[Closed] 29 vs 27.5 vs 27.5+? DH vs Trail? It's all here courtesy of Soho Bikes TV...

Well that was a lot of fun. It suffers from the same problems that all these tests do for me though. First they are not remotely scientific, but more importantly for me, they start with the false premise that all that matters is how fast you get down the hill. Mind you, I think all that proves is that I'm not really a mountain biker.

I'd say given the nature of the wobbly pink thing at the controls on a bike, it's very hard to be scientific. For a properly scientific test, you need to remove all the variables except the one you are testing. Unfortunately humans tire, they are inconsistent and make mistakes or just have bad days. I'd say this was as scientific as you're likely to get, given the likes of Steve Peat, Tracey Moseley et al have made their livings from being as consistent as possible time after time. The telling thing for me here is that Tracey Moseley did 6 full runs, having pedalled back up 4 times, where Chris Porter was destroyed and had been using the uplift each time! And he's the one that hates 29ers... 😆

Could the test have been improved? Of course it could... You'd take Schurter, Absalon, Richie Rude, Greg Callaghan, Aaron Gwin and Gee Atherton along for a start, and I'd pick a track where the course is a little more varied than 50 shades is too, and have segment split times, to better highlight the differences in the bikes.

I found it interesting though. To see the reactions of some of the guys riding different wheel sizes for the first time, and to see how a grumpy old man who's set in his ways responds too. Perhaps the biggest shock though was Peaty saying he felt quicker on his trail bike and that his DH bike felt harder work (50 shades if you've not ridden it, is rocky but it's not steep at all) yet the clock showed he was much quicker on his DH bike! Most other riders times were closer between bikes.

they start with the false premise that all that matters is how fast you get down the hill

Given its a test of enduro bikes it's not the biggest surprise that's what they go for.

I quite enjoyed it really. Thought it was a bit of a shame they left the girls quiet apart from Tracey though.

I think rider fatigue and getting to know the track made a huge chunk of difference

thepodge - Member

I think rider fatigue and getting to know the track made a huge chunk of difference

Yeah, for these tests you need to blank the rider after each run.

Easier said than done

Thanks for sharing. Enjoyed that.

Never before has 'ride and decide' been so fitting for choosing your mtb as now IMHO.

There were a lot of names riffed off of people who were faster on their 27.5 bikes as well, weren't there?

4 faster on 27.5 and 5 faster on 29. Not enough to really call it? Is it 😀 Considering all sorts of other factors come into play including fatigue and bike setup.

yeah good vid.

Pressures on the b+ seemed high. Necessary for the track perhaps. I run closer to 12-15 in Surrey. We don't have long rocky black runs though.

Never before has 'ride and decide' been so fitting for choosing your mtb as now IMHO.

Mate of mine is looking for a new high end trail bike right now. It's a bewildering choice.

TBF, I loved the fact that the B+ bikes were ripped apart in the that video.

The bounceyness, tyre roll and thin sidewalls are all issues that I felt they had.

Glad to see they got the shitting on they deserve by decent riders instead of mincing/ageing/golfing/audi driving bike journos.

That Chris Porter is a cheerless .... isn't he, seems unable to accept any opinion other than his own.

I enjoyed that/found it interesting...

Having spent quite a lot of time of a Krampus I can say that in a rigid format + tyres are ace, but really don't see the point of them on a full susser.

Even then the amount of tyre roll you get when you push a 29x3 EXO chronicle hard into a corner is alarming.

Moseley is a f***** beast! (I mean that as a compliment!)

I think they also need a mid pack benchmark rider

All those folk are getting the best out of anything and push it to the limits

Would be interesting to see how big an impact technology plays under a flat average mildly unfit rider. Bigger gaps at the technology trumps talent, or smaller as the rider is the limit...

mincing/ageing/golfing/audi driving bike journos.

Really enjoyed that never been a great fan of Rob Warner but he's beginning to grow on me but like that facial fuzz of his 🙂 decent real world test ..good work

I quite enjoyed it really. Thought it was a bit of a shame they left the girls quiet apart from Tracey though.

With Steve Peat and Rob Warner in the room, anyone else had to fight to get heard! 😆 To be fair, Tracy isn't scared to jump in and have her say, and I think that she's the one girl that's universally respected even by the most chauvenistic of male racers.

Moseley is a f***** beast! (I mean that as a compliment!)

She's as professional an athlete as they come in any sport, she takes having fun very seriously if that makes sense. More than that though, she's switched disciplines having won pretty much everything going in DH many times over, and totally dominated EWS ever since its inception. She's 37 now and showing no signs of slowing up either! That said, Peaty ain't doing bad for an old boy, pretty much the only guy that came anywhere near his times was the one that built the track (Rowan Sorrell)!

I think rider fatigue and getting to know the track made a huge chunk of difference

That's why you will never get a true scientific test whilst humans are involved in piloting the bikes. Get enough data points (hundreds, preferably thousands) from the same riders on the same track on the same bikes, and you'll start to be able to paint a pretty true picture, but it's never going to be truly scientific.

4 faster on 27.5 and 5 faster on 29. Not enough to really call it? Is it Considering all sorts of other factors come into play including fatigue and bike setup.

Quite... Familiarity is going to have a play in it too. The whole point, reinforced largely by what Tracy said, is that different wheel sizes suit different riders based upon their personal preferences. At 5ft4, most people would say she's too short to rider a 29er, but clearly she's capable of riding one at a level far beyond the majority of riders. And then you have Chris Porter who's over 6ft tall so by rights should be full of the benefits of 29ers, but openly dislikes them!

Mate of mine is looking for a new high end trail bike right now. It's a bewildering choice.

High end you say? There can only be one... Give him my phone number, we can talk! 😉

TBF, I loved the fact that the B+ bikes were ripped apart in the that video.

The bounceyness, tyre roll and thin sidewalls are all issues that I felt they had.

Glad to see they got the shitting on they deserve by decent riders instead of mincing/ageing/golfing/audi driving bike journos.

I was expecting them to get a lot more of a slating than they did. Clearly, there are some advantages, but there are a lot of downsides too. On rocky or hardpacked terrain, plus tyres will at least grip well, but in the softer more natural trails, they will float over the top right when you need a tyre to dig in. Then there's the fact that to make a 3" tyre as sturdy as a decent 2.35" it's going to weight a LOT more. Then like they say, there's the dodgy "rebound" effect. And... And... I can see for slower trail centre riders, newbies and people wanting more confidence on tamer trails, they'll be superb. For the harder riders, they're just too fragile and inconsistent to be taken at all seriously. Loved it when they were ripping the proverbial out of Dan Critchlow from Burgtec, I know Dan he's a top lad, he's a hard rider too so doesn't surprise me he killed a tyre on the + bike at all...

That Chris Porter is a cheerless .... isn't he, seems unable to accept any opinion other than his own.

You think? 😉

I've never met him, but I'm told by those who have, that he's even more miserable and opinionated than he came across in this video! Still... He can afford to be... Good luck to him.

Would be interesting to see how big an impact technology plays under a flat average mildly unfit rider. Bigger gaps at the technology trumps talent, or smaller as the rider is the limit...

Normally, technology and equipment has a bigger effect the more mediocre the rider, so I would expect that us Joe Bloggs types would experience bigger variance in times when riding bikes that we weren't used to or that weren't our preference. Which is why I was surprised Steve Peat was so much faster on his DH rig than his trail bike.

Phil has it! *waves* I enjoyed that but couldn't help thinking if you are aiming this at the 'average' bike buying rider then those are the people you want riding & testing. I guess ' we the people' don't make for such engaging telly 😉

Pressures on the b+ seemed high. Necessary for the track perhaps. I run closer to 12-15 in Surrey. We don't have long rocky black runs though.

50 Shades at BPW is a monster though, sharp edged rocks and boulders all over the place. Ran about 35psi rear and 30 front in 2.35" tyres last time I was there, and still bottomed the tyres out on the rim occasionally. My normal pressures for trail centres would be 26F/32R by contrast.

never been a great fan of Rob Warner

Get out, go, be gone! Warner is a ledge - never quite made it big, but part of MTB history for me -and some of his commentary's...

I thought it was a great video. I liked listening to Tracey Moselys explanation of the differences. To be honest by her description an enduro spec 29er would probably suit my riding style. I love my xc 29er....got me thinking and looking at the bloody jeffsy or whatever it's called now!

i thought this confirmed that for most normal do a bit of everything riders, a 29'er is a good choice - if they are competitive on this sort of track, combined with advantages on more pedally stuff / uphill / mud and slop, they make a great all rounder

Thanks. As an aside its an excellent shop run by good guys who stock Cotic 🙂

Cool little video. More entertaining than a bunch of riders having a chat should be. Hardly surprising that the outcome was 'ride what you find most fun' though - isn't that what we all do anyway?

And for me, Chris Porter came across fine. Maybe that makes me a miserable bugger too?

Hi! 🙂

I suspect...

Someone like my Mrs would roll along happily at the same speed on any of the bikes. She stated this, by the way. She's not into pushing it in any way (although did do 8 runs of Pleney in a day on a hardtail once!) but just enjoys being on a bike

I'm a decent descender (raced DH on the same team as DC for a few years, him Elite, me back in mid pack age group, making up the numbers and doing words/pictures) but lack any real speed or skills. I suspect I'd still brake early, miss lines, bottle jumps and smash into stuff on any bike until I really put the time in to learn it. Might even be initially slower then slowly unlock the potential. A recent shock change then move from 26 to 650b shows this, on Strava anyway.

These guys are pushing the limit and using all the bike, so exploiting all grip available but getting the biggest rewards.

That's just my theory, would be great to have a clock on a wide range of ability and see if there's a sweet spot. The 'industry' might not like it though 😀

At the end of the day Tracey nails it for me, pure speed is fun but I also like skids and my new bike is loads of fun, my ear to ear grin is the only measure I need even if Strava isn't telling me it's faster!

i thought this confirmed that for most normal do a bit of everything riders, a 29'er is a good choice

yeah that was my takeaway too, (and augments my confirmation bias). 29er for a trail bike or a proper DH bike for proper DH. in real life most rides are mostly pedally and most of us are not as skilled as that crew. 26.9 seems a bit pointless. that's probably unfair, lickler wheels mean more travel options without building a monster truck frame.

High end you say? There can only be one... Give him my phone number, we can talk!

he's been told, I think he wants to find his own long way around back to the right answer I gave him on day 1.

Very interesting! I've always liked Chris Porter's contentious opinion pieces but he's didn't seem too happy when bigger wheels were looking faster. I do wonder though if the bigger wheels' advantage comes from them not falling into the holes created by smaller wheels, and that if everyone was on bigger wheels that mismatch between trail erosion and tyre would vanish?

I think the biggest deal for any rider is feeling confident on the bike, which I would say comes down to tyres and geometry first (geometry matters more when it's fast or steep, tyres matter more when it's slippery) and suspension second. And once that's sorted you can do tyre diameter optimising...

Yeah that was very interesting, as a test obviously lots of variables, major one seems to be that especially with the racers that any runs later in the day will be faster, even with fatigue they will be hitting them better each time.
I wonder if they could sort the tyre issues out with 650+ that things could be better.
Glad they choose 50shades as its defo the best trail there but still relatively straight.
Which feeds on to the 650/29er debate, I read the results the other way, 650b the most fun option for the average trail rider but for out and out racers 29 is best.
That said I have a 650b Enduro race bike and a 29er trail bike !
I love both but ultimately the 29er can be a bit boring and the lack of pop and my inability to get it off the ground really robs the fun out of it for me.
I just wish I could justify a DH bike, they are so worth it for big terrain.
Also was Peaty subtley slagging off his Bronson at the start ?

Also was Peaty subtley slagging off his Bronson at the start ?

That was my take on it.

Original video was good to watch.

I thought that the video below was very good at systematically comparing 27.5+ and 29 (don't shoot the messenger!)

[edit ^ For a given rider / requirement]

Bit random testing to be conclusive, getting hold of a 29er and 650b enduro, and maybe a stumpy 6fattie to test would have been better. Riding your own bike then riding a 29er for the first time isn't ideal. Was a decent bit of entertainment but what struck me was how so many riders had formed pretty strong opinions, often without riding different wheel sizes.

what struck me was how so many riders had formed pretty strong opinions, often without riding different wheel sizes.

Well on here I expect it, thought proper riders might be more open minded though. 😆

Downhill mountain biking (and presumably Enduro as well) looks, on the face of it, to be a pure sport and all about who is the fastest to the bottom. In fact, image is every bit as important as time (see, for example, the ban on skinsuits). If 29ers or plus-size bikes aren't seen by the opinion formers of the sport to be acceptable then it doesn't really matter if they are faster and anyway, there is a huge amount of confirmation bias with these "tests" i.e. if you don't want to like a 29er you'll probably be slower on it. Which just perpetuates the myths. It's all just a bit of fun though.

Chris Porter seems to be up for trying new stuff, just look at the Geometron! I just don't get why he has such a bee in his bonnet about 19mm of extra wheel radius?
It's almost like he dismissed them originally (like a lot of us) but can't bring himself to go back on what he said.

Also was Peaty subtley slagging off his Bronson at the start ?

I thought he'd just had an unfortunate choice of words that could have been construed that way, which Warner kind of picked up on and gave him a mischievous look and then they were both trying not to laugh.

I was under the impression he normally rode a 29er trail bike BTW

i.e. if you don't want to like a 29er you'll probably be slower on it.

There were at least two riders who had never ridden 29ers but were quicker on them

I'm fairly sure Warner has an Anthem as his normal trail bike.

Get out, go, be gone! Warner is a ledge - never quite made it big, but part of MTB history for me -and some of his commentary's...

Warner is a top bloke who had no end of time/patience giving my brother and me useful tips when we were younger.

He did use to like waking everyone up on the race campsites by razing his moto around though. 😀

Downhill mountain biking (and presumably Enduro as well) looks, on the face of it, to be a pure sport and all about who is the fastest to the bottom. In fact, image is every bit as important as time (see, for example, the ban on skinsuits). If 29ers or plus-size bikes aren't seen by the opinion formers of the sport to be acceptable then it doesn't really matter if they are faster and anyway, there is a huge amount of confirmation bias with these "tests" i.e. if you don't want to like a 29er you'll probably be slower on it. Which just perpetuates the myths. It's all just a bit of fun though.

Opinion formers? Most of the people who push new shit down our throats are journos!

These are racers, and there was jack shit to differentiate the 29ers and 27.5 bikes....but like everyone guessed....the plus bikes are clearly not suited to racing/hard riding.

jabbi - Member

It's almost like he dismissed them originally (like a lot of us) but can't bring himself to go back on what he said.

It's exactly that tbh. He keeps coming out with pseudoscience nonsense to justify it, like, apparently more BB drop is great on a 26er or 650b but on a 29er it makes the brakes stop working. TBH his opinions are always worth listening to but he seems to be one of those people that isn't happy just having opinions, he wants them to be Facts. And he ends up undermining himself in the process. See: clutch mechs/chainless, as your perfect example.

Chris Porter seems to be up for trying new stuff, just look at the Geometron!

That's not Chris Porter trying new things... That's Chris Porter finally finding someone to work with him and bring his vision to a commercial fruition. Fair play to the guy, he's got his opinions. Some of them I agree with, some I take with a pinch of salt, and some I downright disagree with, but my opinions have been formed from an open mind trying out various different things for myself. Chris Porter's opinion is that what works for him should work for everyone else, and that he is not to be questioned!

Chris Porter is entertaining.

That Chris Porter is a cheerless .... isn't he, seems unable to accept any opinion other than his own.

A little interaction I had with him some (many) years ago when the paint/coating on my Fox talas was bubbling & fell off within the space of a week:

CP "people like you always moan about the look of thing and ignore the function" (having never met me or spoken to me before).
Me "eh? I look after my stuff and ignoring how something functions, the way it looks is important to me"

CP "it doesn't matter how something looks, it's the functions that counts"

Me "how can I trust the product if a fundamental part is well below standard? How do I know that it's been put together right when they can't even coat the things right?"

CP "people like you always say things like that. Why don't you just go out and ride the things instead of polishing it?"

Me "you've never met me; I'd love to ride my brand new bike but all the paint just fell off the forks, which I don't think is right, given its a week old"

CP "so, what you going to do, paste this conversation all over the Internet? People like you (again - never met me) shouldn't have bikes; they're functional things and it doesn't matter what they look like."

Me "just fix the ****ing forks"

CP "click....."

The man is a ****.

[url= http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/article/are-27-5-wheels-and-tyres-better-than-29ers-47047/ ]Seb at Bike Radar had a slighty more scientific look at 27.5+ vs 29ers[/url]. It's an interesting read and I know Seb doesn't hang about on his bike.

Entertaining video too.

Good watch that.
Basically confirms what I've always wanted. A short travel (110-120 rear) 29fs would be my perfect race (enduro) bike. Unfortunately I (like most) cannot afford a race bike and so use my all round race bike/trail bike/fun bike for enduro race duties. It's slower, and I know that, but it's more fun and versatile (well in a fun kind of way)

And I'm glad that 650+ didn't do too well. To me, it seems an in between, average, excel at nothing kind of bike. For the man that needs n+1. I'm glad because I don't want to change 🙂

Is anyone else desperate to see a big name DH rider aboard a DH bike with 29er wheels? If we seem to be coming to a vague consensus that 29 is probably a bit quicker, then wouldn't that hold true for DH bikes too? I know Trek have a prototype and can't help feeling 29 would suit someone Gee's size...

I think the key phrase on the b+ judgement was "not competitive". Under a world class rider racing for time down a black run, they offered no advantages.

I ran b+ on my 29er HT through the winter, it was a great way to add a little float to a stiff frame, smooths out trailcrap on the climbs and roots on the descents. I think it was faster, but if it wasn't, it was still "nicer".

I've yet to ride a b+FS so the jury's out on that one for me.

And one of my mates runs a 29+ Stache, he adores it and is anything but slow.

It's not really conclusive enough to form a decent opinion either way between the 2 main wheel sizes, IMO.

That said, I only have a big 160mm bike at the moment so am on the lookout for a short travel 29" trail bike (Smuggler).

I don't expect it to be any faster in reality, but I do expect it to me more lively and fun on the local stuff.

I will race it on occasion too, so should be interesting to compare 🙂

The plus bikes seem (and look) utterly pointless to me.

Chris Porter seems to be up for trying new stuff, just look at the Geometron! I just don't get why he has such a bee in his bonnet about 19mm of extra wheel radius?
It's almost like he dismissed them originally (like a lot of us) but can't bring himself to go back on what he said.

He thinks the wheels are too flexy (he's right - they are flexier for the same spec and build quality) and that you can't "pump" them through terrain (he's right-ish, you can pump them but it requires bigger undulations in the trails).

He also thinks that big wheels make suspension performance worse.
[url= http://www.mbr.co.uk/news/bike_news/size-matters-part-3-bicycle-geometry-sucks-324160 ]http://www.mbr.co.uk/news/bike_news/size-matters-part-3-bicycle-geometry-sucks-324160[/url]

Chris Porter might be a bit blinkered but he's got a lot of good ideas in there.

I think what this video also showed is the old men weren't really interested but the younger generation were doing more runs and tried more stuff.

Great video and getting 100+ runs in over that range of riders is a great base.
Overall T-Mo nails it, pick waht you like and what works for you. Myself I've got an XC 29r, trail/Enduro 26 and a DH bike. Next bike to be replaced is the trail/enduro bike - no idea what wheels it will have.

On the + stuff, I think the telling thing is regardless of benefits the rubber isn't good enough for riding tough trails. To only get 3 completed runs in says a lot and why I've got no interest in them at the moment. In terms of grip if I can make my 29x2.2" Ardent races grip when I need them and my 26x2.4" Minions grab the trail "extra grip" at the expense of more weight and less resilience seems pointless.

You don't need to pump 29er wheels 'cos they carry so much flippin' speed anyway.

Wish someone had pointed that out to him in that video.

Wish someone had pointed that out to him in that video.

Isn't there a 29er Geometron? I like the fact that Chris Porter has a opinion and is prepared to back it up with a bike that's built to that idea. Given they seem to selling like hot cakes and there seems to be a line of folk willing to part with quite a bit of cash to own one. He might be onto something..?

enjoyed the vid, the thing I took from it is that luckily for us, there's probably a bike that will suit pretty much any type or style of riding. oh, and +tyres are pretty flimsy! 😆

So the + size tyres needed more reinforcement in the sidewalls but that would result in wheels that would be too heavy. Sounds like you could have many of the benefits of + size tyres with less of a weight penalty if you reduced the diameter of the rim.

If only there was a solution. A smaller diameter rim perhaps.