[Closed] A bike build... time trialling on a budget

umop3pisdn - That, as they say is a whopper.

Do you only TT on fixed? I'm quite TT fixed curious (ahem) but have MANY questions.

And Njee - thank you. That saves me sending him an email...!

Haha flange, it's not sold yet! If it's not sold by the time I've stripped it down I'll pop it on the classifieds.

Bugger...

Budget...

My entire TT bike cost the same as your stem!!!

Nice build though 🙂

Chap in my first ever club did everything on fixed. Had a good bike for the summer and time trials, and a mudguarded up bike for winter, commuting and touring. Everything from youth hostelling in scotland (after riding there first) to the RTTC national 12hr all on fixed.........

I think he was a bit odd.

I presume it's a bit like SSing, you just get used to it and the shortcomings aren't as bad as they first look. Most people can pedal from 40-120rpm, which is 300%, which is only a smidgen behind the range of a 11-25 - 38/52.

Is there a better place to be looking for track bikes than ebay? Most on there seem to be Planet-X's which is fine, but they're £500-£700, the same as a new one or not far off!

umop3pisdn - That, as they say is a whopper.

Do you only TT on fixed? I'm quite TT fixed curious (ahem) but have MANY questions.

Yup! Everything from 10s to 100s (3:49 last year), and also tackling a 12hr this year.

Happy to answer any questions, either on here or my email is in my profile.

I presume it's a bit like SSing, you just get used to it and the shortcomings aren't as bad as they first look. Most people can pedal from 40-120rpm, which is 300%, which is only a smidgen behind the range of a 11-25 - 38/52.

Yeah pretty much this - it's no way near as bad as people think. The people who slate it the most tend to have never ridden fixed. That said I think you need to devote a fair amount of time to it to get the most from it, and it's not suited for really rolling courses (but is of course perfect for hillclimbing).

LFGSS is a good place to look.

You don't have to spend loads, a friend built this mega cheap:

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Can I do a TT on my commuter bike, this?

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UCI would I think say no as there isn't a front triangle. CTT may allow it though.

Ahhh... I see yes.. 😉

It was the clear precursor of this:

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😆

New BB collect+'ed...

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In keeping with the budget theme.... at least it's not Ceramic Speed 😉

How do you size up TT bikes? Assuming I ride a 56cm road bike (6ft, average proportions) and can touch my toes (and get my palms flat on the floor on a good day) so pretty flexible. Seems like track and TT bikes are 74+ seat angles, but still have 56cm top tubes, so do I look for a 56cm bike (with a subsequently long reach), or a 54cm (which would put the bars in the same place relative to the BB). I'm guessing the former as you're never out of the saddle for very long?

The obvious answer is "ask your LBS" or "get a bike fit", but my realistic budget for a 2nd hand frame/bike is probably less than the cost of a bike fit!

umop3pisdn,
Out of interest, is that a track frame or a TT frame with a 130mm 'track' hub?

Track frame, Cervelo T3. You can use a TT frame with a 130mm fixed hub, but the track ends on TT bikes tend to be quite short so gear choice can be difficult.

Sizing is a funny one, I tend to go for a similar top tube length to my road bike cos I find a stretched out position works well for me, but plenty of people advise going for a frame at least a size smaller.

A more forward saddle position isn't necessarily the right way forward also, that's an influence from the Tri world. My saddle is in pretty much the same position across road and TT bikes.

How do you size up TT bikes?

Was a bit of trail and error here. Had a vague idea of stack and reach from putting clip on's on the road bike. Went for a smaller frame that I knew could be made to fit initially even if it looked a bit silly, and had plenty of scope for position change. You can get some very adjustable clip/pole/pad combinations, combined with a normal stem, that then give you a lot of scope to change pad stack and reach (the Zipp Vuka Alumina poles will go under or over the base bar, and you can get up to 50mm of extra stack from risers, and they've got about 100mm of fore/aft adjustment on the poles, and the pad placement is independent of the clips. Throw in stem changes and you have a huge amount of adjustment.)

For a road frame I'd probably start looking at a 56" but it really depends on the numbers as want a long reach and low stack. I went for a medium with the Stealth and a 54" for the Cervelo.

TINAS, as you're so close, you're welcome to have a play on mine if you're curious.

A more forward saddle position isn't necessarily the right way forward also, that's an influence from the Tri world. My saddle is in pretty much the same position across road and TT bikes.

One consequence of TT'ing is that my road position is moving closer to that on the TT bike. Saddle position is pretty close now, hip angle is pretty close on the drops too. A fair bit faster now.

Cheers for the offer, I'd probably just find my epic beer belly gets in the way though!

I'm guessing I'm probably closer to a 56/large, which makes sense, my torso still has to fit between the saddle and bars regardless of the seat angle.

Reading some of the earlier posts, can I just say you really dont NEED to spend a lot.
My tips:
Old style wheels are super cheap 2nd hand. Get an old 808 and a 19mm tyre (still possibly fastest you can get)
Rear use a cover, tape it on with electrical tape, it will be super slippery!
A cheap (and 2nd hand) aero bar is often the best option for a beginner as they are often the most adjustable which will gain you more speed than anything else.
spend a few quid on a tt fit, then you can buy 2nd hand frames with confidence. Choose something with proven pedigree (p2 or similar)

Kit wise: Bell Javelin will be most peoples best bet and are around £50 if you shop around
Velotoze are cheap
Skinsuit- This is where I would spend money tbh. Keep an eye out for a bodypaint bioracer or nopinz suit

Despite what some people think you can make A LOT of the gains with getting an aero position without proper testing. Have a look at photos of yourself in races or even on the turbo (at the end of a session when tired). Test changes by riding club TTs. Usually enough of the same faces turn up to see moderate improvements in drag.

Im no athlete, pretty average on a road bike but I paid a bit of attention to my kit and position. 19.19 on p415, 19.26 on r10/17, 19.56 and course record on U7b. 49.20 on R25/7 - not the ski slope. 280.5 miles to win the Welsh 12 hr a couple of years ago.

Velotoze are cheap

But tear easily

m no athlete, pretty average on a road bike but I paid a bit of attention to my kit and position.

Those results would suggest otherwise. 🙂

The aero thing is huge though, you just need to plug the numbers into a drag/power/speed calculator to see how much a small reduction in drag is worth. There's a topic over on the time trialling forum about what power you needed to break 20 minutes on a 10 and it's a considerable range, even for same course and same day. Some very slippy riders out there.

Balls, that's not going to fit either...

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Time for another re-think. The Park Tools routing kit is saving my sanity.

Would be so much easier if Pro had built in a nice little access cover on the underside of the base bar.

Andy Wilkinson's bike although not cheap does go to show you do not have to follow the standard route to get a good aero position.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/andy-wilkinsons-dolan-time-trial-bike-29431

Andy Wilkinson's bike although not cheap does go to show you do not have to follow the standard route to get a good aero position.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/andy-wilkinsons-dolan-time-trial-bike-29431

I love that he commutes on that too!

Dragged mine out of the attic last night and had a fiddle with the gears.

They work. As long as i don't move the handlebars....... I'm either going to need to use a tandem inner and 2 metres of outer to get a smooth run for the rear mech. Or go Di2. :/

Or get some of the segmented aluminium outer for the bar/frame interface. In fact, looking at it. It'd probably need an entire set due to the amount of cabling round there.

Doubles my budget. Bugger.

The segmented stuff is good. I went for nokon and it transformed the rear shifting on my PX from unusable to almost tolerable. Got some spare now 🙂

Got the bars routed in the end. Managed to get a junction box and all the loose cabling in each of the bull horns... but then remembered I needed to run a brake cable through there as well. All back out and try again 😕

Thanks to some free time babysitting for some mates tonight I got the bars all cabled up. Just a single Di2 cable and both brake cables out the exit holes to the stem. Tidy.

A junction box in each bullhorn and lots of thinking about where the loose cable is going. And remembering the brake cables too!

Next step is to plug it all together next and hope it all works.

Apologies this is taking so long. Must be finished by next weekend though as it's first test of the season and my old bike is in bits.

It lives!

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What a massive faff that was. Spent about two whole evenings just trying out various routing options. The internal routing kit was a help. As was a bit of wire taped to the end of a straw. Had to dremel the hole under the BB, the exit hole near the front mech, and the exit hole at the bottom of the down tube. Then it was a lot of fishing about to thread the cables through. There's an annoying bulkhead just above the BB with a tiny hole in it. A massive PITA in getting into the seat tube from the BB area.

Incredibly it all seems to work 🙂

Anyway, almost done now, pretty much all Di2 internally routed. Just a hole on the top tube to drill behind the stem.

Not sure if you already know this trick, or if it would work on every frame. But put a hoover upto the hole you want the cable to come out of, take a bit of cotton thread and feed it into the other end and let the hoover do the work.

Heard it on a bike forum and used it on the boat a few times for getting rope to where it needs to be.

I did have a can of compressed air and some thread that I had planned to use. Didn't need it in the end.

Main problem was the internal bulkheads and the holes being just a little too small for the di2 connectors. Just needed to find the right combination of cables and junctions.

know nothing about TT, but if you are super worried about aero, wouldn't a 1 by system be better? the box on that front mech looks bulky.

Would be, and it is tempting. If I had two bikes for racing and training I'd set the main race one up as 1x. But I don't. Maybe later in the season I might try it.

Front mech looks bulkier in that photo than it actually is. Smaller than the old 10 speed Di2 on the road bike I think.

Top tube drilled, steerer cut, bars on. It's starting to look like a proper bike!

Had to swap the 5 port A junction for a 3 port, and will still have to take a dremel to the tabs on the back in order to get the seatpost in.

Brake outers were a PITA as they have a very tight bend through the hole into the side and out the bottom of the stem, bit of a struggle getting the inner through there. May swap over to some Jagwire Link cable but that would likely mean taking the bars apart again 😕 Shall see how sticky they are in use. It's very tempting to do the Andy Potts / TriRig mod and chop a corner off the back of the base bar for the Di2 cable and rear brake, as below...

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Looks pretty tidy here...

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Not sure I can bring myself to take a cutting disc to 800 quids worth of bars though 😐

know nothing about TT, but if you are super worried about aero, wouldn't a 1 by system be better?

Not sure I can bring myself to take a cutting disc to 800 quids worth of bars though

Even you're at it now: "the bars on this budget build were way to expensive to risk damaging" 😉

It's a lovely build, dare I say it... A second hand Cervelo seems a waste! Black would be a faster too.

It wasn't unusual not that long ago to run a half step double and a close ratio cassette. So you get a good spread of TT sensible gears. Think my last one was 46/54 and 12-21 ish.

That's mostly what I run now. Does give a nice spread. Am I old school already?

A second hand Cervelo seems a waste! Black would be a faster too.

Well it's spending the budget where I think it'll make the most difference*, and that's the front end. I'd like to upgrade the forks too, got eBay on the case. There are bits of white, black and red, the three fastest colours 🙂

* di2 is the obvious exception to that rule, I just wanted di2.

Damn right! Di2 has to be done.

Your logic makes sense - frame makes about the least difference in all the literature I've read, at least within the category of "TT bikes".

The Enve TT bars are nice, was playing with a set in Sigma on Sunday.

Am I old school already?

I was listening to a time trial podcast with Hutch and Xav, I think the equipment list went (in order of most important:

Tribars
Skinsuit
Helmet
Front wheel
Rear wheel
frame

But all of those were trumped by position! I have just realised i have owned up to listening to a TT podcast, but it is interesting, and the guys in my club have some super slippy positions sorted. Mine is more like a brick....towing a parachute......dragging a rhino!

not really, most of the aero benefit for a low profile is in being able to get a low/narrow position AND be able to hold it with minimal discomfort. Once you get much past the front 25-33% of the bike and those legs/cranks spinning round, the air is so turbulent that the actual aero gains for the bike are pretty much experimental error sized.

Cervelo state that the front derailleur [b]hanger[/b] causes as much drag as the entire downtube of the new P3 - single ring is worth doing.

Cervelo state that the front derailleur hanger causes as much drag as the entire downtube of the new P3 - single ring is worth doing.

Is pretty amazing that. Still probably a tiny increment compared to the anchor like drag of my size 12 feet right next to it!

It's coming along...

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(Edit... still need to fix that cupboard door!)

Bars all done. Wiring done. Crankset was a bit of a bugger as the new Rotor ceramic BB was super tight (really don't like bashing the power meter with a mallet!) I ended up cracking an insert so had to dig out a Shimano one from the spares box.

Nice clean front end (unlike the floor, that's a different thread!)...

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Not too sure about the orientation of the bar end shifters, seems about right with the way I hold the bars, I'll see how I get on.

Here's the hole I had to drill on the top tube, might have to make it a bit bigger to properly fit the grommet.

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And here's under the BB. Had to enlarge the hole coming out the down tube and the hole that the front mech cable would normally go up. Shall tape the cables down.

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Still got to sort out the brakes. Got some nice [url= http://www.tririg.com/store.php?c=omega ]TriRig Omega X[/url] brakes in the post (I'll also change the butchered outer for some Jagwire Link.) Until they arrive it'll have the Ultegra brakes but I need a longer pivot nut for the front. Still not decided whether to leave it at 10 speed, I think my wheels are ok for 11 speed so I may need to pick up a new cassette and chain. Need to put some grip tape on the bars too.

First club 10 of the season tomorrow, I'm not sure it's going to be ready in time 😕 If it is then shake down ride will likely be race warm up. What could possibly go wrong 🙂

That looks ace. I'm a big fan of the aesthetics of Cervelos. I may end up with an S3 one day.

Looking good! from an aesthetics point of view, knowing nothing of the sport.

Cervelo state that the front derailleur hanger causes as much drag as the entire downtube of the new P3 - single ring is worth doing.

i can imagine that, from my limited understanding of aerodyanmics and turbulence. What I do know is that increasing turbulence in the boundary layer increases the resistance felt by flow, having a block like that will generate a lot of turbulence which, for reasons of blockage, may also be presnt up- flow and hence cascade onto the other side of the seat tube . I also think the FD is in relitively clean air for at least half a peddle stroke (assuming going straight ahead).

Thanks gray.

Ferrals, I just about followed that! It's a wonder why they don't build some sort of aero shroud for the FD into the down tube. I'm sure they could do it in such a way as to make it "structural" and not just a fairing.

Off to my LBS now to see if they have a long brake pivot bolt.

Because that would be a fairing which is generally against regs, and the only way to get around those is to be Pinarello.

Looking ready...

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... but still got saddle to pop on (obviously!) And still got to fit the cassette and chain and get the Di2 all set up. And the cupboard door to fix. So close but that's probably it for tonight as the turbo calls.

Edit... just popped it on the Park Tools scales. Not too bothered about the weight but for those curious it's 17lbs 14oz without chain and saddle. Think it'll be a shade lighter than the PX but not that much in it really.