[Closed] 650B Freight Train

I could see people buying a 29er or 650 frame sometime and just cobbling along with 26 wheels for a bit before replacing them

Pretty sure that'd be easier with a 650 frame as the BB wouldn't actually be dragging alog in the mud, rather just above it

Anyhow - SSable fatbike frame likely next for me, with a spare set of wheels to take "normal" tyres (I reckon 29ers or 650 would probably fit that
(on-one's vertical dropouts - 👿 )

thebikechain - Member

My perspective is that my wheel size is not to blame for 'poor' riding skills. It is mainly my brain.
Yes, 26" wheels may fall into holes that 27.5/29" would roll better over but in the majority of cases it is never the equipment holding someone back.

It baffles me at times that people seem to get so worked up about wheel size. It's a small improvement, it rolls over stuff better. Bike manufacturers make small improvements all the time, and lots of them mean new standards that don't work with old stuff.

Wheel size seems to bring with it a whole other logic. You hear people who criticise full suss bikes for smoothing out the trail, but champion 29ers because they roll over stuff better. I don't know why it has such a polarising effect - it's just another way of realizing certain benefits, no different to extra travel or lighter or longer or whatever.

It's a small improvement. Won't be enough for me to buy new frame, forks, wheels and tyres for, but it's valid.

Wrecker just stated he does not like 29ers but will give a 650 a go

It baffles me at times that people seem to get so worked up about wheel size. It's a small improvement

Having spoken to a well known Endurance racer whose, done back to back timed and tested laps he's now running 650 on his bikes as they worked out to be the best option for his use.

Yes there's nowt wrong with 26" wheel but they were pretty much chosen arbitrarily, 30 odd years ago some geezer in California had a bunch of 26" rims in his garage and hey presto industry standard. A rigid 29er sounds cool wouldn't mind one, 650 sounds a reasonable middle ground. however the "industry" fully jumping on the 29er bandwagon then a couple years later saying "no no 29 is too big, 650b is where it's at", well for a cynical sod like me it's pretty hard to view that as anything other than just a marketing tool.

What could be happening though is that LBSs are telling manufacturers that stocking tyres, rims, forks and frames in 3 sizes is a headache they don't want to deal with, and that a choice of 3 sizes would also deter new customers. I think manufacturers would listen because they rely on the LBSs to get their product in front of the public.

And if enough people buy into BWAMF, then 26 has gotta go.

But 26 aficionados have nothing to worry about because there will be second hand and remnants slopping about for years, and someone will serve the market if it's big enough too.

Besides which it seems to me that 650b is really just "26 and a bit", so the confirmed 26 riders will probably be happy with it anyway when they try it.

(Personally I'm a 29 convert and don't care either way, but that's not the question here).

"I'd like to show you our new 650b saddle line"

fukken loled

thisisnotaspoon - Member

But then most new frames are tapered (or 1.5, or 44mm, etc), and while some people upgrade forks, they must be a smaller number than those buying new for a new build, and that must be many times smaller than the OEM market. And forks seem to have reached a level of reliability where the last as long as frames (and in the case of RS and Fox you can upgrade the internals cost effectively).

I know. My point was that it is happening, I understand why. My point was that big manufacturers will drop 26" in a similar way, and quite soon, because most new bikes will be 650 or 29.

but in the majority of cases it is never the equipment holding someone back.

what happens when he races on a completely different course next week?

I think he'll have tested it elsewhere too and is in a fairly good position to make a judgement call on what will work best for him for stage racing and Endurance events 😉

It's all just bikes and opinions anyway, what works for him probably wouldn't suit me being 2 ft taller and 5 stone heavier, ride what you like. 😀

Fashion.... Weirdly the 140mm Cham with 26" wheels and 3x9 that i ride is now niche. won't buy a 29" they just look wrong and ugly, and I really don't care to know the pluses/ minuses about them.

The Americans have never really got the LTHT concept, and I understand that's the biggest impact on the sales and marketing of mtbs but as long as I can get bits, that's what I'll ride.

Loco I was half* joking 🙂

*if he [i]did[/i] only test on one course my point still stands 🙂

[quote=nickc ]Fashion.... Weirdly the 140mm Cham with 26" wheels and 3x9 that i ride is now niche. ....

The Americans have never really got the LTHT concept,
🙄

DONK, hence the cover all 😉

I eaten now so have slightly more sense of humour 😉

Incidentally he's using 26" fox forks with the 650 wheels and a low profile tyre which we prepped 😀

nickc - Member
Fashion.... won't buy a 29" they just look wrong and ugly, and I really don't care to know the pluses/ minuses about them

So you make your judgement on 29ers entirely on how they look? Fashion, even?

Don't know what all the fuss is about.
Here's my latest, one old Prophet frame, because they can take a tapered fork and worked with adjustable geometry. Add one 27.5" rear wheel and stick on the front end from my Yelli Screamy (take under 10mins)I now have a FS 140mm front and rear travel bike with a very similar geo to my Yelli (which is a fantastic bike)Short chain stay and slack 67* HA and short wheel base. Ok the BB is a bit high but with the saddle down in trail mode the bike is riding bloody fantastic. Total build £500. Its a keeper.
[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

I know. My point was that it is happening, I understand why. My point was that big manufacturers will drop 26" in a similar way, and quite soon, because most new bikes will be 650 or 29.

Except forks/frames are one off items you buy then possibly never replace.

Tyres get replaced every few months, there'll be a market for them for years.

Rims get replaced less often, but then mavic hasn't changed it rim line up since the early 90's so I can't seem them ceasing production of 26" rims anytime soon.

Yes, entirely my point, it's just fashion. Few years ago the bike I rode was mainstream, now it's not. Few years time 29" will be as well, and something else will take over. Might even go full circle back to riser stems and flat bars....

Yes, entirely my point, it's just fashion.

No it's not.

Ok, it's not. It's just amazing co incidence that this time it's wheels. As opposed to oh I dunno..... Handlebars, stems, brakes, numbers of gears, suspension, dropper posts,etc etc etc ad neaseum

What can I say. I rode 26ers for years. I rode a 29er and I liked it and I don't ride 26ers any more.

Fashion has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Great, happy for you. What made you try it? Mag review? friends tell you? Bike shop recommendation? You fancied a new frame/ bike?

You don't have to justify it to me, but at least be honest with yourself

What made you try it? (it = 29ers)

in my case, i was curious, and it made a lot of sense*.

unlike 650b and 15mm axles.

i'm a balding engineer with a beard, there is nothing remotely fashionable about me, or anything i do.

(*really can't see any downsides, but there are a few benefits)

I rode a 29er and I liked it

Same here.

Fashion had nothing to do with it, or marketing. I wasn't even looking for a new bike particularly, there was just an opportunity to try one and it was just so much better (for me and my riding). It (and 650B) are no more a manufacturing conspiracy than suspension, disc brakes or gears. Its progress, you choose to buy into it or not. I couldn't care less about 10 speed as I ride single speed but I'm not bothered that 10 speed might limit my options in the future.

26" was an arbitary choice that became the accepted standard. 29" has demonstrated to the industry that we (mountain bikers) are actually prepared to consider changing to a wheel size that suits our riding, so more options are available as in suspension, brakes etc. Expecting there to be only one wheel size is like expecting everyone to have the same travel fork.

Great, happy for you. What made you try it?

You fancied a new frame/ bike?

Yep,

tried some little wheels, some big wheels, some steel, some carbon,

Steel 29er won. 650b might have I don't know.

thisisnotaspoon - Member

That's like arguing that removing 1kg from a bike is pointless and you may as well take a shit.

Missing the point much? My wheel/tyre combo is already the size of the average 650b wheel/tyre combo, and it makes bugger all difference compared to when I use smaller tyres.

I think that's the key difference between 29er and 650b- users can recreate it with what they already have and go "hmm- bugger all difference, let's not spend a fortune on changing all our wheels, tyres, tubes, forks and bikes".

Which is why if it's going to happen, it'll be stick not carrot.

[url= http://www.shedfire.com/2012/10/03/650b-hub-set/ ]650b hubset[/url]

I think that's the key difference between 29er and 650b- users can recreate it with what they already have and go "hmm- bugger all difference, let's not spend a fortune on changing all our wheels, tyres, tubes, forks and bikes".

Then why not compare the 26" + big tyres to 650b + big tyres? Taking your example one step further, a fat bike has 29" wheels using 26" rims, but you wouldn't try one and write off 29ers.

There's no comparison at all between a fat bike and a 29er, they're too different, so that doesn't make a lot of sense does it?

Great, happy for you. What made you try it? Mag review? friends tell you? Bike shop recommendation? You fancied a new frame/ bike?

You don't have to justify it to me, but at least be honest with yourself

A friend turned up on our regular ride on a 29er, I was curious, I tried it and I liked it. Because of that I booked a demo through a shop, rode it about 60 miles over 3 rides and still liked it. So I bought it.

At no point am I trying to justify it to you. What I am saying though, quite clearly, is that your statement [i]"it's just fashion"[/i] is nonsense.

they do get tetchy some of these folks don't they?

i'm a balding engineer with a beard

ah so it's not just [i]not-fashion[/i], it's actually [i]anti-fashion[/i]

and what could an engineer possibly know about bikes, anyway?

There's no comparison at all between a fat bike and a 29er, they're too different, so that doesn't make a lot of sense does it?

One point of view is this: If you are a bike manufacturer, there is significant competition in the market, and one of the biggest companies(Specialized) makes a risky move by fully committing to the 29er market, by changing their entire portfolio of bikes.

What better way to put potentially knock a big player out of the market completely, by null and voiding the whole 29er story, by driving the 650 story?

I heard that a while ago and there's some sense in it, true or not I have no idea, prob not quite. It would be a gamble on either side though and you'd only take sides if you'd had some riding time on the wheels you were backing and really thought they were an advantage. I mean, slacker bikes are popular so making a load of 72 HA bikes for market advantage and point-of-difference might seem daft, but waiting till a few people saw 'slack' as 'floppy and lifeless' and tightening things up a bit may not be so risky. So I don't think it's about null-voiding 29", just deflating it a little.

For some types of bike maybe I'd rather not have 29" wheels, yet once you've ridden them enough you do think 'there's something nice about a bigger wheel.. but for this, maybe not quite that big..' and there you are.. 650B takes off after 29" wheels opened it all up because the difference was so obvious.

[b][u]Northwind[/u][/b] It's the pissant no-sense compromise-til-most-of-the-benefit's-lost-but-without-removing-the-drawbacks ****'s option. And therefore will probably succeed, like 15mm axles.

I like your style Sir. Succinct and to the point.

[i]What I am saying though, quite clearly, is that your statement "it's just fashion" is nonsense.[/i]

pffft whatever.

I mean, what's the chances of a large bike manufacturer making a bike in their 2012 product range that suits almost to a tee the sort of riding you and your friends finding yourself doing more and more...What an amazing co-incidence... You must be stoked

I've got all 3 sizes and ride all of them. The 26" is the least used! 650 is great for racing as it has most of the rolling benefits of a 29er but the wheels and tyres are a lot (400g) lighter. The 29ers are brilliant as trail bikes as the big wheels help keep momentum. I've never liked full suspension bikes (cheating and also the squat/squish), so a 29er is perfect for trail centres etc for me.

Now there is a choice of tyres as well, 650b looks like a top choice.

GB

[quote=nickc ]
I mean, what's the chances of a large bike manufacturer making a bike in their 2012 product range that suits almost to a tee the sort of riding you and your friends finding yourself doing more and more...What an amazing co-incidence... You must be stoked
It's as likely as them making a bike in any other year that suits "almost to a tee" what me and my friends are doing. As has been pointed out already, there was no science behind the selection of 26" as a wheel size, it's just that folk previously had to accept its limitations and drawbacks as they had little choice.

meanwhile at the bike dept of Mega Corp...

Marketing guru 1: What are Mountian bikers doing these days?
Marketing guru 2: Oh, strava, endomo, sharing long distance, enduro kind of stuff, all about the fitness, roadies doing mountain biking , mountain bikers buying roadie bikes
Guru 1: Are our bikes good for that sort of thing?
Guru2 not really, but there's these guys out west building "29ers"
Guru1 sounds cool, can we get on that?
Guru2: Already on it, got SRAM, and fox signed up
Guru1: Excellent, right that's bikes, what's new in surfing?

One thing for sure there ae lots of bargain 26" bikes out there for xmas 🙂

thisisnotaspoon - Member

Counter that with:
There's no comparison at all between a 26er with fat tyres and 650b, they're too different, so that doesn't make a lot of sense does it?

But that's obviously not the case, so.

meanwhile at the bike dept of Mega Corp...

Marketing guru 1: What are Mountian bikers doing these days?
Marketing guru 2: Oh, strava, endomo, sharing long distance, enduro kind of stuff, all about the fitness, roadies doing mountain biking , mountain bikers buying roadie bikes
Guru 1: Are our bikes good for that sort of thing?
Guru2 not really, but there's these guys out west building "29ers"
Guru1 sounds cool, can we get on that?
Guru2: Already on it, got SRAM, and fox signed up
Guru1: Excellent, right that's bikes, what's new in surfing?

They don't do they??

The bastards!!

Seriously what's the problem? and what bike do you ride? 140mm trail bike with a dropper post??

Back in 2006 at the bike dept of Mega Corp...

Marketing guru 1: What are Mountian bikers doing these days?
Marketing guru 2: trail centres kind of stuff, all about the gnarr, brown pow, MX Boys doing mountain biking ,
Guru 1: Are our bikes good for that sort of thing?
Guru2 not really, but there's these guys out west building "all mountain bikes"
Guru1 sounds cool, can we get on that?
Guru2: Already on it, got SRAM, and fox signed up
Guru1: Excellent, right that's bikes, what's new in surfing?

36 is where its at.

[img] [/img]

the "only using 26" rims because they were available" story doesn't wash with me, if gary fisher knew back in the 70's that 29ers were some kind of all conquering god wheel why did it take 30 years for him to start making suitable frames?

I can see the 650b taking off think its envy who have dropped 26" out there 2013 range. There are also a few companies making DH bikes with 650b on and an pro rider who rides the us tour is riding them next year. I also hear that peaty is testing an v10 with 650b, if someone as big as peaty decides its better it will take off big time. I see 26" in the future just being for jump bikes and some DH bikes. My new Norco Range with 650b lands at the end of jan so I will be in a better position to comment then when I have ridden it. Good thing is if I don't like it I can still stick my 26" back on it.

on the 26" thing, why did bontrager re-roll ma40's rather than try and get someone to make tyres instead?