CornersHere’s the fact – there is a turn we regularly test trail bikes on. Its nickname amongst locals is ‘the turn’ (pretty imaginative). Anyway, ‘the turn’ is a slightly off-camber, 20mph foot out, flat out, ‘railer’. We could go around ‘the turn’ on our Pat’s Pyga consistently 2mph [b](don’t ask how we measure this, it’s very scientific and tricky to get to grips with)[/b] faster, time, after time, after time than we ever have on any 26” trail bike. This means you can go into turns faster, which means you can go around them faster, which means you come out faster. If speed is what you’re looking for then the 29er Pyga is the answer to your prayers.
and with a proper shampoo here comes the sciencey bit you couldn't possibly understand and if we told you you would laugh...
Hmmm yeah how do they know it was 2mph faster?
Sounds like a great bike
Funny star thing in thread title?
It'll escalate, mark my words.
By lunchtime it'll be images of ostriches being spilled from burning cars tumbling down hillsides.
*wanders off muttering*
The drawback though is that, as these bikes make things easier, smoothing things out with their bigger wheels, you have less interesting and difficult terrain in a particular area.
A trail that might have been seen as black and somewhat edgy on your hardtail might be an easy red on your 29er FS.
If you mtb for some degree of adrenaline rush, or the mental challenge of forcing you to face some difficulty, then I am not sure I see the point of moving to these bikes, they are skills compensators, you might as well just ride easier routes on your hardtail.
Good points well made, TurnerGuy.
Or if smooth trails are peoples 'thing' then go buy a road bike & stick to riding nice smooth tarmac.
This bike comes with two-wheel drive.
S****... 😉
Very good point well made TurnerGuy. It's why my FS bike sees so little action. Keeping up with mates on their big bouncers on my HT is a lot more fun.
I am not sure I see the point of moving to these bikes, they are skills compensators, you might as well just ride easier routes on your hardtail.
You ride a rigid 26" wheeled bike with rim brakes?
[i]You ride a rigid 26" wheeled bike with rim brakes?[/i]
You ride with brakes?
BOOOOOOOOM!
The drawback though is that, as these bikes make things easier, smoothing things out with their bigger wheels, you have less interesting and difficult terrain in a particular area.A trail that might have been seen as black and somewhat edgy on your hardtail might be an easy red on your 29er FS.
This a bizzare argument as nobody forces you to ride a particular bike, or choose a particular trail. When I did an uplift day at Cwmcarn there were the full range of bikes and riders also enjoying run after run on the Downhill trail, ranging from guys in lycra on XC hardtails to your fully kitted-out DH riders, all enjoying the challenge - whether it was getting down alive whilst maintaining composure (us :wink:) to the guys going for times runs as quick as they could :twisted:. Mountain bikes are full of [i]'skills compensating'[/i] components as you put it; you make your choice and ride.
I suspect there'll be some DH / Enduro riders very interested in that extra 2mph on the Pyga 29er, that'll be the difference between a podium place and a middle of the pack finishing position for some of them, I I don't think they'll give a monkeys that it might have [i]'made things easier, smoothing the trail out'. [/i]
I am not sure I see the point of moving to these bikes, they are skills compensators, you might as well just ride easier routes on your hardtail.
You really are very narrow minded aren't you 😉
Some MTB skills are more difficult on a 29er. On the techy and twisty singletrack in my local woods my 26er is most definitely a skills compensator compared with my 29er. If I want a challnege I take the 29er and have fun chasing down my mates on the their 26ers.
You ride a rigid 26" wheeled bike with rim brakes?
I have a rigid 26 which could accommodate rim brakes, but I run BB7s.
Main bike is a 4inch FS (a Turner...), but soon to have built a cross bike, which should be perfect for the new smooth trails at Swinley 🙂
I suspect there'll be some DH / Enduro riders very interested in that extra 2mph on the Pyga 29er, that'll be the difference between a podium place and a middle of the pack finishing position for some of them, I I don't think they'll give a monkeys that it might have 'made things easier, smoothing the trail out'.
and by extension you could take PED's, buying performance rather than earning it...
[i]I suspect there'll be some DH / Enduro riders very interested in that extra 2mph on the Pyga 29er[/i]
You keep using these words, I don't think they mean what you think they mean
and by extension you could take PED's, buying performance rather than earning it...
I think you're completely missing the point here. The DH racing scene is where the main product development in our sport is taking place to improve performance; a 2mph improvement in speed ia a huge gain.
Performance enhancing drugs have no place in this debate, or in the sport.
?????You keep using these words, I don't think they mean what you think they mean
and with a proper shampoo here comes the sciencey bit you couldn't possibly understand and if we told you you would laugh...
Exactly!
Marketing waffle - no more, no less.
But hey by all means drink the kool-aid..
Are we really equating taking EPO with riding a 29er?
I guess I should hand myself in to WADA and give my Swift to the police 🙁
It's getting confuddling?
Is there a new 29" movement taking over from 650b as flavour of the month now that 650b has been shown to be little more than an overhyped and pumped up 26"? If so can we expect the new 29" movement to again show us "once and for all" that the new 29" is better than 26" (and 650b of course) and the old original 29" (which clearly had "issues" which the new 29" movement has obviously fixed) which is why the old 29" is evidently not as good as the new 29"; and that is why we should all be aspiring to join the new 29" movement rather than the old clearly not as good 29" or either of the absolutley not as good 650b and 26" movements (perhaps it's obvious really)?
People have actually fallen for this 29er malarky? 😯 *s****s*
[i]"now that 650b has been shown to be little more than an overhyped and pumped up 26"[/i]
Well WTB have stopped all development work on 26" tyres to focus on 650B and 29" so it maybe that either they think that 26" tyre technology has reached it's zenith or that they won't now see sufficient return on investment with 26" tyres.
Paceman, butcher isn't saying its 2mph faster, he's saying its more fun, and feels faster ( hence the nonsense about the science-y bit, it's a piss take of all the marketing BS that goes on)
Ride the bike that gives most fun, and stop worrying about other folk
I'd don't care about an extra 2miles an hour but I love being quicker up and down hills than my riding mates, does that make me shallow? ?
I know your own ability is the main factor but surely the bike plays a factor
I think you're completely missing the point here. The DH racing scene is where the main product development in our sport is taking place to improve performance; a 2mph improvement in speed is a huge gain.
But it is not a level playing field is it if some people get a 'free' extra 2mph - can the guy who wins on the 29er really be happy that he is the worthy winner against the guy who was on the 26er?
It is very similar to the guy taking PEDs beating the guys who haven't - his win is somewhat meaningless as it is not a level playing field.
Why do you thing they have formulas in motor racing?
Performance enhancing drugs have no place in this debate, or in the sport.
tell me what they differences are between buying PED's to gain performance and buying technology to gain performance - apart from legality.
So what do you suggest TurnerGuy - unless you run a race series in which all riders are on the same bike and all they can do is change the tyre and suspension pressures there will always be different technological solutions in use.
Otherwise someone might run a horst link rear end others a DW link - one might be 'better' than the other and give an unfair advantage.
Ride the bike that gives most fun, and stop worrying about other folk
the point I was making is that they are probably other trails in the area that are as much fun on the 26er, but that particular trail rated as a bit more challenging on the 26er.
The application of technology has now converted that challenging trail into a fun trail but would also have made all the previously fun trails into routine ones, and will have therefore reduced the number of challenging trails in that area.
Exactly the same argument as why many people have gone back to hardtails to ride.
Otherwise someone might run a horst link rear end others a DW link - one might be 'better' than the other and give an unfair advantage.
maybe there needs to be a formula scheme in mtb.
If I am competing against someone I would like to know that I was actually better, or not, than them, not that technology was giving me an advantage.
I suspect there'll be some DH / Enduro riders very interested in that extra 2mph on the Pyga 29er, that'll be the difference between a podium place and a middle of the pack finishing position for some of them, I I don't think they'll give a monkeys that it might have 'made things easier, smoothing the trail out'.
as the measurement cant be explained the the 2mph is a total crock of poo really. No to get all science on people but it sounds like marketing BS.
And if you are not competing why choose the bike that gives you a smaller range of fun areas to ride?
Who has the most fun on country roads - the guy driving the mini cooper S or the guy driving the Maserati, assuming that they both stay within legal speeds?
and by extension you could take PED's, buying performance rather than earning it...
You really don't get the doping thing at all do you? It's bad for your health and the effects aren't equal or guaranteed in everyone that does it. Last I checked, 29ers might not be cool with kids still but that's about as detrimental to your health as it gets, and that 2mph is arguably the same for anyone that sits on it.
The test might be a bit outlandish and a bogus claim, but comparing it to PEDs is a bit daft.
[i]If I am competing against someone I would like to know that I was actually better, or not, than them,[/i]
I'd start doing running races.
Even in Formula races the only person you can truly compete with on equal terms is someone running an identical car to you. Look at F1 - the drivers most want to beat their team mates because they're running the same kit and it's a one to one thing. All the other drivers you're competing with their car and team as well as the individual at the wheel.
Last I checked, 29ers might not be cool with kids still but that's about as detrimental to your health as it gets,
It's the big (clown) shoes that are the issue quite easy to trip over though 😉
There is a formula for DH mtbing, anyway;
1) No engines
2) all riders should have Y-fronts on to avoid any underpant related advantage being found. Even the girls.
[img] 
[/img]
Looks like the perfect bike for some, and a bit too much or not enough for others.
2) all riders should have Y-fronts on to avoid any underpant related advantage being found. Even the girls.
downhill girls in y fronts woo hoo
(oops public forum)
If you mtb for some degree of adrenaline rush, or the mental challenge of forcing you to face some difficulty, then I am not sure I see the point of moving to these bikes, they are skills compensators, you might as well just ride easier routes on your hardtail.
No, you just ride the same trails faster, letting out your inner 5yr old and shout weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
Having said that I've done laps of Swinely on my BMX, fun, but slower and brutally painfull.
A bike is a bike, yawn, shut up and ride ffs. 😉
I was having this conversation about wheel size with a race organiser the other day, bigger wheels not being fair as gives an advantage on some tracks.
But this is applicable to pretty much any component on the bikes, a fox 40/Boxxer WC is going to be alot better than a budget pogo stick dh fork the same goes for shocks, rear linkages,frames etc
So the only way to make it 'fair' is to have everyone on the same bike and kit and then you could argue that the taller riders have an advantage as they have more stability at speed due to the long wheelbase.
The arguement can go on and on
Who has the most fun on country roads - the guy driving the mini cooper S or the guy driving the Maserati, assuming that they both stay within legal speeds?
Having driven both,the Maserati guy by far,it's about cubes mannnn...
Neither were mine...
Most fun car was an Aston Martin DB5 in the wet,power sliding round the corners..That wasn't mine either...I was young carefree & a little bit reckless ....
Dont people get it - All these new standards are just a way to extract yet more money from us poor folk. You get your bikes all nice and just how you like them and wham! suddenly your wheels are the wrong size. I just upgraded my whole drive train to 10sp just so I could buy a clutch rear mech - more fool me. No soon as Id done that I find out my wheels are the wrong size - would you believe it, all these years and I never new!!
Well Im calling a hault - Im not jumping on this bandwagon.... Im going to dig a big hole and fill it with a lifetimes supply of 26" tyres, tubes, spokes and rims.
Viva la Revolution!
psssst - 29ers look gay anyway
tee hee
ndthornton - you should have said "viva la 29er revolution" 😉
Having driven both,the Maserati guy by far,it's about cubes mannnn...
sticking to the road limits I hope?
no law against acceleration TurnerGuy. Or shoudl there be a legal limit of no more than N m/s acceleration to level the playing field?
But it is not a level playing field is it if some people get a 'free' extra 2mph - can the guy who wins on the 29er really be happy that he is the worthy winner against the guy who was on the 26er?
Shock horror, if my mate beats me with his new-fangled 10 speed chainset then that's just not fair 
My 29er is faster over some trail sections I ride, whilst my 26er is faster over others. Mountain biking I hope never becomes a 'level-playing field', what's the fun in that. Are we to all ride identical bikes to our mates and check our tyre pressures are the same before each ride just to ensure the fastest guy having the most fun is really the true-fastest and happiest rider?? 😉
Psssst... sometimes I even take out my rigid steel hardtail when I want the trails to be especially challenging 😀
The drawback though is that, as these bikes make things easier, smoothing things out with their bigger wheels, you have less interesting and difficult terrain in a particular area.A trail that might have been seen as black and somewhat edgy on your hardtail might be an easy red on your 29er FS.
If you mtb for some degree of adrenaline rush, or the mental challenge of forcing you to face some difficulty, then I am not sure I see the point of moving to these bikes, they are skills compensators, you might as well just ride easier routes on your hardtail.
You could alternatively argue that you will be able to ride stuff that you couldn't previously so you will get the same mental challenge or adrenaline rush but you will be riding the same stuff faster to get it or be riding stuff you couldn't previously ride both of which are positives in my book . Most of us prefer riding the bike to pushing it so if you have a bike that means you can ride a climb that you previously had to push up then how can that be a bad thing ?
bit like the 2 snow boarders one is capable and does a 30 foot cliff drop, the other a novice and does a 1 foot drop, who has the biggest rush?
so riding the same trails on a 29 er v a 26 at different speeds may provide the same rush ? who knows
so riding the same trails on a 29 er v a 26 at different speeds may provide the same rush ? who knows
It does,as it does with h/tails or rigids.The point at which you are just about hanging on & keeping it all together arrives on all types of bike but may be at different speeds. The rush or plain old grin factor is still the same though....HUGE !
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that bigger wheels are faster. Of course they are. The bike manufacturers are interested in pushing the boundries and don't make bikes for us recreational riders where a 10g weight saving or an extra 2mph of speed will make a jot of difference to our enjoyment of the sport. Just ride what you've got and have a laugh. And there is no way on earth a Maserati is more fun than a proper Mini Cooper S (not the bloated, overweight, oversized BMW Mini Cooper S) - if you're talking about driving that is. It's like comparing driving a Kart vs. an articulated lorry.
29 or 26. I'm 42 years old not getting any more skillful and frankly you could stick me on a full carbon 10k uber bike with whatever wheels woudn't change the fact that I can't do a decent manual.
Also I'm heavy so 26 is prolly stronger. In the words of Chuck D don't believe the hype.
the massive push of new wheel sizes comes down to one very simple fact, that is that it is much harder to sell a person something they already have.
forks have gotten about as good as they can get.
better rear shocks have made rear suspension work well no matter what design it is.
brakes can send you into orbit with 1 fingers worth of pressure etc.
the big boys needed a new selling point so they started the whole 29er thing, a good few million $ later it caught on. suddenly everyone (americans) is selling their perfectly good 26" bikes and buying 29ers and the marketing men are overjoyed. move on a few years and the same marketing, sorry R&D department decide they need a new angle and suddenly 650b is the third coming, suddenly craigs list is awash with the old hat 29ers and any american seen on a trail not riding a 650b is scoffed at by his peers.
at the end of the day the fittest rider will be the fasted to the top of the mountain regardless of wheel size.
and the most skilled rider will be the fastest to the bottom regardless of wheel size.
29 or 26. I'm 42 years old not getting any more skillful and frankly you could stick me on a full carbon 10k uber bike with whatever wheels woudn't change the fact that I can't do a decent manual.
Also I'm heavy so 26 is prolly stronger. In the words of Chuck D don't believe the hype.
Don't believe the hype , just ride one with an open mind and make your own mind up .
sticking to the road limits I hope?
You're thwarting your own argument, there isn't a speed limit on the trails, so the faster bike is better?
nope the faster rider is better always will be.
at the end of the day the fittest rider will be the fasted to the top of the mountain regardless of wheel size.
and the most skilled rider will be the fastest to the bottom regardless of wheel size
This x 26
I don't want to go any faster. It hurts enough as it is when I have an off....
Seriously though, how extreme are some of the trails going to be soon? And is that too much for 99% of the non-awesome riders (I appreciate 100% of riders on STW are awesome.. 😛 ). Or will there be 29er only black trails?
You're thwarting your own argument,
no I am not.
if you have a mini cooper then there are a vast number of roads you can drive road within the speed limit and have fun.
if you have a supercar then there are a lot fewer roads you can have the as much fun on.
same goes with a bike.
if I go out on my cross bike then there are a vast number of trails that I can have fun on, for example flat trails through the local woods on a crosser can be as much fun and as edgy as some singletrack up on the hill on the HT.
If I then go out on, say a 5-spot, the local woods are a waste of time as they are too flat and so I need to go to some gnarlier singletrack on the hills to have as much 'edgy' fun as I got on the crosser in the woods across the road from my house.
Do you guys seriously think 29" wheels make trails that much easier??
Some sections of the trail are faster and more stable on my 29er, but some others are more suited to my 26er. Neither make the trail easier or less fun, just different.
nope the faster rider is better, always will be.
I agree, whatever wheel size they're on.
Seriously though, how extreme are some of the trails going to be soon?
Exteme natural trails have always existed if you've chosen to ride them. The terrain of the British Isles hasn't changed.
Trail centres seem to be getting smoother if you ask me with more asphalt surfacing etc.
case in point:
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/cyclocross-what-is-it-good-for
Seriously though, how extreme are some of the trails going to be soon?
there is a point here in that some steep sections which were fine on a HT or short-travel FS get chewed up into wide and very loose slopes by people flying down them on big-travel, big tyred bikes, as any slower and they wouldn't be having any fun on such a big bike.
Fair enough, but it also does a lot more damage to the trail than might have been done otherwise, and that might be why:
Trail centres seem to be getting smoother if you ask me with more asphalt surfacing etc.
as they have had to protect themselves against people doing ever more damage on the big bikes.
I haven't ridden a 29" bike, which is better for wheelies?
there is a point here in that some steep sections which were fine on a HT or short-travel FS get chewed up into wide and very loose slopes by people flying down them on big-travel, big tyred bikes, as any slower and they wouldn't be having any fun on such a big bike
I know you're trolling, but it is braking that tears up trails, not travel or tyres. If you don't need to brake on a big bike, you'll be doing less damage than dragging the brakes on an XC bike.
I rode a bunch on wetter than I was expecting DH trails on Sunday on my XC 29er that I'd normally ride on my patriot, and I bet I did more damage on the XC bike as I was out of my depth in parts that I'd have been completely in control in on my big(ger) bike.
I haven't ridden a 29" bike, which is better for wheelies?
I think as always it depends on which 29er and which 26er you're comparing.
I'm rubbish at wheelies, but in my experience it's slightly easier to initiate a wheelie or a manual on a 26er, but not impossible with the right technique on a 29er.
I had a chopper and it was rubbish for wheelies..... what does that tell you??
Frankers - Member
I had a chopper and it was rubbish for wheelies..... what does that tell you??
Your chopper is not working right
I know you're trolling, but it is braking that tears up trails, not travel or tyres
yes, but the slopes I am thinking of are ripped up by big tyres braking as they corner at speed, not the type of braking mark that an XC bike would cause on such a slope.
yes, but the slopes I am thinking of are ripped up by big tyres braking as they corner at speed, not the type of braking mark that an XC bike would cause on such a slope.
....why is this different to you using your Turner as opposed to others using a hardtail?
Actually, 29ers will help smooth out the braking ruts caused by 26ers, as they won't drop into the troughs and will work to erode the peaks and smooth them out. So all will benefit.
Here's my question. And I think this is the place to ask it.
The best and most welcome innovation in MTBing since suspension in my opinion (and that's what counts) is UST tyres.
I haven't seen any UST 29er tyres.. Am I right in thinking punctures are not a problem with the bigger wheels 😕 , or has UST just been ignored for these new style bicycles?
Fair point, I think the likes of specialized 2bliss, schwalbe TLR and Bonty TLR kinda do away with the need for the UST tyres of old
....why is this different to you using your Turner as opposed to others using a hardtail?
'cos my turner is a flux and runs the same forks and tyres as my HT, and so the only real difference is the 4inch of rear suspension verses the 2inch of seatpost suspension and steel chainstays on the HT.
And the flux is lighter.
[i]do away with the need for the UST tyres of old[/i]
Except they're not as good..
yes, but the slopes I am thinking of are ripped up by big tyres braking as they corner at speed, not the type of braking mark that an XC bike would cause on such a slope.
I run very big tyres on my rigid hardtail. I wouldn't even think of braking during a fast corner though.
As brakes get more powerful, you enter faster and brake harder later, into the corner.