[Closed] Any advice on starting a trailbuilding/mtb club in Edinburgh.

Do a search, I think it's come up before and people have come back with some useful comments. Me, Mr Agreeable, Mugboo and various others all have experience of doing just that.

Damn. I moved away from north Edinburgh last year. Hope to move back at some point, so will keep an eye/ear out for this.

Let us know how you get on. I'd lend a hand if we were officially allowed to build some sweet ass bitchin trails!

Theres already sweet ass trails up there mate! Look on you tube under trail scotland ride corstorphine hill. Shows just a little of it.

used to ride up there in my teens but not been up recently.

[url= http://www.trailscotland.co.uk/forums/viewforum.php?f=77 ]Trail Scotland trail building forum[/url]

nice wee vid!

If ya want a tour let me know. Dont know if you can pm on this forum but sundays are good for me. Well worth exploring coz its ace!

Lots of Edinburgh riders here and also a fair few active trailbuilders... I've never managed to get in touch with the Bonaly diggers- there's some on SDH I think- but if you can get along to a glentress trailfairies session you'll most likely find some interest. Loads of us drive from Edinburgh to GT to dig oles so getting us up a local hill is not hard.

I don't really understand how the various Edinburgh rangers operate but it might be worth getting in touch with 2 of them who've been really actively pushing bikes... Drop me an email at andrew@blackjack.f9.co.uk, if you like, I don't really want to post people's details on the web but I don't think they'll mind a personal contact.

And likewise, IMBA have an Edinburgh presence believe it or not, who I can pass your details onto, think they're on here as a member as well.

TJ got a good start made on a pentlands hole-making crew a while back as well.

Aah capn mainwairing. I was on the ts scotland forum as chrismcg but got sick of folk saying I was lying,and doubting me. I now wont have a thing to do with that site.

Thanks Northwind! Ive been in touch with the rangers(david kyle and jenny hargreaves) and they both seem awrite. My main problem is me! Im not techy enough to run a website(or reven a facebook page) and Im not the best at dealing with awkward people either. I am good at building though and have plenty good ideas as well as resources which I already use. I am also in touch with IMBA and they seem very helpful as well.

Aah capn mainwairing. I was on the ts scotland forum as chrismcg but got sick of folk saying I was lying,and doubting me. I now wont have a thing to do with that site.

Don't understand that at all. I don't contribute much over there, but look at it a bit, and don't think I've ever seen a cross word or arguement

So what did they say you lying about?

Ya big fat lyer! 😆

Might take you up on the offer of a tour, ill right now so won't be for a few weeks.

Yeah no probs for a tour. Can suit it to any ability or type of riding as well. And ya get a brew upon return!

So what did they say you lying about?

Ya big fat lyer!

What were those dirty devils saying to upset you?

Got annoyed coz I laughed at a bird who had taken a tumble on the fife coastal path. Not very pc I admit and the tumble wasnt the funny bit. The fact she was having to get mountain rescue to save her was. She wasnt hurt either but must have pooped her panties. I would have. A few folk got the hump at me laffin at that. And posting pics. Shame.

That's not really giving the whole picture is it

Hi

To many of us Corstorphine hill is not a suitable place for trail building - I very much doubt you would get permission anyway. Roz Pollak is the local imba rep and she is trying to get mountianbike trails organised in various places including Corstorphine hill but IMO corstorphine hill is simply the wrong place. I can put you in touch with her if you want.

I organised some trail repair days in the pentlands and am intending to do more for next summer. This will not be trail building in the way of making new MTB trails with jumps and berms but will concentrate on repairing existing paths in an MTB friendly way.

Corstorphine hill has a very active friends group and I beleive they would be difficult to get on side for MTB trails.

I simply think corstorphine hill is the wrong place for MTB development and trail building activity there should be discouraged apart from the two walled gardens where it is tolerated.

Im not the best at dealing with awkward people either

IME, if you're going to try and make a success of it, then you'd better get good at it PDQ 😎

TJ - it might help if you explained why you think the hill is unsuitable as although I've got your opinion load and clear, the reasons behind it aren't apparent. By explaining why it'll often help others to understand or enable a solution to be found.

😎

Cheeky - fair enough. Its potential for conflict mainly and its about what is responsible. Until the LRA bikes had been banned on the hill for a decade IIRC

Its a very heavily used bit of green space.
The local people object to bikes there anyway.
There are badger setts in a few places
There is very little space to create trails
The ground is easily eroded

Specific bike trails with jumps and berms and so have the potential to create conflict. Under teh LRA we have to give way to walkers. its a very heavily used area so you will find it very hard to create a trail you can get a clear run at.

I think given the history of the hill and given the sensitivity of the hill that there is too much potential for conflict, space to create trails of the type many of us would like is very limited anyway even if permission would be possible

I think peoples energies would be far more usefully used in path repair in the pentlands and in trail building in other areas such as craigmiller where permission will be far easier to get.

At the moment there are two areas on corstorpohine hill that building jumps is tolerated. I think there is a risk of loosing that.

Yeah I dont understand why you think its unsuitable either. Theres trails there already and they just need proper finishing really. Theres also been a feasability study done and it is somdething being considered. Ive been in touch with the rangers and with roz and it all looks pretty positive really. As for the friends of corstorphine hill they are gonna have to realise its not gonna go their wee way all the time. As far as dealing with awkward people is concerned Ive a fella in mind to act as a liason in these trying matters. The long and short of it is if I get permission great - if not I just continue to do what I do. I lose nothing.And no capn thats not the full story - if anyone wants to put the other side over let them. The point remains the same.

Ok tj just read some of your points. 1 - its heavily used by bikes as well so proper trails would seperate walkers and bikes making it easier for all. 2. Ive encountered very few objections from local people and why should their objections outweigh the peoples who do want them? 3. Badger setts and sensitive areas are easily avoided - theres plenty space for all up there as well as several large underused areas. Where the jump park is is on the gtc land and has nothing to do with the council. The gtc position is that they are happy to have it there coz it gives the kids something worthwhile to do and puts the land to use. Theres plenty space on that hill for all and bikes have the same rights as others to use it.

Bigthunder - you do not have the right to build trails under right to roam.

There is IMO no chance of getting permission to build trails of the sort we would want. Maybe a family friendly "green" trail perhaps but even that is very doubtful. Or is that what you mean?

Your energies would be better placed elsewhere IMO.

In the past the ranger have spent a lot of time and effort removing illegally and stupidly built jumps.

Posts keep crossing.

Its about reality. Do you want to spend all your energies on attempting to get permissions when thre is a large well organised group who will object?

Its a small green area in a city - pressure on usage is huge anyway. there is no space to build significant trails

To put this in context I have been riding on the hill for 20 years and I would object to any attempt to make specific mountain bike trails on the hill.

Mountainbikers do not have any rights to build trails. None at all.

Be satisfied with the general access you have and with the small jump park bit. You risk losing that

1 - its heavily used by bikes as well so proper trails would seperate walkers and bikes making it easier for all.

No it wouldn't - you have no right to exclusive access.

BT, if you can get official permission from the rangers and they approve your proposed trails etc then great, i'm sure you'll get some helpers, including me. This topic comes up every 6 months on here or so (have a search).

I very much doubt anything will become official so i'd rather put my efforts into trail building that will be here to stay, not destroyed by dog walkers etc. TJ has summed up well the challenges faced.

Keep us updated though as I do hope something legit happens.

Check out what is happening at craigmiller - use your energies there. Much more space and more potential - and permission is likely

You do realise that new trails on corstorphine hill would require planning permission I think.

I find it hard to believe that someone on here would object to proper mtb trails! Foch can object all they want and I will listen but what they want is not the b all and end all of the discussion. Theres plenty space on the hill for decent trails and a feasability study has been done. I dont expect this as a right. Seperate paths are welcome to be used by all but they would be signed with thing like keep dogs on the leash and fast bikes approaching to make it safer and better for all. The jump park has nothing to do with anyone except the gtc and they are happy to have it there so how can it be lost to anyone? The simple fact is that bikes are getting ridden there,trails will be built so why not get it together and do it in a responsible manner? What does posts crossing mean?

Craigmillars funding got pulled. Ive spoken to the ranger who was organising it. Same goes for CH - no funding available.

Posts crossing - we both posted simultaneously Makes the conversation difficult to follow..

No funding? No new trails then. Put your energies into helping me get path repair in the pentlands organised please.

Please do not build on the hill. You do us all a disservice if you do. If trails are built then they are creating conflict that damages mountainbiking in Scotland.

where on earth do you think space for new trails is available on the hill? its crisscrossed with paths and its a very small area

Paul the trails and features up there now will not be getting destroyed by dog walkers. Unless they take power tools and a small labour force. And for every one they wreck then Im pretty sure another will turn up. Better built and more indestructable. For all I put in responsible trails there are plenty that dont! I hope to bring them into the fold as well - so to speak.

bigthunder - nothing you build up there is responsible unless its in the walled garden jump park bit. You do not have the right to build trails.

Its vandalism pure and simple.

No funding isnt a problem for me. I have loads of resources for trailbuilding. I disagree entirley that trail building there is doing mtb ing in scotland a disservice and to be honest find it offensive. The pentlands woulld be ok for trails but they wouldnt be mtb specific. CH is 5 mins from my doorstep so I want to build up my local spots first. All I want is to see responsible trails on CH and will continue to work towards them.

Hmm vandalism. Can see you and I will never be pals. Meet me one day and I will show ya a trail that we can ride and if you come away from that and call me a vandal I wont do another thing. Sunday am?

bigthunder - you cannot build responsible trails on the hill. You have no permission to build them it is not responsible.

Any digging on the hill is illegal. You are creating conflict and danger. Please stop

Do you understand the basis on which we have right to roam? It is a qualified right - qualified by the need to be reasonable. you have no right at all to dig trails and infact in doing so you are breaking the law.

You are doing us a huge disservice. we are trying to show we are responsible and then people like you come along and dig up nature reserves.

do you want to see bikes banned on the hill? you are making it more likely.

Yes bigthunder - vandalism - you are diggin in a nature reserve without permission.

I do not need to see your trails to know they are vandalism

Who says Ive done any digging? I havnt used a spade to dig a thing. You do need to see these to realise whats been done. Not trailbuilding but "trailoring". I understand all these issues and have no desire to make an arse of things up there but you really should ride this before calling me a vandal.

Christ TJ, you really are crap at engaging with people. The bloke's offered to take it off an internet forum and show you what he's talking about but all you can do is bang on in your absolutist way about illegality etc etc.

TJ's black-and-white-do-as-I-say-world. Man alive!

For the record, I'm not local and don't know squat about the area in question but I have been involved in this sort of thing for ages. Take it off the forum (or at least the beration), go out, meet, put faces to names and have a look at it together without a keyboard. No one ever built a trail from behind one.

You clearly do not understand the issues if you want to create new MTB trails and new trail "features" in a nature reserve.

It illegal to do so

Cheeky monkey - I know the area well. There is no legal way of building trails on the land in question. It is absolute.

Yes there is and thats what the feasability study done by pete laing is all about.

Bigthunder - Its not legal to build trails in a nature reserve without permission.

Who are you to say that? If the fella's talking to Rangers then it's for them to assess and decide, which'll have more clout in the circles that matter than your opinion on this thread. Your opinion and the comments stemming form it are just going to antagonise and irritate.

Honestly, there's so very little in this world that is ever "absolute", though I doubt you can accept that.

You've entirely missed my points regarding engagement and communication with people, which is the issue. The fact I don't know the hill is mostly irrelevant. Can't you see that trying to brow beat someone about one issue won't then convince them to engage with works elsewhere (as you asked him to become involved in earlier in this thread)?

You're not talking you're just shouting down with your internet fingers in your ears (a good trick when typing).

Is the feasability study publicly available BT? Who commissioned it?

Cheeky monkey.

it is absolute FFS. this is a nature reserve. Without permission you cannot build trails and no permissions have been granted.

I tried to engage constructively with Bigthunder by suggesting other places where he could do this sort of stuff but he is insistent on doing illegal works in a nature reserve where there is already conflict with other users.

Now we are getting somewhere. Its not illegal to rake up leaves or move a stone though is it? Break off a dead branch and throw it for your dog? The simple fact is that trails are going to happen there. The rangers can give permission I can supply resources all I want to do is get it all together so everyone benefits and not just mtbs. I take it yer still not gonna come play and see for yerself?

Yeah the feasability study is available and was commisioned by the countryside rangers. They will send ya copy but its 8mb so plenty space reqd. It takes about a week to get hold of it.

a) The fella says he's talking to the Rangers. Good oh, first rule of trailbuilding - get the land owner / managers permission.

b) Yes, I know what you're thinking, BUT HE'S SAID HE'S ALREADY BUILDING TRAILS, but he's invited you out to see what he's talking about as there's "BUILDING TRAILS" and "building trails". Take some time with that one, eh, it demands some subtle perception.

c) A feasability study has been mentioned, which I would have though you would have Googled the arse off by now and selectively quoted to high heaven.

d) If that really was your attempt to engage than might I suggest you reconsider how you go about it? Just because you say it isn't so and then he doesn't immediately falll into step you then bang on and on and on that it's ILLEGAL.

Please note I've not mentioned RLJing yet.

Ooops!

Hey ho

Whats rljing?

Red Light Jumping

TJ hates people doing anything illegal. Unless it's him. And he knows best 😉

BT - you may or may not be right, your plans may or may not be doomed. Heavenforbid in TJ's posts there might actually be the occassional gem of useful stuff. Whatever, good luck, I hope you achieve something, somewhere 😎

Personally, I always try to end up on the legit route as it makes it much less likely anything you invest time and effort in will get pulled out.

If you ever want to check out what we've done (internet or real world) see: www.singletraction.org.uk

Good luck with IMBA and Roz. On the occassions that I've met her she's seemed like one of the good ones.

Cheeky monkey - I know this site. I have a bit of a grasp of the law as it pertains to mountainbiking and land use.

to do what bigthunder is doing is not responsible as defined in the law, he does not have permission to do so, the area has alraeady got conflict between other users and mountainbikers.

bigthunder is insistent on continuing to do this.

This is the sort of activity that could easily spoil the access we now enjoy.

Tj - you have no idea what Im doing because you wont come see it. Your comments are useful and I dont mind an argument but yer not right on this one. Yet again meet me,come see what Im talking about and then see where it goes. Im going to meet the rangers and roz as well and do the same thing so come along with them if ya want. Dont know the dates but I can keep ya posted.

You are also not answering my points. Someone who has a grasp can explain whats illegal about raking leaves or moving a stone surely?

Bigthunder - I do know what you are doing -you are building trails without permission and insisting on continuing to do so.

You should not be doing this. concentrate on legal activity, help those of us who want to do things sustainably and legally.

Some kids built a not very discrete cement jump right in the middle of a walkers path on Corstorphine Hill. Is that the sort if thing you mean by trail building?

The area has a very natural feel to it and it should be left that way for walkers and families to enjoy without fear of being run down by speeding bikes.

Techyallmountain - no thats not what I mean. Thats exactly what I want to harness as well. I dont want to stop trailbuilding I want those kids out helping me to build responsibly. Have a look at the vid mentioned earlier and tell me if that seems like vandalism.

Bigthunder - this is the point you won't accept - without permission there is no responsible building of trails. Everything you build is irresponsible and illegal

Can't find the vid but I just looked at the stills on that link.

absolutly bang out of order. digging holes, concreting in stones.

[img] [/img]

I also mentioned that I walk my dog up there with my kids and I have no desire to be run over by speeding bikes either - but its happening and should now be managed in a responsible way. Well built trails with proper signage for a start. Tj I just cant be bothered with you anymore. Ive covered yer points time and again, youve been offered the chance to see for yourself,Ive approached the rangers about this etc etc. I now just dont care what you say. Shame that.

You think digging holes and concreting in stones is acceptable and responsible. 🙄

You have not covered my points

Yo do not have permission to do this
You are digging holes inthe land
you are using concrete FFS to build in features

Only got my phone the now and not techy enough to do a link but when I get a mo I will post a pic of that in context and as a finished article. Further pics will follow Im sure and I will do the same with them.

Teh context is you are digging holes and using concrete to build trail features in a nature reserve.

There is plenty of stuff to ride on the hill legally and responsibly. Digging trails like this is irresponsible, illegal and ruins the goodwill we have.

I know the rangers on corstorphine hill spend time and effort removing stuff like this.

You know nothing of the context until you come see it.

Bigthunder - using concrete and digging holes in a nature reserve is wrong. Creating new trails, causing erosion by removing the ground cover.

Thats the context.
to claim that is responsible is breathtaking.

Please please please for the sake of us all stop doing this illegal and irresponsible trail building in a very sensitive nature reserve.

jeremy - i've met you and i know you're not the quite the same as the person that appears in posts like this.

the guy has said that he's trying to speak to the rangers and he appears to be willing to meet with you and be a fairly sensible human being.

sadly you just keep arguing with him and refusing to see anything other than your side.

why not meet up? and then post your take on it all afterwards. you have nothing to lose

Winston - have you seen the pictures of what he is doing? I am sorry but digging up a nature reserve, creating new trails and concreting in blocks is outrageous

I do not need to meet up with him. Nothing he can say or do would ever lead me to believe that is in any way acceptable to do.

I extend an invitation to anybody to come ride here. Not to prove/disprove anything but just because its so good. The trails are a bit tricky to find so local knowledge is handy. I dont want to post a route but if anyone wants to ride it themselves I can send you rough directions. I stay 5mins away from the hill and have done guide rides and skill sessions. And walks when I was injured!

It seems that you're concentrating on CH because you "live 5 minutes away".

This is extremely selfish. You'd be better concentrating your efforts somewhere more suitable where it will not annoy people and damage a sensitive environment.

and here come the sanctimonious histrionics ........

pfft!

Cheeky monkey - do you really think creating new trails from scratch by clearing ground cover, digging up the ground and concreting in blocks is acceptable in a nature reserve where there is already conflict between mountainbikers and other users?

Have you seen the pictures of what he has done?

You admit you do not know the area. I do. I have ridden there for 20 years

Just to reinforce what CM is saying, MTB trails and nature reserves are not incompatible. We're just about to get a new one in Bristol which is built in a nature reserve, and parts are in SSSI to boot.

This is despite years of unsanctioned trail construction at said site, some of which crossed over into silly territory with shonky wooden bits, shady jumps etc. If it's done correctly, it can be done.

If there's a problem with unsanctioned trail construction, the land manager may choose to manage that in differing ways depending on the site, the extent of the problem and what resources they have available. It also depends to a certain extent on who you are dealing with but they may take the view that it's better to have it going on under their noses than behind their backs. They may decide they want to ruthlessly destroy everything you build, but it's not a done deal.

It's always worth talking to the people in charge of managing a site as the perception of what they are like and the reality may be miles apart. It's also worth persisting and trying to build up a relationship. The ideal scenario is that you could agree some terms of use and even get these in writing. The worst case scenario is that you hip them to the existence of a bunch of really good trails which are then decommissioned. Again I don't know the area so it's your call.

TJ - probably best you don't admit to having ridden there for 20 years if bikes were banned for a decade prior to the LRA... (both things you said in this thread) 😀

However, while the OP presents an near-altruistic picture of ranger involvement, responsible trail building and so on, it doesn't really excuse the images in the link. If the trails are in the nature reserve area, which from description they would appear to be, then the responsible trail building argument falls over completely.

TJ- Just think of all the erosion you have caused over 20 years. A bit of trail amouring , altering trails around watercourses & improving drainage can lessen the future damage and makeit more enjoyable to ride (he is seeking approval ffs ) same as you hope to acheive elsewhere.
Bit of rock in the ground- so what? Being near a major city I would imagine quarrying has happened there for thousands of years.

I'm led to believe the Craigmillar park trails have had issues over land ownership (multiple land owners)
Edinburgh Leisure are looking at developments at Birdiehouse burn
They have a survey out at the moment.
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/N6WFXSY

Northwind - Member

I've never managed to get in touch with the Bonaly diggers- there's some on SDH I think-

Alasdair - bikes weren't banned (dunno where TJ got that from)

do you really think creating new trails from scratch by clearing ground cover, digging up the ground and concreting in blocks is acceptable in a nature reserve where there is already conflict between mountainbikers and other users

You're starting to sound a bit like Michael Vandeman now.

No matter where ya want to build a trail its always going to be sensitive. Its not selfish because lots of people want this not just me and anything in the sensitive areas of the hill Im already against. The feasability report has already identified areas that are non sensitive. Also discussing this with the rangers will help to stop this. You can never stop irresponsible trails but as Ive said maybe creating a club will help to bring it all together which is the aim here. These (selective)pics show patch up work and when I get a mo I will show the finished article. No new trails were created and nothing interferes with walkers paths. I can also post pics of patched up walls and neatly cut and weeded areas that I tend and noone else does except a 74yr old man. Vandal that I am.

Mr Agreeable - there is two areas on the hill that are used for trail building with the tacit consent of the rangers that manage the land. Both full of jumps and stuff. There is also a network of paths that are legal to ride plus many rock outcrops and the like for technical challenges.

All other built MTB trails are removed routinely.

This is a small area of land - a bit more than a mile by 1/2 mile in the suburbs of a city. It is a nature reserve.

It is under pressure because of the amount of usage it gets. there has been conflict over the years because of unsanctioned trail building such as the OPs. The unsanctioned trail building is used as an example of how irresponsible the MTBers are and used to a attempt to justify an MTB ban. this is in part why MTBs were banned there for years until the LRA superceeded the ban.

Alistir - I didn't ride on the hill in the years of the ban

GW - Member

Alasdair - bikes weren't banned (dunno where TJ got that from)

there were certainly signs up saying bikes were banned for a few years in the late 90s to the LRA came into being