I'm used to getting buffeted about by vehicles on the road, like a bit of flotsam on a rough sea, but I had a particularly 'interesting', roundabout orientated ride yesterday (I don't drive and am completely cycle based).
The first was at a mini-roundabout which was clear when I entered it, travelling directly across. The exit to my left curves gently into my intended exit and drivers seem to think that they can shoot around this seemingly ignoring the fact that it's part of a roundabout and there's a junction in the way (this isn't the first time). There was a sudden squeal of brakes as a white transit van hit the junction directly to my left as I was exiting the roundabout. To be fair I didn't get the horn blowing and shouting I expected.
Roundabout two was a proper big one with dual entrance & exit lanes; I was fairly central in the left lane approaching the junction, the right hand lane was full traffic. A small white van came up alongside me (on my right) traveling between the lanes if traffic and then took a hard left as it passed. Fortunately I didn't see red and slowed to let him get clear otherwise I'd have probably been side-swiped.
It was the third one that really shook me up. This was again a mini-roundabout; I was stopped at the junction signalling to go right. the right hand lane was directly to my right. I let the vehicle enter the roundabout and could see another approaching be judged that I had plenty of time and filtered in behind the first vehicle. The next thing I know is a large white van bearing down on me from the right, horn blaring with the incandescent driver gesticulating wildly; in the heat of the moment I'm afraid I raised the middle finger (and then spent the rest of the day worrying about it). The only way I can put the van where it was, in my mind, was if went directly for his exit, at about 2 O'clock to his entrance point, by taking as short a route as possible & driving over (or possibly undercutting) the mini-roundabout; I suspect that this was his intention from the off as there was no traffic entering the roundabout from that exit (he wouldn't be the first driver I'd seen pulling similar maneuvers). It quite unnerved me.
So, common denominators, well me of course (I did my Cycling Proficiency Test about forty years ago and that's it) and roundabouts - oh and white commercial vans (hmm, maybe something in this).
Despite being the biggest Jessie going I'd be the first to admit that I do have a bit of an attitude/anger problem when I consider myself to have been mistreated on the roads and I probably need to calm down (I've fished out an old copy of Cyclecraft that I never got around to reading) and tend to be defensive of my position and right of way but equally have no problems recognising others' right of way and deferring to this.
I need to keep thinking that nothing's worth getting hit or in a fist fight for, but the alternative approach is to tug one's forelock and cycle entirely subserviently to motorised traffic which just re-enforces their 'entitlement' to ignore bikes.
At roundabouts you're supposed to give way to traffic coming from the right. I may have read it wrong but it sounds like you didn't on the third roundabout.
Mini roundabouts are ignored by 90% of drivers.
Work on the basis that everyone is out to kill you, assume they will always do they very thing you hope they won't and then you should be fine.
In the fist example you gave you mentioned that this has happened before, perhaps you need to predict things a bit better? I find eyeballing drivers makes a big difference.
I totally recognise the anger / attitude thing you describe, been there myself. Just remember that you have to be alive to win an argument.....
Quite a few drivers around here think they have the right to enter a mini roundabout without reducing their speed at all, regardless of other traffic. By the sounds of it, White Van Man plotted a course to accelerate across the roundabout behind the other driver but didn't allow for one extra bike length, which meant he momentarily had to lift off, and maybe even touch the brake. Horrible for him.
You should be ashamed of yourself. 🙂
Well he did if the third driver was using the round about rather than going over it........ You know our need to slow down to go round then not use it like your driving test general Lee and jumping over cyclists.
Equally once op on round about and in position. He (the van) should filter in. Not sound his horn like he's driving a freight liner that cannot stop within 5 miles.
Van driver was a ****. Unfortunately riding and hell driving on the roads these days means assuming all drivers are ****s.
At roundabouts you’re supposed to give way to traffic coming from the right. I may have read it wrong but it sounds like you didn’t on the third roundabout.
Yes, I am aware of this and was stopped at the roundabout to allow the vehicle on my right, that reached his junction at the same point as I reached mine, to enter the roundabout. The doubtful bit is I suppose whether I should have waited for the vehicle approaching the right hand entrance but I deemed that there was ample time for me to filter in behind the first vehicle before before the second entered. I think I assumed that the driver would filter in behind me and all 3 off us would circled the roundabout and exit easily. It all happened a bit quickly to be sure but I'm pretty sure that the second driver went straight for his exit by going over (over undercutting) the roundabout rather than going round it. It is possible that I goofed but that's not how I recall it.
I did check the Highway Code when I got back and it does say to give way to vehicles [u]approaching[/u] from the right, but that's a little vague and I still feel that if there's time to safely enter (assuming that everyone behaves considerately) that that should be fine.
assuming that everyone behaves considerately
That was your first mistake.
from your description I think it's a bad week. Maybe the sun's got to them.
1. sounds like that's a layout that encourages 'short cuts' in the sweeping lane you describe.
2. possibly aim to take primary (i.e. outer wheel track of cars), rather than lane centre to prevent the illusion of a space, but sounds like you did the right thing
3. not quite sure I understand the layout, 'give way to traffic from the right' but also it's give way to traffic already on the roundabout - sounds to me like van man was coming through regardless.
I learned recently that at mini roundabouts you are indeed supposed to go round. I had previously been convinced that I was taught that you could go over the paint. I don't know if that's a change in the rules or lack of knowledge on my part - but a similar misunderstanding could have led to the situation in number 3.
I don't subscribe to the subservient notion, but there is a difference between confidence and aggression.
In a car, you look to your right to give way. On a bike, you need to look EVERYWHERE, down every exit as you approach it, even if you have right of way, because you always need to be aware that someone might not have seen you. I saw a chap nearly get knocked off at a three way mini roundabout as he checked to his right, turned right, and missed the car speeding from his left that hadn't seen him. The car didn't slow down, so it was obvious to me a couple of car-lengths back that it wasn't going to stop.
Some tips - look at the driver's face. If he or she hasn't seen you, be prepared to stop. Also, human brains are highly sensitive to picking out other faces, so by sitting up and making eye contact, I think you make yourself more noticeable.
Also look at the cars as they approach. You can tell if they are planning to slow down or not, and also be prepared to stop. I have to stop on small roundabouts like this now and then, every few months or so.
You're not 'supposed' to go over a mini roundabout, they should be designed to deflect traffic around them, but the reason they are painted on rather than a formally constructed roundabout is that they are generally put into small junctions, to allow flow of traffic, where a proper roundabout would not fit. Painting them on the road allows larger vehicle to trail over them if need be. Unfortunately lots of drivers don't really understand them.
Number 1 - people tend to approach these roundabouts too quickly, with the assumption that they will be clear & a mistaken belief that if they approach them without slowing down, then everything else in the vicinity has to get out of the way. Sounds like the van was taking this approach and had to do a bit of emergency braking to avoid hitting you - his fault.
Number 2 - many people would rather use the wrong lanes & cut in to gain themselves 5 seconds even if it inconveniences everyone else. Not your fault
Number 3 - not really clear, but sounds like an element of number 1 coming into play, depending on how far from the roundabout the van was at the point you joined. If the van was virtually upon it, then you probably should have waited. If however he was some distance away, but approaching at speed then he was at fault & is a dick.
PJay, be thankful you don't have this on your commute.
Fortunately I didn’t see red and slowed to let him get clear otherwise I’d have probably been side-swiped.
Lots of people at bad at driving, getting angry at them is a waste of energy.
Work on the assumption everyone is a muppet and it’s a good starting point.
Mini roundabouts are a nightmare, most people dont know how they work and can easily get confused. On my bike and motorbike I tend to er on the side of caution and give way to everyone unless they have directly looked at me or signalled to me...its a pain in the arse but there you go.
3. You assumed that the driver would slow down and negotiate the roundabout in a controlled and civilised manner. The driver assumed that his path would remain clear of hazards.
Likely only one of you will die if either of you get these assumptions badly wrong.
Incident 1 sounds like bad engineering (Streetview link for the curious?) which encourages fast entry and probably also leads to visibility issues requiring drivers to be diligent in looking around the A-pillar and/or the B-pillar and over their shoulder. Nothing much you can do there other than keep your wits about you and anticipate people not looking properly. (And maybe to let the local authority know about the issue.)
Incident 2 sounds like an aggressive doglobber behind the wheel. Again, nothing much you can do other than keep your wits about you and anticipate people being doglobbers. (And maybe to get them on camera and inform plod.)
Incident 3 is impossible to tell from the description. Certainly sounds like the driver may have been entering the roundabout at an inappropriate speed (and behaving like an aggressive doglobber after doing so), but it may also be that you made a misjudgement. A couple of points worth noting: by the letter (rather than the spirit) of the law, driving across the central white circle is (unless "impracticable to do so") an offence; moving onto the roundabout such that anyone approaching from the right has to brake or swerve is also an offence. The exact definition of "approaching" is unclear; it may be that it relates to vehicles on the section of carriageway to which you are giving way (ie on the area immediately around the central marking, which is separated from adjoining roads by give way lines; in other words already on the roundabout) or it may be that it relates to vehicles approaching the whole junction (ie including the adjoining roads).
Strict interpretation of offences aside, there's some degree of pragmatism required: for example, clearly in some cases it's possible for Driver A to approach a roundabout so quickly that Driver B may enter it having underestimated the Driver A's speed and/or inclination to slow down, or without even having been able to Driver A at all, with Driver A having to brake due to their own vastly excessive approach speed. (For them to continue to do so in the knowledge that Driver B—or Rider B in this case—is already on the roundabout ahead of them may itself constitute another offence.)
In any case, the prudent course of action is of course: keep your wits about you and anticipate people being doglobbers again. (And maybe recalibrate your own estimations of others' approach speeds. My advice: look at the gap between the front wheel and the wheel arch, it'll tell you everything about what the driver's *actually* doing.)
None of this advice to keep your wits about you is a statement that you're doing things wrongly, or that these incidents aren't partially or wholly someone else's fault; and when you're on a bike there really is only so much you can do: whatever defensive strategies people recommend, they all start opening up other (hopefully lesser) risks. You can and should look back at each incident and develop your own way of reading cues and reaching decisions, but there is simply no reliable way of avoiding incidents like these. The best you can hope for is to restrict others' propensity to make them happen, without ending up expanding their propensity to cause other problems.
The bottom line here, though, is that almost all roundabouts are inherently problematic for pedal cycles.
Roundabout usage, especially but not exclusively by motor vehicles, has been awful for a long time in my experience regardless of whether they are "mini" or normal ones with a proper raised central island.
Far too many road users don't slow down enough on the approach to their give way line (some roundabouts with history now have barriers on the ~30m or so approach, so you in theory need to slow down to then be sure it's safe just as you reach the line).
Far too many don't indicate properly.
A worrying amount of users don't even know (or choose to ignore) the whole policy of give way to your right when entering a roundabout!
In these days of impatience, when I very rarely enter a big multi-lane roundabout, I really don't like staying on the outside lane indicating right if I plan to go more than half way around it because I expect some muppet on the inside lane to not realise what the cyclist is doing.
Streetview link for the curious?
Actually it doesn't look quite as I described when looking down on it with [url= https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Cheddar/ @51.2792608,-2.7744947,104m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x48721c2a434414a3:0x8a018193890c6599!8m2!3d51.280164!4d-2.7767019]Google Maps[/url] although there are clearly some visibility issues there (both of our views would have been hindered by the trees). I entered the roundabout from the bottom of the picture & the van from the left; we met as I was passing his junction line to exit the roundabout. Both my entrance and exit are in Cliff Street and it looks to me as if a standard T Junction might have been a better option instead of a roundabout.
The highway code statement of "give priority to traffic approaching from your right" in rule 185 is written with a 'proper' large roundabout in mind, i.e. anything coming from your right is already on the r/b.
The addendum for mini roundabouts in rule 188 basically says 'treat them like normal r/bs', and from that I would assume you only need to give way to vehicles that have already crossed their give way lines.
So, yeah:
No.1 wasn't paying attention but managed not to take you out
No.2 was an inconsiderate arse
No.3 was in the wrong
All three...
White Van
probably all driven by a man.
its why I quit road bikes. motorists either dont see you, dont care, or misjudge how fast the cyclist is going & get their timing wrong.
its irritating, but i just learnt alternative routes to avoid the worst traffic sections, even if the route was longer
sweaty gammon in hot tin vans do not make patient drivers
Some tips – look at the driver’s face. If he or she hasn’t seen you, be prepared to stop.
I'd be very cautious about this approach - you can't safely assume that someone has seen you just because their face is pointing in your direction (see that frequently posted thing written by a fast jet pilot about how the human brain filters its visual inputs and can completely miss moving things that are in the field of vision).
I always assume that a driver hasn't seen me, unless it's unambiguously apparent that they have, a face turned in my direction doesn't give me that assurance though.
None of this advice to keep your wits about you is a statement that you’re doing things wrongly, or that these incidents aren’t partially or wholly someone else’s fault
Totally this - on a bike where the other protagonists are in fast moving metal boxes, discretion is very much the better course... no one wants their dying words to be "but I had priority!"
where the other protagonists are in fast moving metal boxes, discretion is very much the better course
Pragmatically, and in terms of making one's own decisions, this is 100% of truth.
However, there's a tangential point worth making in that this can be over-laboured: for example, people who cycle with kids on the road (whether in seats, trailers, trailer bikes, cargo bikes or whatever) regularly get criticism for subjecting their kids to risk, but if we all stuck rigidly to the "other people are in fast moving metal boxes, so it's best not to be in their way" philosophy, all we'd get is lots more fast moving metal boxes in the road carrying slightly fatter people to the same places.
It's a bit like…
https://www.portsmouthctc.org.uk/a-fighter-pilots-guide-to-surviving-on-the-roads/
Here is a link to most of the fighter pilots article really good reading, understanding weaknesses allows you plan and act to mitigate them.
Mini roundabouts are poorly understood, and poorly adhered to as their primary purpose seems to be to slow people down, and people generally want to get where they're going with a minimum of slowing down.
They are also too small to allow priority to always be given.
On the first one, it seems like poor understanding from traffic is the issue. On the second mini roundabout, a combination of your assumption that people will go around the roundabout (which they should really, but many don't) and perhaps there wasn't really space for you to pull out anyway, and the van's cutting the corner. All you can do about it is be cautious, knowing these are risks, have a plan for when these things happen/slow down/wait as necessary.
The second roundabout - these things happen, some people are complete idiots and can't possibly wait behind Schrodinger's cyclist who is simultaneously far too slow to ever not overtake, even around a quarter of a roundabout, and too fast to be safe around pedestrians. You can place yourself more assertively, but you can't ever fully avoid that sort of behavior, just make sure you're aware of what's going on.
I was (in my van) last week and followed a car onto a roundabout, at the exit I was going to take I could see a guy crossing the road on his bike. There was plenty of time for him to cross, and then I noticed the car in front of me actually SPEED UP!! then slam on his brakes, beeping his horn, gesticulating etc at the guy with the bike. Unbelievable....
Reminds me of this.
At roundabouts you’re supposed to give way to traffic coming from the right. I may have read it wrong but it sounds like you didn’t on the third roundabout.
Due to how much faster a car can be, it's easy for you to enter a roundabout with plenty of space, then a driver enter it later but at a much higher speed, and they then perceive you to be "in their way".
I'm not sure how you get round this, short of euthanising them.