[Closed] Anti-cyclist bile from drivers

Why not ask them?
Does seem strange but then the road brings out aggression in so many instances.

I suspect cyclists are an easy target that get the brunt of further reaching frustrations.

Look how wound up people on here get about people parking inconsiderately. That thread reads a bit like the comments you describe.

"they jump lights" while conveniently forgetting the 'Red Light + 2' gamble that is becoming so common by people driving cars etc.

"Red means stop. It's not a vague suggestion that you may want to consider slowing down."
"Fork off you silly cant!"*
"Charming" accompanied by my best cheesy grin.

*not quite the correct spelling

I've been commenting on that Al, as has another former member of this place.
There's some complete bell ends on that that post.
Why is it, not matter what is actually being discussed in relation to cycling, that it always boils down to comments about jumping red lights, riding on the pavement, not paying road tax and being in "my" way? Its so utterly predictable.
Its like cyclists are the new scapegoats now that it is unacceptable to slate gays and blacks. (i've used those terms specifically, because those were the terms that bigots used back in the day, not because I think they're acceptable :wink:).

Car drivers have less blood flow to their brain. Higher brain functions have atrophied due to silting up and lack of use.

monksie
"they jump lights" while conveniently forgetting the 'Red Light + 2' gamble that is becoming so common by people driving cars etc.

It seems to have slipped from the collective memory that Amber means Stop too. hrmphhh

Anyway, no point in me getting frustrated about it. Zen

I'm always amused how frustrated they get waiting for cyclists at junctions and roundabouts ! They will sit there emotionless waiting for 50 cars to pass quietly wait there turn to go god forbid 1 cyclist holds them up It's all gesticulation and angry faces.

Had that from a couple of people at work, "cyclists jump lights", shouldn't be on the main A-road, hold up the traffic"

So i edited together a little video (don't normally have a camera, but recorded one weeks worth of footage, and showed them, didn't say anything just asked them them to watch the 3 mins of footage. By the end, they told me that it had given them a new perspective and that unfortunately they both then said that it had put them off ever going on a bike on the road. They both had nothing to say after i showed them a main road with three sets of traffic lights in a row, with the cyclists stopping and the car drivers around them accelerating instead of stopping to get through, the HGV drivers coming within a few feet and culminating in me going over the bonnet of car that pulled straight of a side road despite the footage clearly showing the woman looking straight at me.

There needs to be a lot less "click bait" footage of CAR vs BIKE (the cycling magazines are some of the worst for this...looking at you Road.cc) and proper educational videos and articles, how to deal with cyclists/pedestrians/horses/mopeds/motorbikes etc, needs to be part of the test (as does driving in the dark, in adverse conditions, on motorways)

First rule of arguing...
You can't argue with an idiot.

Second rule...
Facebook (and comments section of practically anything - Youtube, Daily Mail, etc) are full of idiots.

Glad someone mentioned road.cc
They seem to have turned rather tabloid recently, clickbait, lack of context in stories... etc.
And they spam the same clickbait to twitter multiple times per day.

Comments on the news sites, facebook and twitter are generally short, giving no time to make reasoned arguments so most comments are unreasonable nonsense.

The unreasonable voices are multiplied 10x, and reasonable people abandon the platform altogether.

Lots of social media appears to be pretty much unusable now.

IMO

Driving to work this morning I chose to overtake a cyclist in a 30 zone. I did so in the correct way by going over the center line to provide plenty of space and I watched the 3 cars behind me in my mirror. They all squeezed past the cyclist and did not even touch the center line in the road. There was nothing coming the other way and to me it looked far too close.

So, I wonder why they chose to overtake too close after seeing me overtake properly? Is it poor education or hatred?

'Cyclists' (anyone seen opersting a bicycle in the UK/Aus/US) are the new [s]immigrants[/s] [s]irish[/s] [s]gypsies[/s] [s]perverts[/s]

Enjoy yr minority status. Not everyone is so [s]despised[/s]under-valued. Just watch out for motorists making [s]close[/s] illegal (not to mention deadly) passes and try and enjoy the ride.

Was on the A417 yesterday (driving) yesterday and again saw a car-driver pull their vehicle up sharp a few feet behind a (moving) cyclist's rear-wheel. The driver 'waited' all of 5 seconds then accelerated to squeeze past without even crossing the broken white line. I see this so often it has actually put me off cycling on many roads, at least in the daytime. Those enamoured with 'anti-cyclist' sentiment will see this as a 'win'. Cars, horses and tractors (mostly) get overtaken when it's safe to do so. Bicycles not so much. The presence of someone on a bicycle in the (UK/Aus/US) transport ecosystem seems somehow to test the humanity of a driver? Or whether or not the driver considers a cyclist to be 'human'? Either way...

Is it poor education or hatred?

Edit: Both. And hive-mind/media-fed. Clicks/views etc are genuinely profitable and who doesn't love a [s]righteous[/s] self-righteous hate-fest. Problem is these squeaky wheels get the most oil. Empty ships etc , so we are left with the impression that the country is choc full of blathering entitled morons waiting to smack you one. Not true. But there is a growing trend, of that I'm sure.

Just to add a counter voice, IME it's actually got a lot better on the roads recently, particularly regarding passing distance. I don't think the WMP close passing initiative has been rolled out in our area yet (our police force did attend a training day on it, so hopefully it will), but not only are we right next to the West Midlands police area, every driver I've reported to the police for a close pass has come from that area. I'm assuming that if nothing else the publicity from such things has helped.

[quote=bigyinn ]I've been commenting on that Al, as has another former member of this place.

Me too, and I've seen comments from another current member here. I've tried hard to stay rational and calm - currently have an ongoing conversation with a taxi driver who doesn't appear to be totally anti cyclists, certainly she's not coming out with the sort of bile and irrational stuff many on there are, so I reckon it's worth trying to educate her.

But this:

[quote=andytherocketeer ]Facebook (and comments section of practically anything - Youtube, Daily Mail, etc) are full of idiots.

It's worth bearing in mind that those making stupid comments aren't at all representative. Most aren't worth arguing with as you'll never change their minds.

Too many angry idiots in the UK (England especially). That is the main problem. They rant and rave about everything, not just cyclists.

Best not to give them any of your time, and if you come across one in the wild, just blow them a kiss and get on with your day. 😆

Thanks all - good to be reminded of the perspective that it's just the idiot drivers that post up.

A friend recently got an awareness course for something and said it was v informative. She also confessed to almost hitting a cyclist for not seeing them, & that being her fault. But when I told her I'd been knocked off recently she asked "were you wearing a helmet?" 😐

My experience of cycling in traffic is gradually improving too.

Me too, and I've seen comments from another current member here

The Edinburgh one?

I'm always amused how frustrated they get waiting for cyclists at junctions and roundabouts ! They will sit there emotionless waiting for 50 cars to pass quietly wait there turn to go god forbid 1 cyclist holds them up It's all gesticulation and angry faces.

^ This is a genuinely interesting phenomenon that is frustrating in itself. I have a half-formed theory apart from (and in addition to) the accepted 'out-group/non-payer of (sic) 'road-tax' effect. My theory is that cyclists are so visibly *human* in an ecosystem (roads network) that has latterly become so inhuman. Waiting for a car is to a degree an automated process. You are a metal box waiting for an automated metal box to pass. You are in a queue. It is 'automated'. You are all the same. And then there, all of a sudden, is this vulnerable, fleshy 'human'. Not a box. Not 'automated'. What an affront to the system! It also puts the burden of 'extra' safety-awareness on the driver.

It also puts the burden of 'extra' safety-awareness on the driver.

It also puts the burden of 'extra' safety-awareness on the driver.
any evidence for this outrageous statement ?

First of all I should have typed burden as 'burden'. As for evidence? I think it's self-evident. I may be wrong, just throwing it out there 8)

see a lot of this recently (the posts) and being on the A9 Road Watch site makes it worse.

I really despair and don't know what all the bile is about, was wondering the other day why it had come to this about one particular 'group' for want of a better word getting reviled by majority. Genuinely don't see what all the angst is about Al.

Surely motorists get angry when they see cyclists jumping red lights because they, the motorists, are forced to conform to the law and the cyclists are not? It hacks me off as well; I've even told a light-jumping cyclist he was an embarrassment to other cyclists. Bad behaviour by other cyclists is one reason why I don't ride with a club; there's always one who antagonises other road users including pedestrians and horse riders.

[quote=globalti ]Surely motorists get angry when they see cyclists jumping red lights because they, the motorists, are forced to conform to the law and the cyclists are not?

You think they're justified then? You think motorists are forced to conform to the law? Because almost every day I see several motorists jumping red lights. Pavement cycling, that other favourite bugbear of the irrational motorist - every day without fail I see several examples of motorists who have broken exactly the same law. Meanwhile motorists routinely break the speed limit, and whatever publicity there might be, in reality there is very little enforcement of the mobile phone laws and motorists also routinely break that one. What's more, this whole thread came about from Edinburgh Police adopting the WMP close passing initiative where they're stopping drivers breaking the law - and all those angry comments are from drivers who think it's unfair that they are being stopped for breaking the law!

Motorists forced to conform to the law? Don't make me laugh. I'd put money on drivers breaking the law far more frequently than cyclists do - what's more, when drivers break the law in the ways I've mentioned they're actually causing a danger to other road users.

I'm curious - have you ever stopped a driver and told them they're an embarrassment to other drivers?

I'm curious - have you ever stopped a driver and told them they're an embarrassment to other drivers?

+1

If you're gonna police the streets you gotta be fair about it globalti.

I'm curious - have you ever stopped a driver and told them they're an embarrassment to other drivers?

Bingo. This is what I mean. Somehow cyclists are seen as 'lesser' road-users and expected to justify their right to be on the roads by being exemplary in a way that drivers never are. An idiot driver is seen as an idiot*. An idiot cyclist is somehow seen as 'cyclists'.

There are some exceptions, ie 'white van men', 'BMW drivers' etc. But these individuals are still not assumed to speak and act for all drivers in the way that anyone on a bicycle is assumed to speak and act for all cyclists.

globalti - Member
Bad behaviour by other cyclists is one reason why I don't ride with a club

Sounds like you need a better club. The one I ride with happy dispenses massive amounts of abuse if it's own members start being idiots.

West Midlands police did say that the people posting comments similar to those on the Facebook thread were exactly the ones they wanted to re-educate.

Nothing will improve. If anything, someone stopped by the police for this will develop an even greater disregard of cyclists now they've had their time wasted.

I've been battering away at the same facebook stories, pretty depressing. What struck me as weird is I saw someone I know who lives in London piping up, he's 500 miles away. And rides a motorbike so why are we enemies?

The Evening News thread's exactly what I expected but I'm pretty amazed by the Police Scotland one- so many people happily saying "I think it's OK to drive dangerously and break the highway code, because cyclists ride on the pavement", on the Police's facebook. Wouldn't it be lovely to get some direct police responses to those posts, or even better some knocks on doors "Mr Facey McFacebook? We're just here to discuss driving standards, won't take long..." but it'll never happen

Also- cyclists, stop saying "there's no such thing as road tax", it convinces nobody, misses the actual points, and just makes you look like a smartarse.

Surely motorists get angry when they see cyclists jumping red lights because they, the motorists, are forced to conform to the law and the cyclists are not? It hacks me off as well;

Are they? I see little evidence of motorists being forced to conform to the law. I seem to recall various studies that have shown that cyclists are actually less likely to break the law than motorists, and once you remember that speeding is against the law, this is very easy to believe.

Also- cyclists, stop saying "there's no such thing as road tax", it convinces nobody, misses the actual points, and just makes you look like a smartarse.

And sadly, there is effectively a hypothecated road tax now, so it's factually incorrect.

To a small point there is some justification in some complaints. Jumping lights being the one that's obvious . Suggesting car drivers do it is irrelevant. Different topic. Red light jumpers are complete F wits and need their bikes or balls smashing. No reason. Its bad enough, but sort of understandable, to get off and push the bike over the lights like a pedestrian. That's sort of having your cake and eating it.
I do actually think that's close passing is getting better but sadly just one that's too close is enough to kill you. There will never be an end to stupid driving just as there will never be an end to moronic cycling but I reckon that things could be better. What would make a difference I reckon is a) someone really famous and dear to the nation being hit or "better still " killed. That would hit the papers and whilst it wouldn't solve the problem it would wake many people up to their driving. b) Some decent telly publicity from big names. Shocking adverts with really good advice from popular people, especially those from crap but popular telly.
The CUK promotion f the close pass initiative is in my view pointless. The Police won't or cannot slap 4 figure fines on people and anyway the distances are useless. Being passed at under 2 metres at 60 mph by a lorry is lethal. Finally I feel that, as usual, all the efforts are being sent on keeping urbans commuters safe. Not good value I think because a) that's hardly recreational cycling which apparently is in the need of promotion and b) I am sick of London being the focus for everything and give not a dogs poo what happens there.
Cyclists don't help them selves sadly be it breaking the law or just stupid behaviour be it riding like a dimwit. Until we are perfect we can't expect everyone to be on our side.

West Midlands police did say that the people posting comments similar to those on the Facebook thread were exactly the ones they wanted to re-educate.

Nothing will improve. If anything, someone stopped by the police for this will develop an even greater disregard of cyclists now they've had their time wasted.

Always possible they'll still blame cyclists for this but if their names are being put in the system hopefully a few repeats will endanger their driving

no idea if standards are generally improving, I reckon I may have noticed a slight increase in decent passing distances from some, so the closepass thing is getting around a bit, but only the guys who gave you a couple of feet previously are now giving you a couple more, the minority unthinking idiots and utter arseholes who think it's fine to brush your elbow as they pass are still around.

And still get people looking but not seeing at junctions, or - a pet personal peeve - doing a sort of half an overtake before joining a queue and effectively boxing you in behind the line of cars they just joined, when they could have just as easily stayed behind.

Apparently, it’s due to isolation and dehumanising other road users.

Mentally cars become an extension of their driver’s homes, it's their space, it belongs to them, they feel like a private space - you see this manifest in the way some people will sit at the lights picking their nose like they're not surrounded by glass.

So, irritations are felt many times more strongly than if they were out of their cars, someone holding them up for 5 seconds, or worse "pushing in" as they consider any other road user who isn't cursed to queue - so the reaction is like, someone you don't know walking into your house and standing in front of the TV when EastEnders is on.

Couple that with the way we've dehumanised and pigeonholed each other - we're not people on the roads, we're drivers, cyclists, bikers, van drivers, taxis, truck drivers and others and most groups have issues with others by default and it’s always a collective – Taxi Drivers are all nutters, Cyclists have weekly meeting to ensure they hold up the most amount of traffic, etc - the fact that all these things are real people, with loved ones, who might be nice gets lost between the ears.

Add the sense of invulnerability - cyclists, tend to be male, tend to be fairly fit, tend to be 20s to 40s - massive generalisation yes, but I'd bet an 'average' commuting cyclist would fit that - in other words, 'men of fighting age' - out and about in the 'real world' a 55 year old 5' 3" Women wouldn't go up to a 25 year old 5' 10" Man, call him a ****er and then try to hit him, it would only be his sense of decency and maybe fear of prosecution that would stop him giving her a hoof in the slats, but hiding behind a door and 3mm of easy to safety glass drivers feel invulnerable - you'd be amazed how quickly they change character if you break the barriers down by talking to them, years ago an older chap missed me by a tiny distance and then gave me the finger like it was my fault and then stopped in traffic, I opened his door and asked him why and he screamed, like really screamed, it seems threating me with a tonne and a half of metal and plastic was okay, but a bigger, younger, fitter man opening his door to ask why was so shocking he nearly cried.

globalti - Member
Bad behaviour by other cyclists is one reason why I don't ride with a club

+1. I see riders from 3-4 local clubs riding like absolute tw*ts every weekend - there is no way I want to be associated with that.

this is a community page near where I live. Constant bile against cyclists. Apparently we are the cause of so many issues. Suggest that you need to reduce the number of cars to improve the traffic situation and so start up the usual comments.

Bez off here writes some good blogs as do other people. There is a great twitter feed about brick throwing too.

https://twitter.com/brick_safety?lang=en

These drivers get so wound up about something that is at worst an annoyance

They do it to other annoyances too, like caravans. Seriously, I'm going about 11% slower than you, how much of a big deal is that? But no, once it's in the collective mindset, and it's normalised, then it's the way of the world.

How many of you lot are now going to comment on this post complaining about caravanners? Go on, I dare you.

old guy hogging the middle lane on the M8 couple of days ago pulling a caravan

I've even told a light-jumping cyclist he was an embarrassment to other cyclists

What about shoe wearers who do bad things, why aren't, you as a fellow shoe wearer, outraged at their behaviour?

Do you also tell people who speed/drink drive/use mobiles etc. that they're an embarrassment to other drivers?

It's bizarre how cyclists get lumped together as some kind of collective group where the actions of an individual are used to justify an attitude towards others.

Point being that his choice of transport does not magically make him a representative of 'cyclists', or in any way related to the other cyclists, as the driver in front of you is a representative of 'other drivers'.

eg: this, I know it was in jest but it's a great example of the kind of stuff that does get trotted out for real

old guy hogging the middle lane on the M8 couple of days ago pulling a caravan

I'm not sure, are we supposed to be angry at:

- old guys
- middle lane hoggers
- caravaners
- drivers in general?
- that particular person

aracer - Member

Me too, and I've seen comments from another current member here.

It's almost like we're a concentration of internet-obsessed arguelympians isn't it 😆

blame molgrips for daring someone too.

old guy hogging the middle lane on the M8 couple of days ago pulling a caravan

Was it Geoff Capes?

Was it Geoff Capes?

😆

no, Magnús Ver Magnússon

It's bizarre how cyclists get lumped together as some kind of collective group where the actions of an individual are used to justify an attitude towards others.

Not really, Bird watchers, Train Spotters etc. all have stereotypes...because it's something of a self identity we choose... whereas driving is a "default"

Now I'm no expert on trainspotting or birdwatching but I'm sure they have different "disciplines" as well and the bloke (was that a sexist stereotype for trainspotters) who only watches steam trains hat4es being lumped with the ones who tick off diesel numbers... and the person who only has an interest in marsh birds or raptors finds it illogical they are classed with people who look at garden birds....

The thing is a whole load of people who have chosen to cycle do ride on pavements/run lights etc. EVERY DAY.... It doesn't take many Boris Johnson's to commit multiple offences every single day for us all to get lumped with the same shitty stick....

[i]drivers[/i] = pretty much everyone over the age of 17.
And everyone knows this from school -

[img] [/img]

That's a lot of stupid people driving cars who also have access to the comments section on Facebook.

It makes me laugh when motorists rant about cyclists breaking the rules. So who is likely to come off worse in the event of an accident? The cyclist EVERY SINGLE TIME, regardless of whose fault it was.
So why the vitriol?
Usually they like to counter that particular point by parping on about insurance and damage to their car caused by the cyclist and who will pay to put it right?
I can't say I've had much damage caused to my cars by bikes over the years though, other motorists though? Oh yes!

[quote=mattsccm ]To a small point there is some justification in some complaints. Jumping lights being the one that's obvious . Suggesting car drivers do it is irrelevant. Different topic.

Maybe but it's a bit (null), because you pick any group of people and there will be some doing something wrong or breaking the law - basically because there are dicks and they have varied interests. Though pointing out that drivers also do it isn't at all irrelevant in the context - because the comments about cyclists jumping red lights etc. in this case are in response to a report on drivers being stopped for behaving badly, and the comments typically start "but what about the cyclists", so the drivers are already making the comparison.

Red light jumpers are complete F wits and need their bikes or balls smashing. No reason.

The same applies to drivers who jump red lights? Because following my comment earlier:

[quote=aracer ]almost every day I see several motorists jumping red lights.

...having just been out, my quick survey suggests that 100% of the drivers in a position to do so jump red lights.

Cyclists don't help them selves sadly be it breaking the law or just stupid behaviour be it riding like a dimwit. Until we are perfect we can't expect everyone to be on our side.

So never then. But in a similar way to earlier,why is it you're not saying "drivers don't help them selves sadly be it breaking the law or just stupid behaviour be it driving like a dimwit. Until they are perfect they can't expect everyone to be on their side."?

bigyinn - Member
It makes me laugh when motorists rant about cyclists breaking the rules. So who is likely to come off worse in the event of an accident? The cyclist EVERY SINGLE TIME, regardless of whose fault it was.
So why the vitriol?

Probably because accidents happen comparatively rarely, but interactions happen all the time, and many car-cycle interactions feel inconvenient to the drivers. So in the driver's mind, a thousand little inconveniences build up into a disdain for cyclists and few motorists ever have to face up to the damage that a single car-cycle collision will do to a cyclist.

amedias - Member

I've even told a light-jumping cyclist he was an embarrassment to other cyclists

What about shoe wearers who do bad things, why aren't, you as a fellow shoe wearer, outraged at their behaviour?

Do you also tell people who speed/drink drive/use mobiles etc. that they're an embarrassment to other drivers?

It's bizarre how cyclists get lumped together as some kind of collective group where the actions of an individual are used to justify an attitude towards others.

Point being that his choice of transport does not magically make him a representative of 'cyclists', or in any way related to the other cyclists, as the driver in front of you is a representative of 'other drivers'.

eg: this, I know it was in jest but it's a great example of the kind of stuff that does get trotted out for real

When people see a shoe-wearer or a driver doing something bad, they think of it as just a person doing something bad.

When people see a cyclist doing something bad, they think "F*ing cyclists"
Or words to that effect 😉

Not saying that this is in any way good but it's a fact that this happens and cyclists [i]do[/i] get lumped together as some kind of collective group, therefore yes I will get annoyed at other cyclists jumping lights etc because like it or not this is will affect me directly - drivers get annoyed at me (cycling correctly & safely) because they see cyclists in general as dangerous annoying rule breakers.

In a similar way, as a member of an ethnic minority group I am hyper aware that my behaviour will be taken as representative of the group. (I don't really see this as racism as such, more human nature. Subconscious racism? There's another whole can of worms!)

When people see a shoe-wearer or a driver doing something bad, they think of it as just a person doing something bad.

When people see a cyclist doing something bad, they think "F*ing cyclists"
Or words to that effect

That's exactly the effect I find curious!

Similarly how it applies to this:

The thing is a whole load of people who have chosen to cycle do ride on pavements/run lights etc. EVERY DAY.... It doesn't take many Boris Johnson's to commit multiple offences every single day for us all to get lumped with the same shitty stick....

And how 'drivers' don't get hit with the same shitty stick for the transgressions of other drivers who have chosen to speed/drink drive/use mobile/$other_dangerous_thing.

I fully understand it happens, and I understand some of the psychology behind it, but I still find it curious, and I challenge it when I experience people* doing it, if only to try and make them think.

*myself too

Even if i could understand the stereotyping, I still can't understand the casual disregard for others peoples safety, or in some cases lives.

That recent case where a driver killed someone in a hit and run and claimed she thought the thing she hit was a sack of potatoes falling from the sky was horrendous.

I can't think of any other situation where otherwise normal people act like that, except in a car.

Interestingly this has just appeared on local news website

[url= http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/15247512.VIDEO__Dashcam_footage_helps_nab_Thamesdown_Drive_red_light_runner/ ]Police requesting dashcam footage[/url]

I would genuinely be interested if I could submit a weeks worth of my commuting footage, which would be worth about 3 prosecutions daily. Good to see this being taken seriously by the local police force though.

It's not just bile against cyclists either. I had a guy ranting at me in the car behind as I drove at 30 through a 30 zone...crazy.

I'm not sure, are we supposed to be angry at:

- old guys
- middle lane hoggers
- caravaners
- drivers in general?
- that particular person

That particular person, for being a middle lane hog.
The rest of the items on that list are just fine.

Comments on the news sites, facebook and twitter are generally short, giving no time to make reasoned arguments so most comments are unreasonable nonsense.

Mostly this ^^.

The counter arguments - ones about "road tax doesn't actually pay for the roads, it goes to the Treasury...blah blah" and "well I'm riding in the middle of the lane because I specifically want to stop you squeezing through this gap and it's called primary position and the Highway Code actually recommends this...blah blah" take a long time to explain. They are reasoned responses and no-one who's just yelled "****ING CYCLIST, PAY YER ROAD TAX!" is in any sort of mood to hear a reasoned response never mind go "gosh do you know what, you're absolutely right, terribly sorry old chap, have a lovely day and I'll never shout that again"

Trying to explain why I (occasionally) jump red lights - well it gets me away from the F1 starting grid behind me, it gives me just that extra few seconds of safety to get up to speed and, astonishingly, I'm actually more out of your way therefore making it easier for you, the motorist, it's almost me giving you special extra consideration, while making me safer! Win all round.

But that takes too long to explain and is too subtle for the average motorist to understand.

The answer to all of this is proper infrastructure. Where that is supplied, there is no need to jump lights, ride in the middle of the lane, slow drivers down. Everyone can be happy. One local newspaper actually ran a surprisingly balanced piece arguing for safe segregated infrastructure saying that it gives the motorist his/her own lane back. No need for any extra care with safe overtaking or getting angry watching cyclists filter because they're out of your way!
The responses were mostly "make cyclists pay for it".

🙁

I never get the rlj for safety thing.

If riding in traffic was that dangerous you wouldn't do it.

cynic-al - Member
I never get the rlj for safety thing.

I've never needed to, nor felt the need to.

Dedicated infrastructure sounds like a fix but isn't. It's better that drivers learn to share the existing roads or they'll not know what to do when they suddenly encounter a cyclist somewhere there is no cycle track. Familiarity and understanding is what's needed.

So the Dutch have it all wrong, scotroutes?

I never get the rlj for safety thing.

TJ defines crossing the line by a few feet then stopping as RLJing. That does often make sense. That's why they invented ASLs. Before they were common I would always go infront of the traffic so they could all see me, and THEN wait.

He doesn't mean sailing clear through a junction on red which is what most people mean I think.

So the Dutch have it all wrong, scotroutes?

He's right. Whilst infrastructure is convenient, it's not *the solution* to drivers hating cyclists and treating us with contempt.

I think that the Netherlands has both good infrastructure and positive attitudes. If we had the infrastructure, we'd be ghettoised and drivers would hate us all the more when we weren't on it; whenever we wanted to get somewhere or do some training when there's a footpath next to us with a hundred driveways, several grannies and a round blue sign.

I almost get that molgrips, and agree that we should always be allowed on roads.

Whilst infrastructure is convenient, it's not *the solution* to drivers hating cyclists and treating us with contempt.

Agreed.

But it can be the solution to incompetent numpties half asleep at the wheel of a couple of tons of steel mixing it up close and personal with pedestrians and riders.

Oh yes - I like it in places, and I use it too - in places. But the best solution imo is cyclist provision on normal roads.

cynic-al - Member

I never get the rlj for safety thing.

It's recognised and built into the law in some places (US "right turn on red", French cyclist signing), people seem fairly convinced of the benefits. It makes sense to me, red lights certainly see enough pointless accidents, and keeping traffic flowing reduces frustration.

My ten penith,

Me: Mountain biker who also rides 10 miles at lunch on roads with road bike near work.

Bikes on road/ bikes on road two abreast. normal guy riding alone. I slow down when I see him. Wait until a big enough gap appears and when not on a corner and then pass. Two bikes riding two abreast /two idiots riding two abreast and blatantly holding up the traffic.
Same process as above. I'm patient and even though some riders act like a holes I'm not going to serve a manslaughter charge for a couple of seconds or a few hundred yards of tarmac.

The drivers I hate are the ones that see a bike or bikes and then see you coming and then decide that they have the right to nearly run you clean off the road in your car and then somehow think it's the bikers fault because they are causing an obstruction !! Total twunts

US "right turn on red"

That's for cars as well.

Two bikes riding two abreast /two idiots riding two abreast and blatantly holding up the traffic.

But isnt it safer?
People protecting themselves, their space on the road and their lives are dicks?

two [s]idiots[/s][b]people[/b] riding two abreast and [s]blatantly holding up the[/s]being traffic taking up minimal road space for safe overtaking.

FTFY

Cloud nine,

Not all are dicks mate, but you do see a few,

I ride two abreast sometimes at lunch too, always pull in behind or in front when cars approach. I have no issue with two abreast I still wait but for a lot of drivers it's red rags to a bull,
My point is that some car drivers will not only risk the lives of riders acting like dicks or not and Will deliberately run you off the road as they see it as there god given right to have your side of road if there's an obstruction on there's ! That's my point buddy
Chill

molgrips - Member

That's for cars as well.

Yep, and for the same reasons.

Northwind i don't think crazys comment were just about left turns.

Never seen an accident at a red light.

It really is bizarre some of the behaviour you come across riding a bicycle on the road. I got beeped at (twice in 5 seconds) commuting home tonight by a learner (vehicle at least).. I can only assume this was because I dared to ride a whole metre from the curb as it was blowing a hooly and it meant I couldn't hold as straight a line as I would have liked.

The thing I really don't get is that me riding to work is 1 less car on th road as it's sat on my drive! I'm doing them a bloody favour!

In addition to the beeping learner I also had a close pass followed immediately by a sharp braking manoeuvre as the tit stopped to let van coming the other way turn right across the front of them. Nearly went straight thru the rear windy. Imagine overtaking another car in your car and then just slamming the brakes on? Wouldn't happen.

Cyclists don't help them selves sadly be it breaking the law or just stupid behaviour be it riding like a dimwit. Until we are perfect we can't expect everyone to be on our side.

No. My right to be treated with respect when I'm cycling on the road is not dependent on the behaviour of other cyclists.

Have you ever looked at the facts about road incidents? I looked up the Scottish figures on incidents caused by ignoring traffic lights a few years ago. 95% of incidents are caused by motorists (see the Transport Scotland website for the data).
The CTC published analysis on incidents involving pedestrians. 98% of all pedestrian death and injury in the UK is caused by motorists.
Motorists are responsible for about 4 or 5 road deaths every day in the UK. Cycling accounts for one or two deaths per annum.

When I look at those figures, I don't feel any obligation to collectively apologise for the behaviour of "cyclists". People will argue about the relative population size of cyclists and motorists, and miles travelled, but in absolute terms, it is pretty obvious who is causing the damage on UK roads.

So why not stop apologising, challenge the people complaining about cyclists, and ask them why motorists aren't cleaning up their act?

One local newspaper actually ran [s]a surprisingly[/s] an unsurprisingly [s]balanced[/s] bigoted piece arguing for safe segregated infrastructure saying that it [b]gives the motorist his/her (sic) own lane back[/b].

FTFY

Not really, Bird watchers, Train Spotters etc. all have stereotypes...because it's something of a self identity we choose... whereas driving is a "default"

^ I find this to be a very curious assertion. Our surfaced road network is here largely by the efforts of cyclists. Cyclists (road-users on bicycles) never went away. Cars are allowed by permit.

Motorists, cyclists, motorcyclists, horse-riders, tractor-drivers etc etc are all r[b]oad-users[/b]. There is no 'default'. There is, I own, a sense of 'entitlement by numbers', or 'might is right'. So motorists (car-drivers) are increasingly elbowing out the 'competition', even so far as to persuade some cyclists (bicycle-riders) that they somehow 'chose' their own minority status and are somehow deserving of a negative stereotype.

Also, I do not 'choose a self-identity' by choosing to either cycle or drive on any particular day. I am simply choosing a mode of transport. The 'identity' is being applied by others. I don't even wear funky leotards.

Cars may be the new colonists, but I refuse to be the hated 'injun' simply on account of colonial propaganda. We are all road-users and humans.

Cyclists don't help them selves sadly be it breaking the law or just stupid behaviour be it riding like a dimwit. Until we are perfect we can't expect everyone to be on our side.

That's getting perilously close to the "earning respect" bollocks that gets trotted out regularly. You really honestly think it every single "cyclist" - from the kid on the BMX to the MTBer riding a short stretch of road in between trails to the road club out for a Sunday spin to the commuter on his Brompton... - behaved absolutely impeccably, rode completely totally within the law and doffed their cap to every passing motorist that "drivers" (as a collective like "cyclists") would suddenly say Oh look at all the perfect cyclists, I will now direct all my anger and frustration at someone else! ? Really?

Never going to happen and anyone saying about "earn respect" or "gives a bad name to cyclists" or similar needs to be challenged and made to realise that it's an extremely dangerous attitude to have.

Cyclists don't help them selves sadly be it breaking the law or just stupid behaviour be it riding like a dimwit. Until we are perfect we can't expect everyone to be on our side.

Sarcasm, surely? Just like the 'Polish fellows need to earn respect if they want to come into our country'.

Somehow, many drivers are having an idea that the roads are 'their country' and anyone on the road yet not in a car is an 'immigrant' (read: 'imposter)', therefore liable to be treated as a homogenous 'group' rather than an individual. In this, anyone deemed in this 'group' is held not only to higher standards than the majority (motorists) - but also in lower regard - simply on account of being regarded as an outsider/minority/'immigrant'.

It's a shitty attitude, and a prevalent one. Humour will save us. That, and 'be excellent to one another.' Yes, even to that total prick who wants to run you off the road as a 'lesser' species. The irony of him doesn't change who you are, or how you should conduct yourself.

Driving one of my eight wheelers last week(we had two drivers off),come up behind an old roadie, pinch points all along the road,so I can't accelerate enough to safely pass,so I sit well back at maybe 10 mph, cars trying to drive under my back axle . The next lay by we come to the old feller pulls in,still cycling to allow me past. A quick toot on the Horn from me,a wave from him,everyone's happy. The thing is we need to get rid of the whole them and us thing. Stopped reading ride cc months ago got bored of the whole thing.

I've got one, I've got one!

Only this morning, riding into the centre of Glasgow, slowing on approach to a red light and a bus comes roaring into my left hand side from behind, less than a foot away from me. Driver's window was open, so once we'd both stopped at the lights, I asked would he mind not driving his bus so close to me, no shouting/ranting/swearing, just nice and calm and polite. He angrily told me (complete with swearing) that I'd filtered really close up his side at the last set of lights (he was stationary, I was approaching the ASL), and this appeared to be his justification for intimidating me.

I realised that he sees no difference between me riding my bike near his stationary bus and him driving his bus near my moving bike, as though we're both just units on the road invading one another's personal space. Astounding.

His bus was a single-decker though, so just a wee one. Probably not as bad.

That's poor form from the bus driver 2tyred. I hate that "tit for tat" argument and have heard it myself - like you say, as if we're all just equal units on the road. The potential for harm with bus vs cycle is horrific and they scare the shit out of me..

Late last year I had a bus close pass (a foot or less) at circa 50mph and it knocked my confidence. I rang the bus company after getting the reg/bus number/time etc. and basically just said "have a word with the driver because someone will end up dead". I provided my details but never heard back... Worst bit was there was sweet FA coming the other way so I genuinely think he may not have even seen me. On the plus side, the same bus (not sure about driver) give me plenty of room this morning!