What about the cost of the components?
They are expensive fo'shure, but you have factor in the longevity
I've got Eagle GX on my old bike and AdventX on my new bike.
The only problem I had with the Eagle GX was the chain dropping onto the jockey wheel and wrecking the mech - this was before SRAM added the ridge to the jockey wheel to stop it happening.
The AdventX is fine although I do miss the 50t crawler gear. I don't really feel any difference other than that.
I think the gigantic rear cassettes are pointless. If you need that low of a gear, you’re better off (and quicker) walking. I have 32t chainring with 42t cassette, I don’t think anything easier than that is necessery.
Your 32/42 set up gives you a 0.76 ratio.
My 40/51 set up gives me a 0.78 ratio. (Higher on my 42/51)
You've got a slightly easier gear than those of us with 1x, but with the added complexity and expense of extra chain rings, mechs, shifters, etc.
TLDR : you are wrong!
Bringing it back to basics, for me anything 1x is preferable to a multi-chainring setup (for MTBing). Both hands doing two things equally: one brake lever and one other lever - gear lever and dropper lever. Easy.
So much better for kids learning too. I lead groups at our local club and dismayed at the amount of kids MTBs still coming with front mechs. So much better for kids knowing that they press one lever for an easier gear and the other lever for a harder gear, without all the overlap and complication of a front mech.
What a11y said, left thunb is for a dropper, not a shifter. MTB has moved on from 2x/3x.
The overlap between multiple front rings is just wasted weight
I bought 2 bikes, they had 1x12 setups (1 Sram, 1 Shimano, coincidentally). I've had no end of problems, so I'm going to purchase new shifters, chains, cassettes and rear mechs so that they work betterer. No, that's nonsense, they've both been perfect. There's some proper bollocks spouted on this thread, to be sure.
I think the gigantic rear cassettes are pointless. If you need that low of a gear, you’re better off (and quicker) walking.
Factually correct, but entirely missing the point.
From memory I've had 7 bikes with 12sp drivetrains and not had an issue with any of them. My Chromag is coming up to two years old and only recently replaced the chain as it hit .5 on the checker. Replaced the inner shift cable for the first time but it didn't really need doing.
Yep for the 12 speed backers - I've been running Shim/SRAM 12 spd for a few years now and find it just as durable (if not more so) than 1x 11 speed etc. Only issue I've had is the usual hanger alignment shifting problem once, easily fixed.
I do think that 12sp 10-50/1/2 is now about the sweet spot for 1x cassette range - give you roughly what a 26" triple used to give you without the front mech faffery. Can't say I really notice any gaps in 12 speed 1x cassettes either, esp the Shimano ones. (I have been running a 1x 11 spd 10-42 on my cross bike as a road bike and really do notice the 2 tooth gaps on that vs a road bike 11-28 for reference, but obviously MTB tends to be much more variable cadence so not an issue for me).
Incidentally, the OP complaining about "these massive cassettes" has an 11-46 - which is by most standards, a MASSIVE cassette
Incidentally, the OP complaining about “these massive cassettes”
Incidentally, he didn't.
I do think that 12sp 10-50/1/2 is now about the sweet spot for 1x cassette range – give you roughly what a 26″ triple used to give you without the front mech faffery.
Yes, and you can offset the wheel size effect by choosing a different chainring. I really don't think 13sp is needed, 12 is enough for MTBs.
I still run 10 speed on both my bikes, 32t chainring, 11-46 cassettes.
From a mechanical and economic point of view, until recently I haven't really seen the point of 'upgrading'. 10 speed is pretty forgiving with less than perfect indexing, is pretty cheap and just continues to work and last for ages. (Saint shifter, XT rear mech and Sunrace cassette, SP41 outer, shimano inner fwiw)
However, as I've gradually upped the wheel sizes of my bikes to 29er and the type of riding I find myself doing evolving more towards the winch and plummet, I'm starting to look more and more at 11 and 12 speed to increase the range.
Sure, I can continue to 'muscle' up climbs but after 3 or 4 hours of doing this, I'm too knackered to enjoy the descents while all my mates are spinning up the same climbs and are relatively fresh at the top.
So, from a 10 speed stalwart, for me, the point of 11/12 speed is exactly what the OP describes, that being the differing gearing ratios. While I don't agree with all the issues of 11/12 speed listed in the OP - too many of my friends are riding 12sp without issue to warrant merit, if you don't need the additional range of gears then 10 speed works perfectly fine.
coconut
Incidentally, he didn’t.
Sorry, that should have read "for those complaining"....has come out rather different than intended.
Also, along the lines of a11y up there, 1x drive trains are so much better for CX and also for kids categorised road racing as they're all gear restricted so there's no point really having 2 front rings until Youth B (U14) as with 1x you can have the simplicity of one shifter, a good range of gears and considerably less to go wrong, especially in grassy mud clog 'fest that is CX.
Sure, I can continue to ‘muscle’ up climbs but after 3 or 4 hours of doing this,
Nobody needs to muscle up climbs any differently on 10sp, 11sp, or 12sp because the same climbing gears are covered by every transmission. Even a triple ring 90s MTB with 22 lowest front and 11-28 rear has roughly the same lowest gear as my current 11 or 12sp 1x.
Nobody needs to muscle up climbs any differently on 10sp, 11sp, or 12sp because the same climbing gears are covered by every transmission.
Eh, no, not really. You could be winching up a climb in 28/51 with 12 speed, which is a ratio of 0.54, much lower than the benchmark 22/34 of traditional 3x9. However chainrings don't come any smaller than 28, so if you only have 10 speed you are looking at 28/48 (the biggest on CRC) if you can get it to fit, which you might not because that's a stretch. 28/48 is 0.58, and there will be some significant compromises elsewhere in the riding experience due to a pretty tiny top gear and big jumps in the cassette. So your assertion is not true from a technical level but also pretty unlikely from a practical one I'd say. having a 51t cassette allows you to use a 32 or 34t ring and get a sensible top gear and still have the bottom gear you might want.
Even a triple ring 90s MTB with 22 lowest front and 11-28 rear has roughly the same lowest gear as my current 11 or 12sp 1x.
It doesn't have the same low gear as mine. Plus no-one ran 28t cassettes in the 90s except roadies.
Eh, no, not really.
Balsacks! You are right because I used a 40T front ring (as found on my gravel bike) instead of the 30 or 32T (as found on my MTBs). Apologies everyone. As usual, I'm the idiot.
It doesn’t have the same low gear as mine. Plus no-one ran 28t cassettes in the 90s except roadies.
But you are wrong here. My first few mid-90s MTBs had triples, with 7sp cassettes of 11-28. When I rode the Etape in 2000, I remember trying to get hold of an 11-27 cassette for my road bike - they had only just been released in that size.
What am I missing ?
Mountains to ride your mountain bike up obviously.
My first few mid-90s MTBs had triples, with 7sp cassettes of 11-28.
My 1992 Kona had 13-32 I'm pretty sure, I never heard of anyone using 11-28 on MTBs, you're the first. The Kona also had I think 46/36/24 chainrings as MicroDrive (tm) hadn't yet come out on Shimano, again IIRC.
My 1992 Kona had 13-32 I’m pretty sure, I never heard of anyone using 11-28 on MTBs, you’re the first.
1994 Marin brochure below - every MTB that I can see listed as 11-28, up to XT level.
The 1992 Kona brochure has 13-30 on the cheaper bikes and 12-28s on the more expensive.
.html
Oab_household is pretty much all 11sp.
We have one 10sp and one 12sp.
The 12sp is seemingly fussy over setup.
10 and 11sp is very similar, but 11sp has fewer jumps and wider range, for no discernable difference IME>
When I first got into mountain biking I remember seeing exactly the same stuff on the internet, but it was criticising the new 9 speed stuff instead of 11/12 speed. Longevity, reliability, 'oh why did they have to change it, 8 speed worked perfectly fine' etc etc
On a side note, it does make me wonder how many sprockets we'll end up with!
Of course you could have an even greater range without those bloody awful gaps. And so much simpler. Go triple. You avoid a stupidly long and complex rear mech and a hefty cassette. All for the penalty of the simplest and most foolproof part ever fitted to a bike, the front mech.
A triple is just a giant cassette on the front
the front mech.
The other reason it had to go of course, was full suss 29ers. At some point you need to fit a front mech, some suspension that works, a pivot, a bearing or two, a wheel and tyre and space for 3 rings at the front, a water bottle perhaps, and route the dropper somewhere through all that.
Remove the need for a front mech, and pretty much all those other issues go away.
Having run SRAM 1x12 on all my bikes for the last 4 years Ive had exactly zero issues at all. Ive barely had to adjust a derailleur nor bugger all. If you don't have it, your loss.
Zero Friction Cycling does a lot of testing of drive trains on his dyno set ups and publishes all the results online: https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/
His results show that for many systems, the 12sp lasts longer / wears slower than 11sp than 10sp under his test conditions. IIRC most of it relates to road drive trains, but still not the result I was expecting.
Chains have got thinner, but they're made out of harder metals so last longer.
Have 2 12spd setups in the house, an XT group and a GX/XT hybrid (Shimano mech and shifter, Gx cassette and chain), both have lasted ages, XT is still on original chain after almost 3 years And still below .5mm
cassettes are both holding up fine and have both lasted longer than 10 and 11 speed variants.
Pah, what's wrong with 3 x 7 ? 🙂
I make use of the full range of 3*8 on my Marassa for commutes, 26/36 through to 48/12. I've been very lazy in sorting out the front mech on my Attain GTC to reliably shift into both rings, fortunately I'm getting up everything in the 50 ring with 11-34 cassette, avoiding anything ~12%+ for more than a few seconds... No thoughts of a dropper yet. 😉
Chains have got thinner, but they’re made out of harder metals so last longer.
So...if we had an 10 speed chain made of the same stuff would it last forever!?
I used to run Alivio 8spd shifters and an LX rear mech most of the time.
Or singlespeed.
Now I have Deore 12 speed 10-50t/11-51t cassettes and shifters and it's amazing. Don't have the setup problems of before. Wear seems good. One of my cassettes has the 11th sprocket in the wrong place I think (some strange ticking/rubbing) but otherwise I wouldn't go back.
In fact, after 15 months of modern 12spd Deore gear i finally, accidentally, found the 2-way shifting system on the shifter (rofl!) where I can more easily push the lever forwards instead of wrenching my wrist to change gear!!!
11sp holding up fine under huge stresses on the eeeeeeeeb
So…if we had an 10 speed chain made of the same stuff would it last forever!?
I think this is what Shimano has done with linkglide.
So…if we had an 10 speed chain made of the same stuff would it last forever!?
or 12 speeds that effectively already last "forever"
Meh, railing against extra sprockets is just one of those things you have to do I suppose.
We've all been there, I still don't actually own a bike with more than 10 sprockets on the back, but I have nothing against them, and I think seeing as the future is 1x (and it is) more cogs in the range to smooth out the steps just makes sense...
So yeah, never say never...
11sp holding up fine under huge stresses on the eeeeeeeeb
You can use 11 speed chains on 10 speed, and 9 as well...
Plus no-one ran 28t cassettes in the 90s except roadies.
I was running, along with most of my team mates, XTR 95x triples with something like a 12/27 9 speed cassette and short or medium cage rear mech. Only time we used big cassettes was flattish courses, so you didn't need to shift at the front. Everything else was a large road cassette and triple at the front.
Still got my race bike in the attic set up like that (might have an 11-28 on it at the moment)
Meh, railing against extra sprockets is just one of those things you have to do I suppose.
I think (generally) the development curve for peak acceptance for lots of folks whose experience started with 7 speed stopped at about 10, maybe 11 speed . The XT M770 being I think the zenith of triple (and double for a wee while) systems that (in no particular order) looked good on pretty much every bike, worked flawlessly, gave you enough gears, and was affordable. Past that you suddenly start to get into stuff like B knuckles and direct mount and clutches...and all of a sudden the technology is sort of not the same anymore. It's like the drive train you're used to, but the set up is different enough so that your long learned tricks and tips don't quite work any more (especially all the ones you learned for front mech that are now redundant).
the relentless march of technology is a bitch if you've stopped learning
Yeah, I was going to suggest XTR M970 as being a zenith. I don't think the aesthetics have been bettered either. I managed to skip 10 speed MTB, just because I wasn't buying new bikes at that point and have happily settled on 11 speed at the moment. I can't currently see any point in going beyond that but guess that I might at some point in the future, unless 13 speed pops up in the meantime.
Upgrading to the latest tech was originally the only way to get wider range gearing, 10 speed only had a 36t cassette and 11 speed was max 42. It was only later that bigger cassettes for 10/11 speed have been available.
I stayed 10 speed for a long while, I started with a 36 cassette, then got a 42t expander cog and finally got an 11-46 cassette with no bodging necessary.
For me the "Why 12 speed" misses the point a lot of the time, It's not really a "solution" to triples, or having more cogs than 10sp or 11sp, it's ultimately a question about bike design.
i’d happily use a 10 speed cassette with a 50 low.
the only issue i’ve had with 11 speed was when i used a “boost” shimano crank. the chain line was so bad (55mm i think) it was breaking chains. i have returned to a 52 mm chain line and all is good.
unless 13 speed pops up in the meantime.
[Ahem]Google "Campagnolo Ekar"[Ahem]
