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Question: can you run 2x10 speed with 9speed mechs?
bump
No - 9 speed mechs don't work on 10 speed and vice-versa.
GB
10spd mtb shifters are not the same cable pull as 9spd items.
Gee - I haven't tried it but wondered why?? the casette width is the same and shifters control the indexing. That leaves the jockey wheels - which could be changed if they cause a problem. Just curious!
Or different cable pull ratios...
Yep, as said, different cable pull ratios. Although you could use flat bar road shifters, which will work.
so the mech still covers the same arc right & the (10 speed) shifters just moves the mech within that arc? So why won't it work?
because to move the mech one sprocket the shifters pull more cable...
.. and the mech needs more cable pull to move one sprocket
so the cable pull is different.
SRAM mechs don't work with Shimano shifters because cable pull is different. Same is true with 9 and 10 speed.
i use a 9 speed ultegra mech with 10 speed shifters - no problem. The mech itself is not what determines each 'index', it's the shifters.
ah but which 10spd shifters trickpsyclist?
After re-thinking this I am not convinced that the 9 speed mech will not work... has anybody actually tried it with MTB components??
So long as the shifter and use the same mech pull ratio, the shifter wil determine how far the mech moves and therefore would move it less between gears.
Well my dad runs a 9 speed derailleur with a 8 speed shifter and that works fine, so I would have thought it work work the other way and with 10 speed, no?
No - Shimano 9, 8 and 7 speed are the same cable pull geometry. 10 speed is different. For each unit of cable movement the mech moves a different amount.
Having spent a long time laughing when a friend fitted a 10 speed XT mech to a 9 speed bike, then seeing about replacing the entire transmission including shifter when it didn't work, then realising what had happened and fitting and 9 speed XT mech and bravo - it works.
GB
Well thats just bloody stupid.
Think of the mech as a lever. You've a cable attached at a point x along the length of the lever, pulling at say 90deg to the lever. And the cable is attached to a drum that you turn y degrees to move the lever by z degrees. Now you NEED to modify the amount of movement of z (by the incremental bit less for a single 10spd shift). To further complicate things you also HAVE to reduce the no of degrees that y moves (to squeeze in another indexing position). You can either increase the dim of point x from the pivot point, or you decrease the dia of the drum so it pulls less cable. So seeing as you HAVE to modify dim z, you now NEED to increase dim x accordingly. Retaining the old dim x would move the lever too far. Greatly exagerated, the mech would hit its stop before your full 10 shifts.
Or something like that.
[b]So long as the shifter and use the same mech pull ratio, [/b]the shifter wil determine how far the mech moves and therefore would move it less between gears.
But they don't!
i use a 9 speed ultegra mech with 10 speed shifters - no problem.
10 speed road stuff is cross compatible (confusingly!), hence why you can use flat bar road shifters with a 9 speed mech. Newer 10 speed road groups have a different front mech pull, but that's a different kettle of fish!
The ratios are:
1. Shimano 7/8/9 speed MTB and 10 speed road
2. Shimano 10 speed MTB
3. SRAM 9 speed MTB
4. SRAM 10 speed MTB/Road
You cannot mix and match mechs and shifters from any of those 'groups'. There may be bodges and it may sort of work, but if you want it to work properly, don't mix components!
I'm still not convinced myself...
Same stroke, as 8/9 simply finer increments right? Why would shimano switch from 2:1 which they've used for the best part of what 30 odd years? so now they've chosen to change it? what to?
Lets see some actual numbers then...
Yes, they have changed it. I would hazard a guess that they thought maybe 10 gears needed a slightly different cable pull to give reliable shifting in mucky conditions. Who knows? But it has been changed and therefore you cannot mix 9 and 10 speed MTB stuff. This has to be the most asked question relating to drivetrains in the last 6 months.
Go on then, go and try it, buy a mech, and let us know how it goes.
Read these first:
[url= http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/2011-shimano-xtr-m980-first-ride-review-27300/ ]1[/url]
[url= http://twentynineinches.com/2010/07/07/shimano-dyna-sys-10-speed-xt-update/ ]2[/url]
[url= http://www.bikerumor.com/2010/05/25/shimano-xt-3x10-dynasys-unboxed-and-weighed/ ]3[/url]
They're on the first page of Google, but that covers some of the obvious sources.
The ratios are:1. Shimano 7/8/9 speed MTB and 10 speed road
2. Shimano 10 speed MTB
3. SRAM 9 speed MTB
4. SRAM 10 speed MTB/Road
Yeah, I think you're right here - I though i'd read something like that but couldn't find time to check. IIRC there are similar compatibility problems with shimano and campagnolo road stuff, but I won;t look into that until it affects me! Back to work... Teachers get loads of free time don't they... 🙄
I'm still not convinced myself...Same stroke, as 8/9 simply finer increments right? Why would shimano switch from 2:1 which they've used for the best part of what 30 odd years? so now they've chosen to change it? what to?
Lets see some actual numbers then...
A simple statement, Dura-Ace.
It is only the last couple of iterations that can be mixed with other groupsets, it was always made so it could not be mixed.
Shimano do what Shimano do, they make what they think works, cross-compatibility is not an issue in my opinion.
Fot mtb:
9 spd left hand shifters work with 10spd chainsets/front mechs.
9 spd right hand shifters dont work with 10spd rear mechs.
I run 9 speed shifters & cassette,9 spd rear mech,10spd chain,10spd chainset,10spd front mech.All runs very well.
That's not really true, except for the fact DA 'evolves' a year ahead of other groups it's not been incompatible.
Yeah, I think you're right here
I am right. I just don't get why no one seems to understand this, everyone gets the SRAM/Shimano incompatibility!
arghhhhh why won't people accept that it wont work because the pull ratios are different?
IT WON'T WORK!
umm hate to break it to nick et all but i was curious to see and i just got an 970 mech working with 980 shifters on a 10spd 11-36... sram ive not tried but xtr works
andyl - Memberarghhhhh why won't people accept that it wont work because the pull ratios are different?
IT WON'T WORK!
Because you are not correct 🙂
Mechs are slaves, they only love as far as the shifter tells them to.
The only issue is if the mech isn't rated for the largest cog size, but generally they just work 🙂
Sorry Tim, the ratios are different between 9 and 10 so mixing doesn't work. There may be ways around this that people have discovered but in a standard set up they are not compatible.
Trust me, I am paid to know about this kind of thing 😉
Fair enough :-)- i assumed it was the same as older 7/8/9 stuff when, even if it wasn't 100% it worked pretty muich perfectly anyway 🙂
I think we need a diagram to illustrate the concept of a pull ratio. 😉
bikerbruce that is exactly the information I was after. Now tell me will a 980 double shifter work with 970 front mech & 10 speed XTR crankset?
Correction - make that a 971 XTR front mech
So you're gonna spend all that money on a setup that may work with a bit of bodging? Why not just buy a whole Alivio groupset, probably work better!
Can't really see the harm in questioning it myself, seems more foolish to simply accept all the press guff on face value without a bit od research and experimentation...
1:1.8 you say?
Interesting, I'd have thought that 0.2 difference isn't far short of the level of inaccuracy normally introduced by a bit of calbe stretch, or different sprocket thicknesses between SRAM and shimano cassettes...
So I'm still not entirely convinced it's not at least partially marketing piffle to persuade people to have a new whole group and not to simply buy the shifters/chain/cassette and have a pop at 10 speeding their 9 speed setups...
I'll acknowledge that Shimano have been consistent though and introduced a 10 speed specific mech for all the new dynasys groups, but the difference could be as minor as different jockeys, anyone been over a new SLX 9 and SLX 10 mech to establish the exact dimensional differences yet?
No doubt there will be a "Pull ratio modifier" available from someone soon enough...
Question for the "Experts" - do the new Shimano 10 speed MTB cassettes have the same Center-to-center Spacing and Sprocket Thickness as Shimano 10 speed Road stuff?
All this talk of bodging - I smashed up an X9 10 speed rear mech, but wanted to ride the next day, so I used the spare 9 speed I had in a drawer for the occasion.
I was all accepting that it wouldn't be perfect & might skip over a couple of cogs. What do you know, 3 months later its still going fine & shifts just as well as the old one, pre disaster.
No bodging, no silly cable routes, bunged it on, set it up & away it went.
But the Marketing says your bike should have exploded five times over by now
Witch Craft I say, WITCH CRAFT!!!!