29" wheels make lifting the front end harder, so really depends what you want out of a bike. I personally would see no benefit going 29 only disadvantages.
I want to buy a 24" to better my skills on a mountain bike.
Anyhow 29" are heavier rims, tubes, tyres, rotational weight etc.
I've got a rigid 29er, although don't score too highly on the STW niche-o-meter as its got gears.
It was eye-opening as to how much better to ride it was than my old 26" bike.
Then the new-bike-itis wore off.
🙁
It is different, my 29er feels a bit taller, and does roll over some things better, but on a normal, reasonably mixed off-road ride I don't think there's that much difference. Maybe if you were riding a DH track repeatedly or on some very specific terrain you'd really have a preference. Like needing a fatbike for sand dunes or something.
Tyre pressure and how knackered you feel is probably more noticeable TBH.
I'd probably buy a 29er next time, mostly so I only have to have one lot of innertubes, but not because it's loads better.
It is different, my 29er feels a bit taller
Strange, the bottom bracket is lower in relation to the hubs on almost all 29ers.
the whole rolling resistance thing seems to be widely misunderstood...
My take on it is that a larger wheel rolls better 'over obstacles' due to reduced angle of attack and relative size of wheel versus obstacle.
But I dont think there is less rolling resistance, if anything the opposite might be true. The longer contact patch of a larger wheel (at the same pressure) means more casing deformation than a smaller wheel (wider and shorter contact patch) and thus more rolling resistance than the smaller wheel.
The longer contact patch is also what gives the increased lateral grip as the contact patch is elongated, but not actually any bigger (pressure being equal remember).
Anyway, I'm still researching and thinking about the math at the moment...
In the real world it comes down to where you ride and over what, and the tyre you're running as to which factor has the biggest influence.
Strange, the bottom bracket is lower in relation to the hubs on almost all 29ers.
Sorry, I meant the front end feels taller.
Which I appreciate I could remedy with some flat bars and a lower stem, so is entirely due to my laziness as opposed to some part of 29er v 26er geometry.
But rolling resistance is a function of carcass deformation; bigger carcass, less deformation.
Anyway, can anyone quantify the differences, or is this new bike effect?
But rolling resistance is a function of carcass deformation; bigger carcass, less deformation
But if you think about he deformation at the contact patch (which is where it counts in this case) is it still not more due to the extra length?
Think about the 'roundness' of the wheel for want of a better term, at the same pressure, with tyres of the same width the contact patch of the 26er and the 29er are the same area, but the 26er is wider and the 29er longer, meaning the 29er wheel is 'less round'
In rolling forwards the deformation of the carcass acts over the length of the contact patch, meaning the carcass has to deform less on the smaller wheel as it moves round the tyre as it rotates.
ie: you're 'flattening' the wheel less on the 26er.
The difference may be so small than it is overcome by the other factors like the increased diameter. I just brought it up due to the 'they roll better' phrase always being used but people also complaining of 29er wheels feeling draggier at times.
on another note, funny how we've had people in this thread saying '26ers will stay for places like trail centres', but other people saying '29ers are better at trail centres' just goes to show it's probably more about where and how *you* ride than the wheels you're doing it on.
The theory seems all very well, but surely it comes down to testing? I demo-ed 6 bikes on the same trail, one after the other. The 26/29 split was 50/50 and were rode singletrack of differing degrees of steepness, the odd jump, some fast sections, and some rooty and some gnarly sections. For me one set stood out as being much better than the other - and isn't that all that matters?
Larger wheels, in fact larger tyres on the same wheel have less RR than smaller ones. I think you are mistaken.
grum - MemberInterestingly, I think there's still only one of the '29er evangelists' who has answered the question about 650b.
I don't think you've heard any evangelising from me.
It does strike me as a little odd how you always pop up on these threads even though you have no intention of owning a 29er.
Or so you say. 😆
I think you're protesting a little too much. 😉
Anyway, can anyone quantify the difference between 26 and 29ers?
can anyone quantify the difference
Yes it's 3. 🙂
Larger wheels, in fact larger tyres on the same wheel have less RR than smaller ones. I think you are mistaken.
That exactly what I mean, going on the understanding that a larger tyre on the same wheel does have less RR, and a wider contact patch, and less carcass deformation than it's smaller, longer patched cousin, how does that relate to the same size (width and height) tyre on a different diameter wheel?
Does the increased air volume mean that there is less deformation overall, or is it still mostly dominated by local deformation at the contact patch?
I may well be mistaken, hence the discussion, as I said it seems to be widely misunderstood as lots of people talking about about it without defining what they mean.
Anyway, can anyone quantify the differences, or is this new bike effect?
In my case, it was new bike syndrome.
Who here can wheelie a 29" ?
on roughly the same theme then, Trials riders....
back in the good old days you had 20inch trial bikes and 26inch trials bikes.
Now a lot of people use 24 inch, especially for street, are they little wheelers migrating up, or big wheelers migrating down?
Do they get the same levels of scorn from both sides?
Well I can wheelie a road bike and a cross bike, but I suspect that opens a whole new can of worms.
I would genuinely be interested in a scientific appreciation of the change in wheel size and the effect that it has, and the real world effect if that is different.
So far people seem to be saying that 29ers are betterer but without any kind of back up, is there any?
Charlie posted up an interesting graph thing that showed the different angles that different sized wheels aproached square edge bumps at.
I too can wheelie most things.
It's the sign of a misspent youth. 🙂
[i]Charlie posted up an interesting graph thing that showed the different angles that different sized wheels aproached square edge bumps at.[/i]
Is that not intimately dependent on the size of said bumps?
Charlie posted up an interesting graph thing that showed the different angles that different sized wheels aproached square edge bumps at.
Sounds fascinating, does he do kids parties?
crikey.
Yes but it gives a good visualisation from wheel size to wheelsize.
No idea grim why not ask him.
Charlie posted up an interesting graph thing that showed the different angles that different sized wheels aproached square edge bumps at.Sounds fascinating, does he do kids parties?
Doesn't it,it would also make a nice picture for the lounge......... 8)
My opinion is based solely on:-
How I ride, where I ride, when I ride.
I'm old enough to know what works for me. 😉
it would also make a nice picture for the lounge
Christmas isn't that far away.
Maybe ask for a copy in a nice hardwood frame as a present. 😉
i've not trawled through the plethora of replies as it's time in my life I won't get back, but, happy to be shot down in flames if this has already been suggested.....
Surely this whole post is a case of 'any PR is good PR' for the bike monger???? Is this an effort to keep a business in the public domain for free instead of paying a fee like the other businesses do as it's quite clearly an attempt to publicise a business.....
for the record, I have a Genesis Race and pro 29er.....
I can't wheelie for a Wethers Original me, but then why would I want to do that.
Bit daft wheelies.
Unless you a called Chorlton of course.
Then, we'll then they'll essential.
geordiemick00 - I think that's a little unfair to CTBM. The mods won't let business folk have a personal AND a business logon so any "thoughts" Charlie might have will always appear under his business logon.
A lot of folk like me will go riding a bit later and not give a thingy about the size of their wheels. Away from the keyboard and in the mud the only thing we wish we had were Nick Craigs legs.
When the time comes and I need a new bike and there are more 29ers on the market, then that'll be the day I buy one (or the third one in my case) until now the 26" job I have is doing just fine.
Unless any 29er makers want to offer a trade in?
Have my eye on a XTC Carbon 29er of the Dale Flash.
Singlespeed_Shep - Member
Interestingly, I think there's still only one of the '29er evangelists' who has answered the question about 650b.
If the bikes looks nice I personally wouldn't rule it out, but 29" works for me, the XL frames look normal. [b]so why go backwards.[/b]
How the hell is not riding something that feels wrong to you going backwards!!!! 🙄
I've said it before and I'll say it again... A 29r is NOT designed for riding proper technical stuff, sure u could probly do it but it would feel wrong compared to a 26r, and before anyone pipes up with videos of free riders riding 29rs, they are getting paid to advertise it!!! ! There is a wide variation of "mountain biking" from xc to dirt jumping all having different geometrys and sizes, and a 29r fits in the cyclecross categories!
Everyone can ride what they want, I'm fine with that, but what's pissing me off is the fact that in years to come I'm going to be struggling to find bits for my 26r! All because people like ****in niche!!
But 29er isn't niche. In the fullness of time, the fact that so many folk were sold 26ers will seem a bit odd.
A 29r is NOT designed for riding proper technical stuff
Nor is a light weight race bike with 26" wheels.
Maybe you could moan about those too. 🙂
But 29er isn't niche. In the fullness of time, the fact that so many folk were sold 26ers will seem a bit odd.
Either that, or people will come to their senses, just like they did with URT 🙂
How the hell is not riding something that feels wrong to you going backwards!!!
WTF are you really retarded or trolling??
I have found something better and I don't really want to go back to what wasn't as good. I wouldn't rule it out but am much happier with big wheels for how they ride, where I ride them and how they look.
And stop banging on about what 29er's where designed for, The whole 26" came across by chance. Not all 29ers are uber light race bikes same as 26ers
Either that, or people will come to their senses, just like they did with URT
what's milk got to do with it?
A 29r is NOT designed for riding proper technical stuff, sure u could probably do it but it would feel wrong compared to a 26r
So, by your logic, all 26ers ride the same, be they xc hardtails or freeride bikes?
Have you ridden many 29ers? Anything from Canfield, Kona Honzo, 2Souls SlimJim?
I know 29er are not better, but there are different ones... 😉
I'm not sure I agree Pussywillow. I've ridden my 29er fs 'trail' bike on DH trails and through a reasonable set of dirt jumps that I normally ride on my 26er jump bike. These days there are nearly as many variations of 29er as there are 26ers. Don't be fooled into thinking they're all XC race machines.
I've said it before and I'll say it again... A 29r is NOT designed for riding proper technical stuff
By technical riding, do you mean technical, natural terrain or technical as in booters and gaps?
I'd say a 29er is very good at natural technical from experience, i'd also say a 29er for booters and gaps is a bit rubbish for stylin and finesse and agree with you totally. But for getting average joe to leave the floor on the average trail centre bump, they're more than adequate and their inherent stability would aid in composure in the air.
WTF are you really retarded or trolling??
Bit of both maybe but I'd lean towards trolling.
what about nice tight and very techy natural stuff?
So....
I'm asking in a spirit of enquiry, can anyone tell us the actual advantages of 29ers?
Pinhead - excellent in my experience. I think the handling of my 130mm 29er is better than the 150mm 26er of the same make and model it replaced, especially on tech stuff.
I'm asking in a spirit of enquiry, can anyone tell us the actual advantages of 29ers?
its a choice, some people don't like choice.
adstick - Member
Pinhead - excellent in my experience. I think the handling of my 130mm 29er is better than the 150mm 26er of the same make and model it replaced, especially on tech stuff.
POSTED 4 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
No offence lad, but can u explain what u call tech????
crikey.
What [b]I[/b] find the advantages are for [b]me[/b]
I feel just as confident on my Tallboy LTc as i do on my Nomad while descending* but it climbs faster, get's better grip on techy climbs and is faster on the flat.
*In certain situations more so.
I've been around long enough to know what [b]i[/b] want from a bike and the larger wheel suits me.
Why be so Fukin insulting??? This is my opinion and it's geeky fukers like u that do me head in!
Good I'm pleased 😆 I can't belive how much those 3 inches really piss you off.
You have your opinion and so does everyone else, or is that not ok with you?
get over yourself and go ride a bike.
For me it's better grip and tyre 'feel', with more stable handling. By stable I mean not twitchy rather than slow.
Pinhead - excellent in my experience. I think the handling of my 130mm 29er is better than the 150mm 26er of the same make and model it replaced, especially on tech stuff.
What did you get Adam? And what was the 150mm 26er? Also, I'm trying to remember how tall you are - do you agree with the '29ers are better for taller people' thing?
No offence lad, but can u explain what u call tech????
I would say he is reasonably handy on a bike.
But what are the actual measurable advantages?
I'm pushing the point because people seem sure that the change in wheel size is significant, but is it about a new bike? Or is it about an expected difference?
Is it placebo or is it a real advantage?
Measurable advantages aren't relevent to me as i'm not a racer.
It's just "feels" nicer/ more stable/ better to me.
grum - Member
Pinhead - excellent in my experience. I think the handling of my 130mm 29er is better than the 150mm 26er of the same make and model it replaced, especially on tech stuff.
What did you get Adam? And what was the 150mm 26er? Also, I'm trying to remember how tall you are - do you agree with the '29ers are better for taller people' thing?
No offence lad, but can u explain what u call tech????
[b]I would say he is reasonably handy on a bike.[/b]
POSTED 2 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
And what would u call reasonably handy rider??
Steep Tight and technical riding has no place for a delicate 29r!
its a choice, some people don't like their choice being deemed obsolete and implied as inferior by zealots and marketing keen to drive a consumer industry with a new standard that entails buying an entire bike when there's nothing wrong with the old ones.
FTFY.
I dont mind choice. SSStu has tried the available choices and likes the newer offering. Others have tried it and found it wanting (one riding buddy sold his 29er within a few months, another riding buddy loves em). I have no desire or need to try it as I am happy with my current choice, whether it was arrived at by accident or design. If and when I am next in the market for a full bike I'll consider whats available at the price I want to pay, for the sort of bike I want to ride, regardless of wheel size, manufacturer, country of origin or paint job. I'll judge the bikes on their merits.
The overwhelming majority of MTBs sold in the US are 29er, and most US riders laugh at the very idea of a heavy steel hardtail with a long travel fork as being a nonsensical combination of all the worst atrributes of a bike, which is the UK/STW staple.
To answer the OP, some of us are cynical enough to judge all changes in standards (8 speed worked better for longer in adverse conditions than 10 speed, square taper BBs lasted longer than ISIS/HT2 etc ad nauseum) as driving consumerism and take the performance increase claims of marketing men employed to sell them with a pinch of salt. We'll leave the early adopters to sort out all the beta testing and let the market settle (seen how cheap 1.5" forks are now as no one wants them) before we commit our hard-earned cash.
Grum - It's a carbon stumpjumper with fox 34s. Very very impressed with it despite being a bit of a cynic for a long time. It's just so much fun, very confident and flattering. I'm not a total convert though, if I wasn't lucky enough to have a big bike and a jump bike as well as my regular mtb I'd still have one 26 bike I think.
Youll have to have a go. We're probably going to be up at your bro's at New year...
I have about 50 million 26er tyres in the garage, and 4 sets of nice 26er wheels. I reckon 29ers can have some advantages but I'm yet to ride one that's good enough to make me want to make all that change. Or for that matter, to deal with not being able to stick the wheels and tyres off my DH bike into the trailbike for a trip to the alps, or to swap the wheels off the trailbike onto the XC bike because its wheels are dinged, or whatever.
So in short- same as any other development, the benefits of change need to outweigh the costs of change, and they don't even come close IMO. But people's situations vary
currently riding a carbon fibre Stumpjumper Expert 29'er hard tail with 100mm Fox 32 forks, 1 x 10 gearing, short stem and 750mm bars
simple bike, easy to clean and minimal maintenance
very nice for trail riding, no complaints about 'handling' from me?
actually a very precise handling bike on steep and tight terrain
very good for climbing technical terrain, and goes like lightning down the hills
it also seems to deal with snow and mud very well, with 2.2" Specialized Purgatory tires, plenty of clearance and floats on the soft ground where my 26" bikes used to get bogged down
was very surprised after hearing all the bad press on 29'er
sold the 26", and bought the 29er without testing to find out what all this bad press was about?
It seems that no one can answer the question, and I am beginning to assume that there aren't actually any serious advantages to the 29er format.
Lets have one more go; what performance improvements can I expect if I go 29?
I did!
"For me it's better grip and tyre 'feel', with more stable handling."
Ok, ok, but can you analyse it a bit more?
Could the same effect come from a longer wheelbase for example? Or from bigger softer tyres?
I fitted some electronic measuring and timing gear to my 29er bike and the results were precisely
7.1% faster
3.25% more efficient
50% less ****y
You should try one... 😀 see for yourself
But that would make me minus ****iness in performance terms; I'm not sure how being un****y would sit; I might end up being so un****y that I got ****y again.
I need science answers!11
Ok! Something to do with the longer contact patch and a larger volume of air in the tyres makes them feel more like 26 DH tyres, but with the advantage of being on a much lighter and more nimble bike. I'm sure the wheelbase helps, which is weird since I thought I liked very short chainstays but after a little 'retiming' it doesn't bother me....
But that would make me minus ****iness in performance terms; I'm not sure how being un****y would sit; I might end up being so un****y that I got ****y again.
No it wouldn't, you'd just be 50% less ****y than now...
As for 29ers, it's only a bike.. just try one and see...
My head hurts now.
A 29er would cure that...
crikey - I'm a reluctant convert. It all started when I fitted some knobblies to my tourer for a bit of "cross" action. What I noticed was that the bigger wheel ran over some trail obstacles more smoothly and without having so much of an impact on forward momentum. From that, I decided to take a punt on a full-blown 29er and I've not been disappointed. I dunno if that helps?
SS Stu has a big pot belly. That is all.
it's a wok!
TheSwede - MemberSS Stu has a big [s]pot[/s] bell[s]y[/s]end. That is all.
Ok, ok, but can you analyse it a bit more?
Could the same effect come from a longer wheelbase for example? Or from bigger softer tyres?
Tyre aspect - 29er tyre vs 26 tyre, everything identical, the 29 will have more grip. You can do two things, keep everything the same, reap more grip or go for a slicker 29er tyre, maintain equivalent grip but get better rolling resistance. I cant put numbers on it, i was a 100% cynic before i tried a 29er, the traction i could get on xc tyres was up there with 26 DH tyres.
Keeping momentum - a 29 will lose less momentum when hitting a bump than 26, so will keep more speed in bumpy situations, also helps out in steep tech with edges.
Accelerating - i was expecting acceleration to be rubbish on a 29er, i was wrong. Acceleration was no problem, plus i kept my speed better.
Handling -
I'd say your typical xc 29er handles more like a 26er hardcore hardtail (which STW loves). The wheelbase is longer, this gives stability.
The tyre trail (google it, the distance between the steering axis and contact patch) is larger than on a 26er, it sort of causes the same feeling as a slacker HA, builds in stability, much like a hardcore hardtail.
BB height makes a massive impact, you know how everyone wants slacker and lower, you can have the lower cake and eat it as it were on a 29er. What stops the bb getting too low on a 26 trail/xc bike is pedal strikes, on a 29er you can have the bb lower in relation to the wheel axles, this adds stability and security. It really installs confidence.
In a direct answer to your post, a 29er hardtail handles to me like a slack and stable 160mm bike with a big wheelbase and long chainstay, like a nukeproof mega for example, but without any hint of front end wander on climbs. Rolls faster, more efficient, more grip, more composed in technical terrain than a equivalent 26er hardtail.
To make a 26er 29er you'd need a ragley blue pig, cut out the bb, mount it lower, add a motor cos you cant now pedal, some pixie dust to stop the front end wandering on climbs then some magic 26er tyres which roll faster and grip better, maybe add in an inch or two of suspension that isn't really there to help momentum in the rough.
After a couple of years sans mountain bike, I'm thinking about either resurrecting my Klein Attitude or buying new.
I've no problem with buying a 29er, but I'd really like to know why they offer advantages over 26ers.
I suppose the problem is complicated by me not really liking suspension; I can manage forks, but I tried a full susser and never really got on with it; I'm a bit old school and would rather get battered/go slower on some bits than squish all day on a heavier bike.
How about trying a few out for yourself then.
Had the same 26er for years and am building a new 29er purely for something different. I'm not sure if it'll be better or worse but I'm excited to find out. I think making comparisons is a hard one and you have to ride lots of different bikes to get a good idea. Even between two or ten 26ers you will get loads of variation in how they ride, whether they are great decenders or climbers etc. So comparing two wheel sizes on two very different equipped bikes is even harder. What would be interesting would be to have two bikes with the same equipment on (except the obvious change in wheel size) and see how much difference there really is. Would we see what claimed that 29ers roll better and 26ers are better on twist stuff?
www.followingthechainline.blogspot.com
Bigger wheels roll better. In that, for any given bump the angle at which the tyre hits is shallower, resulting in less retarding force.
Extrapolate - imagine a cobbled street. Bumpy to ride a bike along. If you had a giant wheel 10m across, it wouldn't feel the cobbles. If you were on rollerskates, you'd be on your face.
Ok it's a small difference in this case but it's noticeable, on a bike you feel every newton of retarding force. Hardtail MTBs with 23mm tyres on are nothing like as quick as road bikes.
How about trying a few out for yourself then.
Aye, if you're in the market for a new bike then why wouldn't you?
Grum - It's a carbon stumpjumper with fox 34s. Very very impressed with it despite being a bit of a cynic for a long time. It's just so much fun, very confident and flattering. I'm not a total convert though, if I wasn't lucky enough to have a big bike and a jump bike as well as my regular mtb I'd still have one 26 bike I think.Youll have to have a go. We're probably going to be up at your bro's at New year...
Yeah wouldn't mind a go, sounds pretty sweet 🙂 Not sure yet if we're going snowboarding at New Year but if not it would be good to hook up for some biking. You should try and stop off and do some in the Lakes as well.
resulting in less retarding force.
We could definitely use that round here.
Hardtail MTBs with 23mm tyres on are nothing like as quick as road bikes.
Hmmm...
I started off riding an MTB on 23mm slicks, and I would agree that they are not as quick, but this adds little to the debate. I'm also aware of the bigger wheels go over the same size bumps quicker thing.
But again, no one has provided anything even approaching evidence that the 29er thing is an actual improvement. Given that the 26er MTB is a tried and tested and familiar concept to me, how's about some actual science that shows it to be so?
Can I duplicate the effect with a longer wheel base 26er?
Can I duplicate the effect with a bigger fork?
Can I duplicate the effect with a longer wheel base and a bigger fork and bigger tyres?
Why do I keep asking the same question and getting jeff all in reply?
I've ridden a cross bike for 2 years while my mountain bike gathers dust; it's not proved to be the equivalent.
Why do I keep asking the same question
Just go out and try a few different bikes instead then.
It's the only way to really know if you like it or not.
What's to lose?
Have to agree with the 29er evangelists here 😉 - if you're thinking about a new bike and are curious about 29ers surely the answer is to try riding some.
Given that the 26er MTB is a tried and tested and familiar concept to me, how's about some actual science that shows it to be so?
Who cares what science says?
But again, no one has provided anything even approaching evidence that the 29er thing is an actual improvement.
You've accepted that there's less rolling resistance with bigger wheels - don't you think that's an improvement?
What a load of old c**t this thread has become....crashtest above was close, I have friends in America and Canada, 2 of them ex DH factory riders and believe me the same argument does happen in North America too....Everyone rides different bikes for different reasons and yes 29ers are more common out there....My own take from listening to varying views is that if you're vertically challenged/totally gnarr-core 26ers are the staple...Taller bloke that rides wheels on ground/XC 29er ftw, mix and match that as you will, every size, height, rider, location, want, need, style, desire is different....Analyse what you want from your riding, what kind of riding you do, then make your choice...It's all bikes, it's all riding, it's supposed to be fun....keep arguing tho 🙄
grum.
You sound like the 29er evangelist now.
I suggested he
8)try a few different [b]bikes[/b]
Oh I'm totally onboard now adstick has got one - 26ers are soooo lame. I don't understand how people can actually ride those things. Urghhh! 🙂