😉 makes me feel a bit better.
apart from first hitting it against the fork suspension and wheel, which.. sometimes works.

i sometimes wonder why instructions never give practical tips, just say things like "seat the crown properly". or "this race can/not be split".
so when you mess up, they can just say you didn't.. thanks.

Because headsets aren't really designed to be fitted by the general public - it's assumed you'll have the headset tools.

you don't think i can patent the combined crown and reamer then?

honestly i bet most bike shops would do what i did and no one's the wiser. not saying you would Ben. like the time i bent an alloy hanger and they used some fancy heat treatment to set it. like hell, they used a mole grip.

you have a feel for this stuff and get away with it, or you don't.

I used to use a Brompton seatpost for doing crown races - big, steel, and it flares at the bottom for a nice fit on the race 🙂

I really have no problem with what you did - what I was objecting to was the idea of splitting a race which isn't meant to be split.

Splitting a reducer crown race = bonkers!

There's a very good reason why it's big, chunky, solid, and hard to fit.
As for why it's hard to fit, it'll have the same ID as a normal crown race, but be much much stiffer, and the only way to make it easier to fit would have been facing the crown race... It's a tool that surprisingly few bike shops actually have.

What you should have done was push it down the steerer as far as possible, then put the headset together as normal (leaving the gap between the bottom of the crown race and the fork crown) and then just tighten the top cap really tight to force the crown race down.

This also works for pressing the headset into the frame.

yeah Pierre, thought of that, but i think i'd have stripped the bolt. i also use a Hope head doctor instead of a star nut, which btw i find brilliant 🙂

setting up a proper press with fork off the bike would have been the best way, and/or reaming the tube. headset press i use for cups may even have fitted.

good to know my instinct not to cut this race may have been right bikewhisperer. beware internet experts, well meaning but without the parts hehe 😉

Pierre, that might work with a relatively loose crown race, but with a tight one you'll just strip the top bolt or knacker the bearings. Same reason you take care when pressing the cups in - pressing on the bearings can ruin them.

really ? how, exactly would it have those effects ?

I have a bit of experience in this area 😉

Right tools for the job?? Fork crown reducing tool... crown race fitting tool,headset facing tool... I have a few 8)

But basically there are so many variants? if you split a race that is from a headset that is not designed to have a split and force it over the incorrect sized fork crown, it doesn't allow the cartridge bearing to sit properly? the bearing sits high which can leave it exposed to elements?, corrosion?and washing? which in turn decreases the life of the headset. It also reduces the designed contact area between the the two parts slackening the angle on the race compared to the angle on the bearing. The bearing race circumference is increased too! which means even if the lower cup covers the bearing? the cup could possibly make contact with the bearing race and jam? more so if the head tube has not been faced too ..and yep! I have seen this 😛 .... but .. over 25 years of fixing, fitting headsets at a professional level means, more info? would require me to ask you for your card details! 😉

but yet... you may know as much as me 😀 who knows may be even more?

Sorry for the brain fart... it's late... and I've not nearly had enough alcohol ...

gunna fix that right now 😀

oh this is good.
[url= http://chrisking.com/files/pdfs/Int20HeadsetsExplained.pdf ]Chris King[/url]

What the hell's going on with all those question marks?

basically King think (10 years ago) that headsets that don't need cups are Very Bad.

To do it properly you need one of these

[img] [/img]

Then some of this

[img] [/img]

or any old grease will do really.

Then one of these

[img] [/img]

Do NOT cut the crown race on a reducer headset.

Out of interest, (haing never had to resort to cutting a headset crown race) when you have a very tight fitting non-split race, is it the race that stretches round the ever-so-slightly-wider steerer, or is it the steerer that is compressed?

I understand that a reducer race is a different issue, but the reason I ask is that all this concern in previous posts about widths of races that weren't supplied split (and are split by the installer) is surely worth naff all when you can put a (supplied) split race cane creek 110 headset on both tighter and slacker fitting steerers and if done so correctly still have the 110 year garauntee.

I heated one up slightly over the gas ring then leaving it to cool once fitted it tightend up a treat.

Out of interest, (haing never had to resort to cutting a headset crown race) when you have a very tight fitting non-split race, is it the race that stretches round the ever-so-slightly-wider steerer, or is it the steerer that is compressed?

Well, "very tight" is subjective - if the fork is prepped with the cutting tool properly first, then it'll be tight and require a decent hit or three to get on, but not silly tight. But to answer your question, a bit of both - it's an interference fit, so the tube compresses a bit and the race expands a bit.

But it expands a lot less than a split race would do. Of course with older headsets without cartridge bearings, the race is really a bearing race, rather than a spacer - for them it's even more critical, but there are no issues with the bearing surface expanding.

Still laughing uncontrolably at Pierre-those whacky frogs eh!?!?!

I heated a stubborn one with a ciggly lighter and it popped-on a treat. Could be a pain if I ever want to get it off though.

bencooper - Member

But to answer your question, a bit of both - it's an interference fit, so the tube compresses a bit and the race expands a bit.

But it expands a lot less than a split race would do.

bencooper, surely supplying a split race encourages people, (even bike mechanics with the proper tools!) not to bother prepping the base of a fork steerer, because the split race will go on by hand or at the very worst, with a couple of rather light taps of a setting tool. I have certainly come across plenty of big brand complete bikes from £500 to £3k with unprepped steerers and crowns and split crown races.

IIRC the cane creek 110 headset 110 year garuantee is conditional on proper installation with a proper headset press, but not conditional upon the steerer/crown having been reamed/faced.

Sorry if I am being dumb here (or missed something further up).
What preparation is needed to the base of the fork steerer and crown, and why? I check for nicks, dents etc but on a new steerer this should be fine. I assume the crown doesn't matter too much (unless it is obviously compromised) as the race will make contact with the bearings, not the crown.

Have I missed something ❓

bencooper, surely supplying a split race encourages people, (even bike mechanics with the proper tools!) not to bother prepping the base of a fork steerer, because the split race will go on by hand or at the very worst, with a couple of rather light taps of a setting tool.

That's a good point. I suppose the contrary argument is that if it's a spacer for the cartridge rather than a true race it matters less. But sure, proper preparation is best.

What preparation is needed to the base of the fork steerer and crown, and why?

The diameter needs to be correct, and the seat needs to be perfectly square - i.e. the race needs to sit perfectly flat.

You mean forks are supplied not fit for use? Blimey!

Shocking, isn't it? 🙂

Why is everyone so worried about headsets, just bash em together I say, a nice mallet job done, if a race is uber tight wet and dry it until its a normal fit.

FWIW I would not take my forks to anyone armed with anything to cut them or remove material from where the race sits, adjust the replacable part in my opinion.

check your diameters with a micrometer, if you are a the upper end of the tolerance band, it will be pretty tight.

[img] http://postimage.org/image/oc9a4hlc7/ [/img]

Cheers Ben - thought I'd missed somehting more fundamental when I've been fitting them.

😆 @ smiff , "very very drunk!"

What the hell's going on with all those question marks?

Nasty habit! .. I explain it away by saying it's to give a rising inflection at the end of every sentence a bit like the Aussies?

The truth is it's from my subconsciousness, it expresses my self doubt by needing acceptance through acknowledgement of everything I say by others... or.. I was pissed and knackered!
😀