[Closed] £700 fine for Brighton cyclist.

Sounds like the actions of a teenager rather than a 53 yr old! link isn't working tho?

Sounds like the actions of a teenager rather than a 53 yr old!

That sounds really really funny when taken in the context of the STW forum.. especially if you substitute the word 'actions' for 'arguments'

I'm totally baffled why people think it's OK to go through a red light when they're on a bike. I've had people whizz past me as I've stood in the ASL box and it would appear that they haven't even checked to see if there's anyone coming from either side. I doubt very much that they'd be able to stop if a vehicle was coming at the normal speed.

And yet, drive banned, with no tax or insurance, and get fined £200 or so.....

that's what I thought PP - he's being 'made an example of' really.

failure to stop was what did it. one way to really get a copper agitated.
all he would have had to do was stop and give it the full 'yes sir, no sir', and he probably would have been on his way with a flea in his ear. either that or make bloody sure you don't get caught!

Run away & they take it personally 🙂

no sympathy - I'm afraid

The fine is out of all proportion, he should appeal.

I've been fined in brighton for riding along the (desserted) esplanade on a rainy october afternoon.

I questioned them why this was such a priority, and basically it's what they get the most complaints from from residents. Ironically there have been three drug related murders within 500 yards of my flat in the past 2 years.

Brighton police have been tasked with getting cyclists to obey the rules, which is fair enough, but I do feel that they get priorities wrong while they try to appease the complainers of Brighton.

To be fair I should really put in a complaint about the drug related murders in the area and something might get done!

Red lights are for car users only surely?

uplink - Member

Run away & they take it personally

no sympathy - I'm afraid

Indeed 😀

Haha. Serves him right. I wish they'd do that to all red light jumpers.

So it's a £700 fine and "serves him right" for riding harmlessly through a red light or a [url= http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/399442/macintyre-s-family-seek-500-000-damages.html ]£500 fine for "careless driving" and killing a cyclist[/url].

He deserves to be fined for allowing himself to be caught by the police, ffs... 🙄

MilitantGraham. I said nothing about the proportionality of the fine. Im just glad he actully got pulled up for it. And yes, it does serve him right in my eyes.

dickydutch, although I quoted you, my reply wasn't aimed at you personally.
I just don't get this idea, that is common amongst cyclists, that if cyclists stopped RLJing, motorists would somehow magically stop killing cyclists, as if the one provoked the other.

MilitantGraham - 'riding harmlessly through a red light'

on this occasion...

The big fine is not for the red light jumping - its for failure to stop

GSuperstar - fined £700

on this occasion...

ha ha. have a mental image of the fella sprinting away from the po po's at full tilt!

You'll never catch me!

ahh balls.

MilitantGraham - Sorry, i wasn't arguing with the point you were bringing up, obviously his actions dont outweigh your example of a lower fine, it was more the impression that his Red Light action was harmless.

MilitantGraham. No problems. And I can sort of see your point. I'm just glad someone has been made an example of at last. NExt time they run a red light, they may well ruin somebody elses life, not least their own.

EDIT - No idea why theres a double post?!

GSuperstar, I get what you mean now.
It's just that there's no mention in the article about causing injury or damage, so £700 seems away out of proportion for the original offences. Like TJ says, the failing to stop bit must have had something to do with that.

Definitely. It would make for an interesting watch if it made it's way to Watch Dog or such 🙂

found guilty of ignoring a red traffic light, cycling without lights, cycling on the pavement and failing to stop for police.

I think the £700 really comes down to the number of offences he managed to commit in quite a short space of time, He’s lucky really he didn’t fail a breath test too….

Does he deserve the Hefty fine? Well he’s not helped the image of cyclists, he has actually broken the law 4 different ways, and risked causing an RTA, the cost of scraping his stupid arse off the tarmac treating him and diverting traffic around the scene had he caused one could well have exceeded the amount he’s been charged, so yeah why not?

But round my way (Reading) that sort of ****tery is generally ignored by the Rozzers...

Brighton rider here.
Quite a few busy roads with lots of buses.
Is slightly jumping a light to maintain speed and keep up or ahead of traffic acceptable ?
Lots of tw$$ts out there riding witin the law but dangerously..

Fine seems totally disproportionate to the crime and isn't 'being made an example of' intrinsically unfair and unjust ?

Similar to drunk drivers being given more severe penalties if they are caught over xmas. Is it really worse to d&d then, than at any other time?

Makes a mockery of a 'fair and just' system, when quite evidently it is neither.

£700 seems high, the Argus article has little details, would suggest the crim was not very co-operative.
J.

He’s lucky really he didn’t fail a breath test too….

He doesn't have to give a sample, it's not enforcable for cyclists amazingly.

Quite frankly I'm sick of RLJers both when I'm on a bike and in the car, so I'm glad he ran and was caught.

There's lots of fines/sentences that appear unfair but AFAIK the magistrates have to stick to guidelines

Wasn't there that cyclist that killed a pedestrian as a result of dangerous or furious or whatever cycling gets a 2k fine?
Like the £500 one linked above - it doesn't appear fair or just but I guess it's within the guidelines for the offence

I was once accosted by a PC in Brighton for jumping a red light. I stopped and explained reasonably how the road works, significantly narrowing the junction made it extremely dangerous for me to start out at the same time as the busses lined up behind me (cycle lane but no ASL) so I was getting away in the few seconds before the light changed to enable myself to take up a more central position in the road.

She accepted my explanation and took no further action. In all honesty, at that time the juction was leathal and even if she'd hit me with a spot fine I'd have still done the same thing the next day.

Sorry, not relevant to the OP at all. 😳

Colin-T, that's all well and good if you observe properly and are very slow and careful in your crossing but not everyone is and that can result in danger to everyone else not just you, which isn't acceptable. Red lights are there for everyones safety. If you can't cope with being in a junction with other traffic maybe you should reconsider using that road.

Brighton is supposed to be one of the government cycling towns.
Planning of the cycle lanes is an absolute joke..
Oh and there is no parking in town
Rant over
j.

they try to appease the complainers of Brighton.

Democracy works...

Re the original cyclist - if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. To be honest trying to evade the rozzers is stupid and he deserves to have the book thrown at him.

Colin-T - could you not have positioned yourself in front of the lead vehicle in the middle of the lane and waited for green? It's what I do. Equivalent to what you'd do if an ASL was there.

Is slightly jumping a light to maintain speed and keep up or ahead of traffic acceptable?
Lots of tw$$ts out there riding witin the law but dangerously..

Sorry you've lost me, are you suggesting it’s a straight choice between riding Illegally and riding dangerously but Legally? I can't see why it's impossible to do both...

RLJing in a Car is not "acceptable", and it's believing that Cyclists are a special case that gives all those Clarksonite, Mail reading, road ragers Ammunition to campaign against cycling on the roads, jump a Red or do a bit of Amber gambling if you want, but just remember the filter timings are set for cars not bikes, and I'd have minimal sympathy for you if you get T-boned and pinged across a junction....

If your journey is that important then leave 5 minutes sooner, That’s most likely what any car driver would get told while the Plod print out his ticket for RLJing, Can't see how the same doesn't apply to a cyclist myself.

If we want truly fair and equitable access to the Roads (Which Cycling in this country does not really have at the moment) then it’s right that we abide by the rules and legislation as they apply to us, and accept the penalties for transgression, otherwise you’re asking for “rights without responsibility”; effectively the manifesto of a 4 year old…

Molgrips - doing that where there is no ASL is red light jumping as well.- and I have some of the same issues as Colin and there are times when it is definitely safer to go thru the red light than it is to wait for green.

If by going early you get past a pinch point before the cars catch up with you you are improving your safety. Badly designed roads can make RLJing the only safe way to proceed

From Inspector James Briggs

This behaviour puts both the cyclists and other road users at risk and we will respond robustly to anyone found committing such offences.

That's all well and good but I trust he is responding equally 'robustly' to the myriad of 'serious' crimes, not to mention the Brighton portion of an estimated 2 million uninsured car drivers in the UK. 🙄

Red lights are for car users only surely?

Think you'll find they apply to all road users.

I'm afraid I have no sympathy with the fella, he jumped a light, got caught, failed to stop when instructed to - fair enough IMO. Trouble is though, with other crimes seemingly on the increase the feds are doing themselves no favours in this instance.

For all we know he could have also been a bit lippy to the beak

I can think of at least two situations where I've been forced to jump red lights on a bike. First occaision was a long stretch of temporary lights uphill, no way I could clear it in the time interval allowed. Second situation is traffic lights triggered by induction loops in the road. No chance of triggering them with a carbo road bike. Again due to road works there were no cars in my lane so after seeing the lights cycle several times before I jumped the lights.

Do agree though in the above case he deserved it. I just think we have some huge inconsitencies in sentancing guidelines though.

Never in a hurry when I cycle..
Just do not want to get run over whatever the law says..
I always stop at lights, mand then try to anticpate the green to get myself going.
J.

Hmmm, the term "going early" is creeping in here, reading the pattern of the lights and having the road awareness to set off a second or so sooner than the car/bus/van next to you is not the same as Blatting through a Red light, "The Brighton One" appears to have been taking the piss quite honestly, no lights, RLJing, using the pavement and failure to stop (Probably because he knew the book would be thrown at him), He's hardly a Martyr to the cause...

If we want truly fair and equitable access to the Roads...then it’s right that we abide by the rules and legislation as they apply to us...

Are you suggesting that if all cyclists stopped RLJing, local councils and the Highways Department would then provide proper facilities for cyclists ?
Or, to put it another way, are you suggesting that they don't provide proper facilities because some of us RLJ ?
I can't see the connection.

Reading the report and the level of the costs ordered i guess he also ran the case to trial rather than pleading guilty at an early stage. If he has done so he has not received the discount for a guilty plea of 33% and may have aggravated the bench during the course of the hearing. As has been said not stopping at the time is a serious offence carrying a greater punishment and annoys the police making a book throwing more likely.

Molgrips, the junction was such that getting myself in-front of the traffic would have meant putting myself in the crossing traffic so that option was out. I'd already waited a cycle of the lights to try and start out legally and safely.

As for fair and equitable treatment...some drivers do give cyclists fair and equitable treatment, others, far too many, see bikes as inconveniences, anoyances, less than human even. However, I will always follow the most important "law" of riding on the road, that is to ride in a manner that maximises my safety and minimises my risk whilst putting no others at risk.

@ MilitantGraham

Nope,

I’m suggesting they treat us like tossers because of the visible minority they see acting tossers it, then it’s a case of who shouts loudest, and those in favour of giving cars full priority shout loudest when cyclists are seen to be breaking the rules, you take away their ammunition if cyclists no longer break the rules, then we might be taken seriously if we ask for Cycle lanes that don’t end suddenly or route us under busses….

Molgrips - doing that where there is no ASL is red light jumping as well.

Technically, yes. But in principle no. I go to the front (which you're allowed to do), position myself in front of the lead car, and then stop and wait for green. You'd have a hard time prosecuting me for that - especially as they started putting in ASLs to encourage people to do exactly that.

As for why police should bother with this - how much time do you think it took? If the rozzer in question had no other urgent calls to be answering it could well have been 5-10 minutes well spent. I'm sure if he'd been on an emergency call to a drug related gangland shoot-out he'd not have stopped.

I see your point, cookeaa, I just don't think real life works like that.
To get from my house to the nearest town in either direction, I've got to either ride on a narrow B road with a 60mph limit, steep hills and blind bends, or a footpath along the river bank. I ride on the footpath.
I can't believe that even if every cyclist in the country suddenly started obeying all the rules, the council would provide a proper, safe cycle route.

I was thinking about the list of offences; picture this, riding towards cross roads, road to the left has people exiting joining the road you are on, road to the right is a dead end and has no cars coming out 90% of the time and nothing at this particular time, there are also no pedestrians at the crossing. As you approach your light changes to red, you nip onto the curb at the crossing - taking the turning to the left hence crossing the path of no traffic, use a 10m stretch of pavement and re-join the road with 0 risk of the being a car approaching from behind as you could see the whole of the junction as you approached.

Police siren goes off, you carry on, figuring they are going after someone who did somehting far more serious, so you carry on regardless till you realise they are following you (not sure that would count as resiting arrest but might count as failing to stop if they got shirty with you).

The theoretical junction is Gilbert road/Histon road in Cambridge (heading into Cambridge) for anyone who wants to check it on street view or who knows it.

I know it's still breking the law, but surely it's a soft break rather than a £700 fine crime, as people on here have pointed out before - you could pay less for ending a life.

Could be an over the top Police description of the situation.

Molgrips - and you are breaking the law and pissing off the car drivers whilst doing so.

Either red light jumping is defensible or it is not. You cannot have your cake and eat it.

I can't believe that even if every cyclist in the country suddenly started obeying all the rules, the council would provide a proper, safe cycle route.

I don't either but it wont hurt the case

Most of the people who make the decisions for funding are likely to be car drivers & if all they see is - what looks like a - a load of gung-ho riding, they may be less likely to treat us favourably

probably already been said but, if the government and local authorities invested more on cycle paths and more cycle friendly roads we would not have this problem in the first place.

probably already been said but, if the government and local authorities invested more on cycle paths and more cycle friendly roads we would not have this problem in the first place.

Mmm, and if the majority of car driving people saw their council tax money being frittered away on these morons who won't drive, they'd get annoyed.

Democracy strikes again.

Molgrips - and you are breaking the law and pissing off the car drivers whilst doing so.

I pull to the front (slowly and carefully) and then stop, waiting for green. I've actually had drivers congratulating me on waiting for green. I don't think I am pissing anyone off.

Only you would consider waiting just over the line to be as bad as blitzing through the entire junction at speed.

And only you would call careful and considerate going thru a red light as "blitzing through the entire junction at speed."

Going over the stop line is the same offence as going thru a red light - as that is what it is. Going to the front of a line of cars often pisses them off.

Just bought the paper in question so a few more facts to add..
£700 fine plus £215 costs.
Convicted in absence at local magistrate court.
Offence - junction of Dyke road and old shoreham road, about 11:15pm ignored a red light, bunny hopped onto pavement while riding without lights.
The officers tried to flag him down which he ignored and only stopped when they blocked his path and flashed their blues. No mention of any other behaviour.
Bicycle group saying fine was harsh, ROSPA saying cycling causes lots of accidents, police saying the public keep complaining and they will be repsonding to that.
Think the last comment is the factor here..
J.

Oh ans this was on the front page.
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/8094859.Family_of_Portslade_victim_slam_death_crash_driver_s_sentence/

Spot on, cant stand cyclists who go trhough reds, cycle on pavements etc.

Going over the stop line is the same offence as going thru a red light

Going through the junction on red, no matter how carefully, is way worse than crossing the line by a couple of meters - anyone can see that, as do most motorists in my view. It also pisses drivers off much more.

Jerome

That front page story is shocking. Two kids now without a Dad who's death was caused by someone who probably shouldn't have been in this country and certainly should not have been driving. I'm not surprised the widow is angry at the sentence.

Sometimes I despair 😥

should have been faster , wouldn't have got caught then. but no i dont agree with jumping reds

so molgrips - some types of red light jumping are worse than others - is that what you are saying?

Sentencing has to serve a purpose, not just make people feel better.

And TJ - yes, obviously.

Right - so you think its OK for you to jump a red light then? As that is what you are doing. But its not OK for me to do so to avoid a dangerous situation?

One observation of mine is that the biggest RLJers are often the cyclists that are most enthusiastic and vocal about cyclepaths. And vice-versa.
Its as if what cyclepaths there are have created a generation of riders who have no ability to ride legally on the road, and they always fall back on the old chestnut "but its not safe/suicide to ride on the road"
Bollox!
Frankly the guy in the story cannie really complain, but I'd be interested to hear of how comparable the fine would be in a similar motoring offence (aside from the points).

Frankly the guy in the story cannie really complain, but I'd be interested to hear of how comparable the fine would be in a similar motoring offence (aside from the points).

Failing to stop [car etc.] is up to level 5 fine [£5000]

Yeah, but its the 'up to' bit thats the clincher.
Causing death while driving can result in an 'up to' 14 years inside, but lots of drivers walk away with a 500 quid fine.
(and often their license intact)

Depends, TJ - do you continue to ride through the junction and on your merry way whilst everyone else has to wait?

There are a small number of junctions where I cross on red as it is safer for me to do so than to wait for the green. this is done carefully and is no detriment to anyone else.

I think you are being hypocritical. What you are doing is red light jumping by crossing the stop line when on red.

Are the fines still means tested?

What you are doing is red light jumping by crossing the stop line when on red.

You think there's no difference between waiting 1m across the line and sailing through a red light and carrying on with your journey?

From a motorists point of view, creeping over the stopline is wrong and illegal, if cars did it they would be in trouble. There's simply no need if you take the proper road position, and it may get you in the way of pedestrians crossing at that point and puts you legally in the wrong in the case of an accident. Creeping over the line just puts you 1-2m ahead of the traffic meaning you clear the junction before they overtake you - fine, but if you'd take your rightful place in the middle of the lane they wouldn't pass you either, until you pulled over to let them past.

Not legally no there isn't. Both are against the law.

[url= http://www.****/news/article-398901/Fury-driver-killed-cyclists-fined-180.html ]Remember the Rhyl 4[/url]

No defence for the RLJ cock, but then there is no defence for cyclists generally apparently !

Not legally no there isn't. Both are against the law

But morally there is. Also practically, since you would never get picked up for crossing the line by 1m.

Your point is?

but if you'd take your rightful place in the middle of the lane they wouldn't pass you either

In order to do that you'd have to wait in the queue of traffic. You are allowed to move up to the front. So it's either wedge your way in between two cars or sit infront of the line.

The whole point (for me at least) is not how leniently would a driver have been treated in the same situation, but is it fair to expect Cyclists as a group of Road users to obey the Law? The simple answer is yes, it’s far easier to effect change from the moral high ground than, a position of “I only break the law because it’s crap” just doesn’t wash when you reverse the argument and apply it to drivers it has to cut both ways…

The fact is he wasn’t in a car he was on a bike and has contributed to the increasingly poor image of urban cyclists; he deserves to be £915 out of pocket…

Come on.
Its not like he bumped into anybody..
😆

Offence - junction of Dyke road and old shoreham road, about 11:15pm ignored a red light, bunny hopped onto pavement while riding without lights.

I just hope I can still do half decent bunny hops, in the dark when i'm 53 😀

TandemJeremy - Member
The big fine is not for the red light jumping - its for failure to stop

+1 and the other 'offences'.

The rider can't have been paying that much attention not to see a uniformed officer and police car/van (assumed the PO was not 'on the beat').