[Closed] 12.5k bike.

not a bad looking bike...think I'd be too scared of scratching or getting dirt on it!

Gorgeous, ride it on sunny dry days only.

[i]Gorgeous, ride it on sunny dry days only. [/i]

Nah, winter commuter - if you can afford it, use it.

Likewise. Would be more likely to mount it on the wall than dare to ride it much

If I could afford it, I'd never buy one.

If I won it, I'm confident than even the plasterboard walls on our newbuild would bear the diminutive weight once hung on the wall as objet d'art.

Reality check - Remember 'Its not about the bike', here's proof. 12.5 grand or not it did not win the worlds greatest bike race this year.Its only worth that if people are willing to pay that much! Perhaps that's how much it cost to create? That said its just about cool.

there was one of those in a shop i was in last week but altho it was sky rep it had campag on. (then again not sure what the team use) but that was 7500 quid , it was also sold. nice mind

Cheers, just entered and if I win, sell it

Sky use Dura Ace, I don't think they all use Di2 though.

Even with the SRM on there I'm not entirely sure it's £12500 though! Evans have a Sky replica Dogma for £6700 with Di2, carbon wheels etc, the SRM adds c£2500, there's slightly different finishing kit, but I'm struggling otherwise to see where the extra comes from though!

Who cares it's shiny.

Entered and if I win I'll ride the damm thing, it's only a bike after all.

Wonder if Crud Racers will fit?

I still prefer the Prince to the Dogma, in fact the Prince is my 'dream bike' but I've entered anyway, I'd settle for the more expensive Dogma! SRM would be good too!

competition entered
Seat position looks very, erm, skyward though

what is a SRM ?

😳

Looks like a work of art to me. I want it.

[url= http://www.evanscycles.com/products/sram/power-meter-chainset-srm-ec023068?query=srm ]srm[/url]

aint cheap

what is a SRM ?

If Raggodair's link wasn't clear, they're cranks that measure your power output. The benchmark for power meters frankly, with a crazy price tag!

aaaah; if they'd said "power meter" I'd have been OK

aint cheap

😯

£2299.99!!!!! F*CK ME!! I NEED A LIE DOWN!!! 😯

If anyone on here by any chance wins it... make sure to let us know

I read that as 12.5kg bike, and thought "that's really heavy for a road bike!"

Actually [url= http://www.cyclepowermeters.co.uk/srm-shimano-duraace-7900-compatible-standard-p-190.html ]this[/url] is the 7900/Di2 version!

big-chief-96 - Member
£2299.99!!!!! F*CK ME!! I NEED A LIE DOWN!!!

If anyone on here by any chance wins it... make sure to let us know

Its cool, here's a cheaper version for the working class amongst us 🙄

[url= http://www.evanscycles.com/products/sram/power-meter-chainset-quarq-ec023069?query=SRAM power meter]relax[/url]

****ing faggets bike!!! whats wrong with you all?! its a road bike! you guys need to get a life!, seriously!!!

Hmm, don't like wiggly Pinarellos. Give me a Storck any day...

The Dogma is a bit too wiggly, and heavy, the Prince is a work of art though!

Njee20. The extra cost comes from producing the frame with quality carbon fibre composites. Not the cheap crap that gets filtered down to the public, but still costs about £2k for the frame.
The production bike is "wiggly" the race bike is stiff as.

entered... if I win it, I'll be putting it on eBay 😉

I have to say, the 4 grand chainset looks much nicer - I'll take one for the mtb as well

The production bike is "wiggly" the race bike is stiff as.

I certainly meant wiggly as in curvy tubing, rather than flexy, assume Corroded was the same. Like the idea that standard Dogmas are made of 'cheap crap' though!

How do you know they're using different frames for the team? That's pretty unusual these days, and does little for the brand IMO.

I'd buy a car instead to be honest!

But it looks nice, checks lotto numbers...nope not tonight Josephine!

If I had £12.5k to spend for something to hang on the wall I'd buy a painting. Ride.

Not a roadie, unless you count my fixie commuter, but that is LUSH!

im the biggest bike nerd ever
to start...toray t900 fibres used in SOME frames...so not all and its only adding a bit say 500.di2 is expensive but chainset and brakes are cheap and standard.
bars are not expensive as is saddle say 200 and stem 100 bars 300 if they're newton carbons....
the wheels would cost roughly 1800 so..
frame 3000
wheels 1600
groupset 2000
srm professional. 2800
bars,stem saddle 500.
cool paint...400?
= not 12000

Well there's carbon fibre composites, and then there's carbon composites.
The former are made with high modulus carbon fibre filaments woven into sheets and treated, known as "pre preg" inmthe lay up process. The latter are made from recovered offcuts of carbon fibre that are put into a vat with resin and mixed abit like glass fibre products. This product is known as "chopstrand".
Both types don't look particularly appealing in raw form, so a layer of cosmetic weave is laid up over the construction material as an aesthetic layer.
So when you buy a frame, you don't know what the underlying material is, but the price gives it away.
A full pre preg lay up costs about £7-10K whereas a chopstrand equivalent would be about £2-3K.
e.g. a single element rear wing for a F1 car is £10K it has to be strong so it's made of the best material.
The body panels are made from chopstrand, but still cost about £5K.

My expertise on carbon composites is based in the golf industry, but we've been using carbon composites for over 20 years now.
And a driver shaft made from HM LT FW carbon can cost more than a set of 9 carbon shafted irons. And you can feel the difference in performance in back to back tests.

"shafted" ...chuckle.

£12,500 my arse. Proves my point that cycling has become a rip-off activity.

My expertise on carbon composites is based in the golf industry

Interesting - didn't know cheap golf clubs used chopped strand cf. Seems very cheap and nasty. Not something which is used in most other industries that I'm aware of, including the bicycle frame one. Certainly not at all the case in the one I know most about, composite kayaks - given the amount of carbon fibre you get for your money in one of those, it's certainly not actually the cost of the raw cf which is setting the price. A 10kg kayak made largely from cf can be had for ~£3k - making the cost of the carbon rather less than £400 for a bike frame (now I know there are still big differences between different carbon weaves and strands, but we are talking about proper carbon weave rather than chopped offcuts here).

So when you buy a frame, you don't know what the underlying material is, but the price gives it away.

Actually more often than not the price actually gives away the amount the company spends on marketing, the paint scheme and other such intangible things. Cheap frames are often made in the same factory as expensive ones, using the same fibres and construction process.

The golf club analogy was used as an example to demonstate the differences in different grades of product using the same type of construction.
Both are filament wound carbon fibre, but the basic version is totally inferior while being advertised as basically the same product.
The filament wound shaft is designed to resist torsional loads during impact and deliver the clubhead suarely through the ball. The basic shaft, for the same swing speed and impact force delivers the face at about 2-3 degrees open, producing a shot that can deviate as much as 20 yards offline, and lose about 40-50 yards distance by imparting unwanted sidespin on the ball and lowering the MOI coefficient.
That's a big margin for a product that's sold on it's ability to improve distance and accuracy.

You seem to be comparing a fairly simple lay up process in Kayaks (which can also be made from glass fibre, and as yet, bicycles can't) to the very complex lay up involved in bicycle frame manufacture where high tensile loads are experienced regularly in use, and comapring the costs directly.
I don't think there's a comparison to be made there.

The motorsport analogy is a more direct comparison, as the loads are far higher, but in similar areas. The technology for CF bicycles has filtered down from motorsport.

I saw a Yeti 575 chainstay snap a few years ago and we had the Renult F1 team riding in the area that weekend. It was one of their engineers that pointed out the "chopstrand" constuction method and suggested it was not up to the job.
He then went on to elaborate on the construction processes they use for different elements of the car and the costs invloved.
I got some nice fleeces and t shirts that weekend too.

Both are filament wound carbon fibre, but the basic version is totally inferior while being advertised as basically the same product.

Ah - I was a bit surprised. So given the cheap ones have a torsion problem, does that mean they're using fibres running straight down the length of the shaft? I have to wonder if it's a marketing issue, given ISTM that it shouldn't be that much more expensive to make a wound shaft (certainly kayak paddle shafts are made that way, and I'd imagine they're cheaper than even your cheap carbon shaft golf club)

You seem to be comparing a fairly simple lay up process in Kayaks (which can also be made from glass fibre, and as yet, bicycles can't) to the very complex lay up involved in bicycle frame manufacture where high tensile loads are experienced regularly in use, and comapring the costs directly.

I was comparing the materials cost (given kayaks don't use chopped strand cf). Though realistically there isn't actually as much difference as you suggest - not if you're comparing with the high end kayaks I was, which use pre-preg and vac-bag construction. Just because people don't make bikes out of glass fibre doesn't mean you can't from a technology perspective - the issue being that given the amount of material used it wouldn't make a bike frame that much cheaper, whereas material cost is a far greater proportion of a kayak, hence it makes a far more significant difference.

I saw a Yeti 575 chainstay snap a few years ago and we had the Renult F1 team riding in the area that weekend. It was one of their engineers that pointed out the "chopstrand" constuction method and suggested it was not up to the job.

I agree with the F1 bloke, and am surprised - though it's not as if a Yeti is a cheap frame, so I don't think your price point stands! Then again I'm also not totally convinced - how exactly do you tell from a broken part that it is chopped strand rather than long fibres? All you get to see is the broken bit which doesn't tell you anything about how long the strands behind it are, any surface you can see could easily just be cosmetic.

Well I'm in. I could use a commuter.

I did say, both are filament wound. It's the quality of construction that's the differnce.

That's exactly my point. A Yeti isn't a cheap frame. But the construction methods in the cf rear triangle appeared to be the cheapest form of the material on that particular model in that year. I understand they've improved it now.

A glassfibre frame would struggle to compete with an alloy frame on cost for the same weight and strength. But if you look at the Scott Ransom, so does a production CF frame.

When a tubular section breaks, you have the luxury of being able to see inside it. That's where the F1 engineer looked to make his analysis of the construction. When you've seen something thousands of times you just recognise it.

It's strange that you agree with the (possibly ficticious, although it's true) F1 engineer, but dismiss my argument as a Golfsmith qualified professional.

I think we're looking at this subject from different angles and would struggle to reach an agreement.

I'm busy for the next couple of days, so I'll thank you for the discussion and hope to have a similar chat on a different subject soon.

So you're suggesting the off the shelf Dogma is chopped strand, not up to the job and they snap if you look at them strangely, whilst the team ones are pukka?

I'm gonna stick my neck out and say you're wrong on that one!

I cut up a Scott Spark frame the other day, that was quite interesting, sadly I lost my phone yesterday, so I can't actually upload the pics!

That's exactly my point. A Yeti isn't a cheap frame.

In which case, how does "So when you buy a frame, you don't know what the underlying material is, but the price gives it away." work?

A glassfibre frame would struggle to compete with an alloy frame on cost for the same weight and strength.

Indeed - a point I meant to make, and there's an equally good reason why cheaper kayaks are made from glass rather than aluminium! Another reason why you don't get glassfibre bike frames - the point being that it's not anything technical at all, and the fact you can get kayaks made from glassfibre is no reflection on the quality and construction of high end cf ones. In fact glass isn't necessarily as cheap and low tech as you seem to think - I own a kayak made mostly from glass fibre but using sophisticated sandwich and vac bag techniques with proper woven cloth (which cost more than most cf bike frames!)

When a tubular section breaks, you have the luxury of being able to see inside it.

You do, but what you see is the broken end and the inside of the weave, neither of which tell you much about what's going on in the bit you can't see.

It's strange that you agree with the (possibly ficticious, although it's true) F1 engineer, but dismiss my argument as a Golfsmith qualified professional.

Well I agree with the point that chopped strand is a rubbish construction technique - has always been know as such, and only the very cheapest boats are made that way. Doesn't really matter whether the engineer is fictional or not to agree with that.

I'm not sure which argument of yours (which you are using your Golfsmith credentials to back up) you think I've dismissed out of hand - I might disagree with some of your points, but thought I'd argued why I disagreed. However if you're going to press me, I'd point out that AFAIK your Golfsmith qualification is actually nothing to do with engineering or carbon composite technology, and that the golf industry doubtless has vast amounts more marketing BS than even the bicycle industry (given the relative wealth of those taking part and the belief that you can buy performance). I'm still very dubious about your insinuation that different grades of carbon result in orders of magnitude differences in stiffness if the fibre alignment is indeed the same - when HM cf is in reality far less than twice as stiff as normal stuff.