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Good, reasoned thread discussing significant affairs for outdoor enthusiasts .
Well done everyone 🙂
Billyboy - What do you mean “there’s corruption in Cumbrian local government and LDNPA”?
If it's been done for access to a farm, fair enough, if the work was to restore some heritage quarrying route, then that's bizarre. £75k though. Ooft.
It’s two fold, it’s been a magnet for off roader vehicles chewing it up and yes it’s used as a working farm track. Sad they did a final groomed layer. When it was babies heads all the way it was rather enjoyable (given its need for a bit of work)
Which way now then, from say oxen fell to a pint of Old Peculiar in the old dungeon gyll? I have previously gone along the now flattened path and road up to side pike, accidentally ending up at back of the NT campsite.
It's hard to see how that can happen without some corruption going on.
Spending that much money on a track nobody needs/wants resurfaced when the main roads are third world and there's a need for foodbanks?
It would be interesting to see a full rundown of who signed off on what, and any business links to the money being spent.
It'll be a designated feature of the ''historic landscape' so to maintain the designation they'll be legally obligated to do it but they also probably had some budget underspend to shift. Basically piss it away or you won't get it next year
‘...Spending that much money on a track nobody needs/wants resurfaced when the main roads are third world and there’s a need for foodbanks?...’
The bit being missed here is that people do want it resurfaced. The farm needs it and the constant 4*4’s ripping up the surface has badly degraded it over the last couple of years. They’ve been causing quite a degree of aggro in little langdale
Think about the hole under the gate dropping down to langdale. That’s not passable each way and the 4*4 boys are coming for the challenge which ramps it up even more.
Probably one of my favourite routes, and a little heavy handed. But that’s how it was laid originally and what it needs to be to make the track sustainable.
RE: Snowdon Ranger - it's the very bottom section where you turn off for the climb to telegraph valley. Most of it is still great - for now.
They're also ****ing the scramble at the top of the Watkin path - putting a staircase in instead of leaving it as-is. The scramble is one of the best features of the walk.
It's a joke. Had a local tell me it's because lots of people hurt themselves and mountain rescue get called out a lot - but with Snowdon atteacting half a million people a year and all the tax dollar that takes then perhaps Gwynedd council should stop relying on volunteers and fund a service for that mountain, rather than ruin the reason tourists go there in the first place.
When tracks get eroded like that walkers the walk alongside leading to braiding and widening of the eroded scar.
I have seen over the decades I have been going into the hills in the lakes and scotland popular routes go from a narrow wear mark to a wide muddy eroded mess and then repaired so it reverts to a narrow path again. those sort of repairs look awful when done but soon blend in. The alternative is that the erode further until you get huge wide scars all over the hills
How many of you that are moaning have got engaged and tried to make the repairs more sympathetic to the needs of MTBers? I bet not a single one of you has ever done so either with practical help or lobbying.
The problem is that people didn't know the works were happening until they chanced upon some bloke with a picker smashing up bedrock. The opportunity to have any input into the nature of repairs was not presented. Similarly at 3 Rivers near Staveley. The first we knew about it was encountering a fait accompli of heavy machinery and tonnes of gravel in situ.
This particular track is no wider than it was, and was down to bedrock in most of the eroded places, so wasn't likely to get any worse. There was no opportunity for vehicles to avoid the difficulties, and they present no problem for walkers. I'll defer to people who say that it has got a lot worse in the last few years, although apart from one short section on the south side, I haven't noticed myself.
I think there is general agreement that if the farmer needs repairs to access stock, then that's fine, but there seem to be a variety of 'reasons' presented by the LDNPA - some kind of UNESCO reason, allowing 'other users to enjoy' reason. Neither of those seem particularly compelling.
@tjagain - when tracks are repaired like that I walk and ride alongside the track, leading to more erosion - because I don't want to walk or ride on that stuff.
I'm not alone.
There's a level of acceptance that needs to be had - we live in a country of nearly 70 million people. Tracks are going to be eroded or widened somewhat. But the tracks we're talking about here in the lake district, and on snowdon, didn't need the "repairs" that have been carried out. Especially on Snowdon - the south side of the peak is a scree field with no real "path" in there - never has been as long as the mountain's been there. The scramble at the top is part of why people choose the Watkin path.
But they're making effing stairs. Why don't they put a f*cking escalator in? Or another goddamn train?
Most of these "repairs" are totally unnecessary. In the case of snowdon - they've taken the thin natural sheep path - which was barely noticeable in the grass up to Telegraph Valley - and made a wide, gravelled bridleway that's a slate-coloured scar visible for miles around.
It's gone from nature (could have been a sheep path, was easy to miss) to a clear obvious man-made scar.
So get off your high horse. A lot (not all, by any means, but a lot) of the work that's going on is utterly unnecessary and trashes things for walkers, never mind MTBers.
Agree @martinhutch. I was talking to a walker over Loughrigg fell who lives in the area and is angry about the repairs. Their objection "discussion" went like this:
- What are you doing?
- We're making it safe for walkers, upgrading the trail.
- Walkers hate it. You can see it for miles and it's ruined a path we had no problem with.
- Well, it's not just walkers you know - mountain bikers use it too.
- Mountain bikers hate it. You can see it for miles and it's ruined a path they had no problem with.
- Well, what about disabled people. You couldn't get a wheelchair up there. We've got to cater to the less-abled y'know.
It's a mindset of "we have the money, not enough to do a *proper* hand-made job, but we're going to do something because we've an objective to "repair paths" in the lakes and if we don't fulfill that objective we'll be out of a job."
A man who's paypacket relies on him not understanding something is completely immune to *any* logical argument.
got engaged and tried to make the repairs more sympathetic to the needs of MTBers?
What would you suggest we ask for?
The preferred option of course is always to leave it alone... Failing that my proposal would be to put jumps and berms in
Can you imagine the response to that suggestion !!
What you ask for is a design that reduces potential conflict. The last time I came down the Three Rivers descent I had a chat with some walkers, we all agreed that the "design" would lead to incidents as there's now a couple of very fast smooth blind corners especially when the bracken is in full growth.
Adding "features" that are of interest to mountain bikers doesn't necessarily mean reducing access to other users.
How many of you that are moaning have got engaged and tried to make the repairs more sympathetic to the needs of MTBers? I bet not a single one of you has ever done so either with practical help or lobbying.
You'd lose that bet and I'd suggest winding your neck in a bit and/or informing yourself better of the specific situation re. MTB advocacy in the Lakes.
Adding “features” that are of interest to mountain bikers doesn’t necessarily mean reducing access to other users.
Nope
We don't want features or gravel
As soon as you mess with it in any way you kill the wildness which draws people to real mountains
I personally love the fact that some bits may just not be ridable. It adds to the adventure (and I am sure most proper hikers appreciate more challenging trails also)
We have trail centres for stony paths and "features"
ndthorton. What actually happens is folk walk alongside the eroded path widening it. repair the path and they walk on it. I have seen this so many times and I have had to say to mtbers " please ride on the path not alongside it". Same with swerving around puddles.
Unless paths are maintained and repaired then the erosion simply gets worse and worse.
And those unrideable bits mean that you keep your average speed way down - which reduces conflict with walkers.
Walkers who love the natural, broken, difficult paths that have been bringing them into the mountains for years.
You know - to escape "manicured" environments and disappear into the little wilderness that is left for us.
Cha****ng - if you have been involved then good for you. Its what is needed.
Chevy - its not wilderness. Its a managed man made landscape! there is no wilderness in the UK. Its all managed and man made. Every bit ( bar a few remnants of Caledonian forest)
@tjagain - your argument is fallacious (and ignores my response to this point earlier - presumeably because you find it inconvenient).
There's only so "wide" a path will ever get. People aren't just going to walk or ride wider and wider ad-infinitum until the whole countryside becomes path. The width of paths is essentially down to the number of people using them and intelligent acceptance of that fact is what is required - not the absolute trashing of what makes those paths popular in the first place with tonnes of gravel and slate.
There's a sad human sickness of "something must be done" when, in most of these cases, nothing is that something.
Edit: I take your point about "wilderness". But "manicured" it ain't. Which is what's happening.
The logical endpoint of that argument could easily be "tarmac the paths - it lasts longer and it's not wilderness anyway". It's clearly about "feel" as much as use. But the "repairs" that are being done "feel" wrong to many and also interfere with their use - mostly detrimentally in the eyes of the major user groups - walkers and mountain bikers.
Farmers? That's a different discussion. But walkers and mountain bikers for the most part are disgusted.
I rode it today and I have to say it was 100 times less appealing than it used to be.
Is it like that all the way down? How wet was everything over there today, BTW?
Chevychase - utter nonsense. I have seen tracks become 30 m wide eroded scars.
Its well proven that properly repaired paths reduce erosion and stop braiding
Aye, through a bog TJ, this track was about 8 feet wide, and pretty much all bedrock and is still that width...
Why do you continue to argue about trails you dont even know?.
It's not so long ago you said you'd never rode in the lakes, but didn't think it looked very good. 🤣🤣🤣
@chevychase - the "old" path from the New Dungeon Gill up to Stickle tarn was on the true right of the beck and got to be about 50m wide at some points. It was just a massive scar that could be seen from way down the valley (I don't think it was all walkers, from memory there were one or two small becks it crossed that eroded things). In the early to mid 1980s the LDNP did work on the path on the opposite bank then basically shut the old path and reseeded it. The only people who go that way these days are the runners on the Langdale Horseshoe Fell Race plus maybe a few who wander up it for old time's sake.
Similarly the path up the front Brown Tongue to Scafell Pike got pretty wide but just from footfall. There used to be a little known path to the right (looking up) that was much quieter. The LDNP upgraded this path with set stones and then shut the path up the front.
Why do you continue to argue about trails you dont even know?.
This. Honestly, you're nearly as bad as you used to be.
The more this happens, the more people will ride (and to a certain extent walk) off piste.
**** em. If you know something good, ride it now. In ten years it is either going to be sanitised or covered in houses.
I have walked a lot in the lakes and the erosion upsets me - the state of the trails since I was a kid to now.
I also get irritated by the entitled MTBers that insist that an eroded mess is the best thing going and that walkers want these eroded messes when all the actual evidence states other wise. I just hate seeing these eroded scvars on the lanscape and people like the OPs attitude towards path repair
But point taken - I'll shut up. It ain't gonna convince folk anyway.
Regardless of what side of this particular dick-fencing battle you find yourself on, that looks like a shit bit of work.
Dick fencing would look better. Perhaps with some tit bollards
And a hairy fanny gap jump.
when tracks are repaired like that I walk and ride alongside the track, leading to more erosion – because I don’t want to walk or ride on that stuff.
I’m not alone.
And it's this type of tossery that is going to get hard won access revoked for others. That's not responsible access at all.
It's not responsible trail "repair" - so it kinda balances out.
‘... It’s not responsible trail “repair” – so it kinda balances out....’
Crushed stone road with stone from local quarry is resurfaced with crushed stone from local quarry. How’s that not responsible? Ok it’s not as exciting to ride or drive.
But it’s a road that’s been repaired as it was built. You might not like it. I don’t really, but it needed sorting to resolve the access issues.
Its certainly not an irresponsible rebuild - that would be tarmac...
Eroded mess? The natural bed rock was much more in keeping with the landscape than what’s there now.
If there’s money to spare, fill some bloody pot holes!