http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article6662159.ece
ermmmmm not sure about that
What utter rubbish.
No account of the amount of resources to build and dispose of the car and bike. that will tip the balance remarkably the other way. No need to buy plastic bottles of drink.
What a cock - not effort at all to check his ground. If he'd never bought his knob's car in the first place, then the savings would be pretty profound.
TJ, that does rely on people entirely replacing a car with a bike though doesn't it. I'd say that the majority (or at least a significant proportion) of people who commute to work don't do it every day and have a car sat at home when they do.
Similarly, not everyone buys a bottled drink but plenty of people would eat more than they would do otherwise which they justifiably claim isn't green.
I agree though, it does sound rather simplistic.
The Times being anti bike and pro car?
NEVER!
Are these people too profoundly stupid to spot a hole that size in their own reasoning, or do they just not care? Either is pretty bad. 😀
firstly, an extra shirt each day equates to 5 shirts extra each week which is certainly NOT an extra load in the washing machine each week.
and i love one of the replies at the bottom of the page
But you overlook the main environmental impact of cycling. Bikes slow the traffic so cars are on the road longer and running at inefficient speeds that use more petrol and create more pollution.
😥
I'm surpirsed they haven't brought out the old Times line that driving is more environmentally responsible than cycling as [i]the exhaust is cleaner than the air which goes into the engine[/i]
Clubber - not necessarily - he is counting the spares on the bike anyway - and every mile you do on a bike is one less in the car - so your car lasts longer. compare 20000 miles a year in a car to 10 000 in the car and 10 000 on the bike - your car will last twice as long - as will tyres and so on.
people seem to be missing out the crucial difference between a skyline and a skyline GT-R, one is a ford sierra/granada like your grandad drove, the other is a ford sierra XR4 cosworth V8 thats spent some time in the tuning shop.
But he's still a very big tangent line on a dome shaped lump of metal.
That article made me feel very depressed. This one, by contrast, cheered me up no end:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/jul/07/improbable-research-discotheques
Yeah that's a fair point TJ - like I said, it's more complex than they presented but equally more complex than your arguement that if they're riding a bike then a car doesn't get made.
Clubber - do you really want the 30000 word dissertation? Oversimplification of what is complex is the scourge of trying to argue on a forum 🙂
I didn't say the car wouldn't be made - but that you have to look at the total environmental costs not just some of them.
No account of the amount of resources to build and dispose of the car and bike. that will tip the balance remarkably the other way
To my mind you did 🙂
My car's mileage is about 1000 miles less per year than it would be if I didn't commute. That's unlikely to make any significant difference to how long I keep it and even to the cost of ownership (the biggest expense is servicing which gets done yearly regardless) and clearly it's still been made. I reckon that I'm a reasonably typical commuter if you look at 'normal people' who commute on bikes rather than commuters who consider themselves cyclists.
It's hard to see his point and what he actually means by '"saves" an ounce if petrol'- if he even knows himself. He's mixing up little parts of lots of different arguments. Wonder whether he's being deliberately selective with the things he's highlighting or just crapped it out?
Clubber, I think you've drawn up a very narrow scenario there. What about households which only have one car, thanks to one member being able to commute by bike? What about all the non-commuting journeys you save? The fitness benefits? In your case, the reduction to the "bike" element of your carbon contribution by virtue of the fact that many of your bike purchases are second hand, and in some cases third or fourth? 😉
You're right Mr_A - there will be cases where it does save buying a car but not always. I don't really ever use my bikes for getting around - I'd just walk.
Good point that my bikes are particularly green though 🙂 I've had very few brand new bikes/frames.
In fact, STW can claim to be particularly green in ensuring that second hand bike kit is recycled through the classifieds...
Keeps you fit and hopefully out of the NHS system unless you are unluck to be hit by a stupid driver!
ok lets look a bit closer...additional maintenance for the car due to extra mileage (i.e. oil change), more car tyres in the waste stream, more air pollution due to exhaust fumes, more traffic (causing more pollution due to congestion
On the +ve side...
rider is fitter thereby avoiding hospital bills, and carbon footprint, less dependent on the state, works longer and is therefore more productive, is happier (slimmer and fitter).
Keeps you fit and hopefully out of the NHS system
and similar on aw's points.
Absolutely and that's why it's great when people take up cycling.
It just doesn't necessarily mean that they're being 'greener' by doing it and that's what the original article linked to was about. Not other benefits.
Clubber - you car lasts ( for arguments sake) 100 000 miles Thats ten years at 10 000 miles a year. Now cycle 1000 of those miles each year and the car last 11 yrs and one month. Thats a 10% saving in cars built.
Again very much oversimplified
To gain any comparison of "greenness" of anything you need to look at total environmental costs over the lifetime of the product. Extend the lifetime and you reduce the costs per unit time
'normal people' who commute on bikes rather than commuters who consider themselves cyclists.
Hmm a curious line, which side that would I be on I wonder. Reminds me of the "he's not a cyclist" discussion we have at work whenever we see a "cyclist commits armed robbery" or similar headline, the geezers who've been pulling jobs and getaway in a motor aren't described as motorists are they? Only time someone is described as motorist is when they've actually used the car in the crime e.g. killed someone by running them over, but in those cases it's normally the victims fault for having the audacity to be in the motorists way.
It just doesn't necessarily mean that they're being 'greener' by doing it and that's what the original article linked to was about. Not other benefits
You can't really ringfence that as a separate benefit - the environmental impact of caring for people with long term illnesses must be massive.
You're not going to puncture my bubble of smugness that easily. 😉
LOL - ok, I'll leave it there then. You're a big bearded eco warrior, near singlehandedly saving the world from eco disaster 🙂
D0NK - I guess that the point I was trying to make is that people who consider themselves cyclists (like everyone here) do it because they enjoy it rather than for purely practical reasons. As such they're quite likely to try to commute by bike if possible. That's very different to 'normal people' who do it for purely practical reasons and are less likely to cycle to work every day. I know plenty of people who cycle to work but would never consider themselves 'cyclists' in the same way that by driving a car, they don't consider themselves a 'driver' or motorist (though come to think of it one does race cars and he probably would call himself a 'driver'...)
do you think the article might have been more about bean counters & statisticians than it was about bikes Vs Cars?
I think that article was a textbook example of ecological sensitivity - a recycled argument, and no fossil fuels were wasted on research...
I think the article might have been trying to sell newspapers by being controversial.
It's a distinct possibility adh. I've even heard that the meja sometimes make up sensational stories in order to sell more. Shocked me, I can tell you!
From the paper that brought us lil' Matty Parris on "why cyclists should be decapitated" adh? 😉